1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. We are holding our 2022 Angel Ministry Drive now. Please consider signing up, or if you have any questions about being an Angel, use our staff application form. The world needs more prayer now, and it is a great way to help other members of the forums. :) To Apply...click here

Episcopal church marriages down 66% since 2003

Discussion in 'Scripture,Tradition,Reason-Anglican & Old Catholic' started by Ananias, Oct 25, 2020.

  1. VincentIII

    VincentIII New Member

    78
    +47
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    Would most Episcopal clergy be okay with the laity believing that all seven are sacraments? The belief might seem like a non-issue, but some clergy might say that bundling those other events with Baptism and Communion blurs the special significance of those two sacraments.
     
  2. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Episcopalian Supporter

    +4,221
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    It is always risky to try to speak for most clergy since I haven't met most of them. The Episcopal Church is not a dogmatic church. I suspect its clergy are quite used to divergent opinions on a variety of subjects, and would not be overly troubled by this belief among laity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +32,327
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    There's a lot of latitude tolerated among Anglicans, so of course there are pastors who would take one view of what you're asking about while there are others who would go the opposite way. And what they personally believe doesn't tell us whether they're concerned that some members of their congregation hold the other belief.

    Probably the most we could do in discussion is identify what the official belief is and what it is that most members accept.
     
  4. Deegie

    Deegie Priest of the Church Supporter

    250
    +135
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    US-Democrat
    The difference being that I don't believe TEC has any such official position that there are only two sacraments. If there were, I could not teach against it publicly.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +32,327
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    Well, it does.

    But as you probably know, no such official positions prevent anyone in The Episcopal Church, bishops included, from teaching against them.
     
  6. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,290
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    Didn't TEC drop the requirement for assent to the Articles some time ago? So now what they say is no longer seen as an official position in the same way it is in other places?
     
  7. Arcangl86

    Arcangl86 Newbie

    +5,791
    Anglican
    Single
    US-Green
    The Articles are considered historical documents. However the current BCP has a Catechism, which i think has official standing.
     
  8. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,290
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    And what does it say about the number of sacraments?
     
  9. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Episcopalian Supporter

    +4,221
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    From the Catechism, Book of Common Prayer, 1979

    Q. What are the sacraments?
    A. The sacraments are outward and visible signs of inward
    and spiritual grace, given by Christ as sure and certain
    means by which we receive that grace.

    Q. What are the two great sacraments of the Gospel?
    A. The two great sacraments given by Christ to his Church
    are Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist.

    Q. What is Holy Baptism?
    A. Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us
    as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body,
    the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God.

    Q. What is the Holy Eucharist?
    A. The Holy Eucharist is the sacrament commanded by
    Christ for the continual remembrance of his life, death,
    and resurrection, until his coming again.

    Other Sacramental Rites

    Q. What other sacramental rites evolved in the Church
    under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
    A. Other sacramental rites which evolved in the Church
    include confirmation, ordination, holy matrimony,
    reconciliation of a penitent, and unction.

    Q. How do they differ from the two sacraments of the
    Gospel?
    A. Although they are means of grace, they are not
    necessary for all persons in the same way that Baptism
    and the Eucharist are.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,290
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    Such Anglican ambiguity.
     
  11. Deegie

    Deegie Priest of the Church Supporter

    250
    +135
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Exactly. The Catechism was worded in such a way as to allow for both positions. Indeed, I think the last Q&A posted by @seeking.IAM above shows that the other five are still sacraments since they are described as "means of grace", which is basically the definition of a sacrament.
     
  12. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,290
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    I wouldn't go that far, myself (the rest of the bit about "given by Christ..." surely matters too?). But clearly TEC wants to leave a bit more wiggle room for a more-than-two sacraments position.

    Here, where we're required to assent to the Articles, I don't feel that position is open.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +32,327
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    They're placed in the most recent BCP in a section that is now entitled "Historical Documents."

    But I cannot find anywhere where the ordination ceremonies omit the vow to abide by the doctrines of the church or, for that matter, anywhere that states that the Articles are no longer what they had been previously.
     
  14. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,290
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    If - as I understand it - TEC clergy are no longer required to assent to the Articles under oath, then that lack of requirement for assent has changed the standing the Articles have. It's the oath of assent which binds the clergy not to speak/teach against the Articles; the ordination vow to abide by the doctrines of the church is much more general.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +32,327
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    Could be, but unless the Articles have been formally demoted in recent years, they are the church's doctrine, or part of it, and the candidates for ordination to both the priesthood and episcopate solemnly promise to conform to the church's doctrines.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  16. Deegie

    Deegie Priest of the Church Supporter

    250
    +135
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    US-Democrat
    The Articles are no longer part of the “doctrine, discipline, and worship” of TEC. At least not as any TEC clergy I know understand them.

    I’ve asked a few of my colleagues this weekend since this came up. And regardless of whether they are two sacrament or seven sacrament priests, every one has agreed that both positions are within the bounds of Episcopal orthodoxy.
     
  17. Deegie

    Deegie Priest of the Church Supporter

    250
    +135
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Sorry for the second post. But the term "doctrine" is specifically defined in the disciplinary canon of the national church as follows: "Doctrine shall mean the basic and essential teachings of the Church and is to be found in the Canon of Holy Scripture as understood in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds and in the sacramental rites, the Ordinal and Catechism of the Book of Common Prayer." (Canon IV.2)

    Thus, I think relegating the Articles to the Historical Documents section has the distinct effect of removing their doctrinal authority.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  18. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,290
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    While I know some Anglican clergy here who would personally disagree about one or two of the five, generally speaking it is understood that the Articles bind us to a two-sacrament position, publicly.

    But I mean, honestly, most of the time, the amount of difference it's going to make to parish life is pretty much zero... It's not as if we don't do the other five!
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +32,327
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    Not a problem.

    And that may be the real answer to this question.
     
  20. Silverback

    Silverback Well-Known Member

    +841
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    My wife and I did the same thing in 1986, just three friends attended...just as married with all the same issues associated with it.

    It cost $15.00...plus gas.
     
Loading...