Ephesians 6:12 How can there be spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?

Sunshine Locket

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places?

Thoughts?
 

com7fy8

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I think "heaven" can refer to the spiritual place where Jesus is seated on the throne of God, but also "heaven" can mean the physical earth's atmosphere and the sky and maybe the stars . . . what is higher than the earth and so it is "heavenly".

And so, it can mean the atmosphere . . . the air.

And, lo and behold :)ur Apostle Paul speaks of "the prince if the power of the air", in Ephesians 2:2 > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." So, the evil spirit of disobedience would be, I think, "the prince of the power of the air" . . . working in "heavenly places".

But "air" can be used to mean vanity and dumbness. Some people are called "airheads". So, Paul could mean that evil powers and principalities are in a very inferior realm, highly limited. "Heavenly", in the case of Satan, then, can mean airy . . . vain, unbelievably dumb . . . heavenly in the sense of being very high in vanity and dumbness and being limited by pride.

Satan was in Heaven, itself, and he was not satisfied > even with all the love and perfect circumstances of Heaven . . . still, he was grumping and griping > that is the definition of dumb. And there are people like this > you can do things very nicely for them, and still they will find something wrong, or you can do a lot that is nice but make one tiny-tiny slip-up, and this little imperfection will get the person totally out-of-sorts, ignoring all the good that you did, and the person even can get nasty - - because they got into expecting so much from you that they forget how you at times can make mistakes or just not be worrying about what someone expects in order to be spoiled; so they let some little thing spoil everything, for them. And ones like this, like Satan, could be not happy in Heaven.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

So, Sunshine Locket, I can see that "heavenly places", in Satan's case, means the realm of high-minded stupidity . . . so highly stupid, that it is as high as "heaven" . . . very high in pride and arrogance, and such conceit of judging who is good enough for him to love. So, "heavenly", in the case of the devil, means high in pride and conceit.

So, "heavenly" can refer to what is high of God's Heaven, or highly proud in Satan's ruined and worthless kingdom.

God is not the One causing the conceit of Satan's kingdom and people, but He is controlling things > "God resists the proud" (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5).

And it says Jesus has been seated "far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come." (Ephesians 1:21)

So, Jesus is Lord of all, over all, in absolute control of all. You can see, in Job chapter one, how Satan could not do anything to Job, unless Jesus said he could. So, God is not only Lord of Heaven, but also judging and managing the earthly and worldly "heavenly places" which are not Heaven > "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. So, those in their own pride's vain heavens are being resisted by God; they are not free to do as they jolly well please, like they may pretend and try to be.

So, yes, while we are living in this evil world, we can have peace with God and know we have Him resisting evil people, here. We are not on our own :) You might have noticed that no matter what evil does, there is always some kind of good that keeps showing up the evil. Even here, evil will do all it can to get us grumping and griping and discouraged, but always in our Creator's love we can creatively discover the good we can do > with God we can discover the good that we can do, while in us we can be sound and enjoying our Father's love and we ourselves can keep busy with loving any and all people, and not allow evil to decide how we are and how we see things > "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

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Ironhold

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There's a quote attributed to author John Bunyan which says, to paraphrase, "And here, I saw that there was a path to Hell even from the very gates of Heaven."

As Jesus noted, "Not everyone who calls upon God's name is truly a believer; in the last days, we'll have to tell a lot of them that we have no idea who they are."

One doesn't have to do very much digging to discover all sorts of scandal among the clergy and leadership of church after church. Small-town ministers sleeping around. Big-name televangelists staging false miracles for the cameras. And everything in between. There are probably even individual ministers who have body counts.

It could well be that the verse in question was warning people that not even the individual churches would be entirely safe from corruption.
 
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Shimshon

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Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Revelation 19:11
[The Rider on the White Horse] I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

Guess it makes me think that there IS 'war' in heaven. AND that Jesus comes out of heaven to 'make war'. I believe it would be because satan was cast down from heaven to earth. So the battle which raged in heaven has come to earth.

Remember, Messiah IS born from above, we are born from below. He returned to the place he was from, and promised to return again. He said he came the first time to 'deal with sin', and that he could come back again to put and end to it. His first covenant was the virus, administered to his people with the intent of producing a vaccine. His first coming was the download of the vaccine (the Gospel of the Kingdom), his second coming will be the master hitting he .exe file. This file executes the Fathers 'will' & 'testament', who sends the Messiah to 'make war' with those who rejected the vaccine and have made themselves vulnurable to the virus (sin that leads to death).
 
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he-man

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places? Thoughts?
Numero One. There is no literal Satan.

Numero Two: The verse you quote is meant to convey the idea that there is wickedness in HIGH places, where the Kings and Presidents of the world reside.

Eph 6:12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against
magistracy2, against powers, against the rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual guile4 in high places.
1 * Greek πάλη struggle, battle, grapple, bout, fight, combat, tussle, conflict, wrestle, wrestling,
match, strife,
2 * Greek αρχή magistracy, principles, doctrine, tenet, precepts, beginning, start, origination
3 * Greek σκότος obscurity, gloom, darkness
4 * Greek πονηριας guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; deceit; treachery slyness

In the Bible there is also verses which show that it is God, the Creator and Ruler of the whole universe, who is responsible for both the Good and the Bad, and not a devil or god of the underworld:
I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things. [Isaiah 45:5-7]
For God, the Bible, and for Judaism, to have an entity that competes with God, that has power and authority of his own in opposition to God, is to violate the basic idea of monotheism.

For Jews, anything that even remotely conflicts with the idea that God is One and Indivisible will be rejected because it precludes true, pure, monotheism. The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths. The Bible speaks of a character known as The Satan, who acts like a prosecuting attorney, or a district attorney, in God's court. However, The Satan has no power or authority in and of himself, rather he must get permission from the Judge, God, to do anything.

Now, of course, Judaism and the Bible tell of a character called, "The Satan." Every time the term is used in the Hebrew Scriptures, it reads, "HaSaTaN," which means "THE Satan." However, the concept of The Satan is radically different from the idea of the Devil. For Christians, the devil has power and authority in and of himself. However, in the Bible, The Satan only has power granted by God, and has no authority in and of himself. For the devil, or satan, to have power and authority is to have more than one god, as we saw above concerning the Greeks and the Romans.

The Satan is described in only a few places in the Hebrew Scriptures. In every instance, he works FOR God, not against God, and must get permission from God for everything that he does. Chronicles, Job, Psalms, and Zechariah are the only places where The Satan is mentioned.

In the following quotation from the Biblical Book of Job, please take note of who is doing the talking, as The Satan asks God for permission to conduct a sting operation against Job:
And the Eternal said unto <the>Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou <The Satan> movedst me <God> against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered the Eternal, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand <God's hand> now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Eternal said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. [Job 2:3-6]

In the above verses, The Satan must get permission from God to perform this "sting operation" on Job. The Satan has no power or authority of his own, who must also obtain permission from The Judge for anything he does. Furthermore, the Biblical text paints this same picture of the Satan, when it uses the character of The Satan

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Eternal, and <the>Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the Eternal said unto Satan, "The Eternal rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Eternal that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" [Zechariah 3:1-2]

Set thou a wicked man over him, and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned, and let his prayer become sin. [Psalm 109:6-7]
What Jews Believe (Rabbi Stuart Federow 2003)
 
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Evergreen48

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places?

Thoughts?

I believe the "principalities" was referring to the chief rulers of the various cities and principalities in which those Christians in that day and time lived. In this place Paul is addressing those Christians, and not Christians of our present day.

Spirituality does not always refer to God and his workings, but can refer to wicked, or evil spirits which would abide in the prevailing darkness of that particular age (aión) in which the apostles taught the early churches.

The "wickedness in high places" pertained to those who had joined the christian ranks, but had gone astray from the true gospel. 1 John 2:18-19 speaks of those who had once resided in the "heavenly places". They are called anti Christs because they denied that Jesus was the Christ (Messiah) and that he was the Son of God.


Eph. 1:3. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: "

Eph. 1:19. "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, (aión) but also in that which is to come: "

Eph. 2:6. "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Eph. 3:8. "Unto me, [Paul] who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10. To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, "
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Numero One. There is no literal Satan.

Numero Two: The verse you quote is meant to convey the idea that there is wickedness in HIGH places, where the Kings and Presidents of the world reside.



What Jews Believe (Rabbi Stuart Federow 2003)
  • I believe the "principalities" was referring to the chief rulers of the various cities and principalities in which those Christians in that day and time lived. In this place Paul is addressing those Christians, and not Christians of our present day.
    [*]
Intesting posts.

That would include Judas the betrayer and the Chief Priests he brought with him to arrest Jesus...IMHO

http://www.christianforums.com/t7328728-3/#post50081446
John 14 and the "ruler/chief" of World

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS AND APOSTLES VS THE CORRUPT JUDEAN RULERS

John 14:30
"Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736) the Chief/arcwn <758> of this world
and in Me not he is having anything. [John 18:3/1 John 2:18]

John 16:11
"About yet judging, that the Chief/arcwn <758> of this the world has been judged"

John 18:3
Judas therefore having taken the band and officers out of the Chief-Priests/arc-ierewn <749>and Pharisees,
doth-come/ercetai <2064> (5736) thither with torches and lamps and weapons
[John 14:30/16:11]


.
 
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Mark51

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Peter speaks of these disobedient spirits as being in “pits of dense darkness,” (Tartarus is a condition rather than a particular location), while Paul speaks of them as being in “heavenly places” from which they exercise a rule of darkness as wicked spirit forces. (2 Peter 2:4; Ephesians 6:10-12) The dense darkness similarly is not literally a lack of light but results from their being cut off from illumination by God as renegades and outcasts from his family, with only a dark outlook as to their eternal destiny.

The latter part of the text in Greek literally reads: “Toward the spiritual (things) the wickedness in the heavenly [places].” Most modern translations recognize that the reference here is not simply to something abstract, “spiritual wickedness” (KJ), but refers to wickedness carried out by spirit persons. Thus, we have such renderings as: “the spirit-forces of evil on high” (AT), “the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (RS), “the spiritual army of evil in the heavens” (JB), “the superhuman forces of evil in the heavens” (NE).

Satan and his demons had not been cast out of heaven at time of Paul’s writings.- Revelation 12:7-9
 
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Ripheus27

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Well, like all good (or is it bad?) UT'ers I'm going to throw my pet theory into the mix of this thread: maybe the reference is to the demonic angel who binds the Dragon for the term of the Millennium, i.e. Asmodeus/Apollyon. (The equation of Asmodeus, from the Book of Tobit, with the Destroyer from the Johannine apocalypse, is suggested by relevant etymologies, or so an online Catholic encyclopedia indicates.) For Apollyon seems to descend from the stars to open the gates to some sort of abyss (the pre-Lake of Fire hellscape?), and if (as I've elsewhere argued) Apollyon, as Abaddon, is equivalent to the pseudo-personified Death and Hell that are cast into the Lake of Fire in the end, then we have at hand an extremely, extremely, extremely wicked creature (the embodiment of what Paul refers to as "the last enemy to be destroyed") who occupies some sort of heavenly--starry--abode, not just the atmosphere (where Satan/Lucifer/the Devil/the Dragon/whoever possibly resides).
 
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Ripheus27

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Satan and his demons had not been cast out of heaven at time of Paul’s writings.- Revelation 12:7-9

What about Jesus seeing Lucifer (is it?) falling like a star or whatever from heaven? Maybe the Book of Revelation is a chronology that includes already-past events, described from an eschatonic POV.
 
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southcountry

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places?

Thoughts?

There are entities that reside here and have done so for a very very long time. They know some of the secrets of creation and they know enough to get into your head and tempt you to do evil.

You probably have a few hanging around you at this moment.
 
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he-man

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There are entities that reside here and have done so for a very very long time. You probably have a few hanging around you at this moment.
You mean entities like Obama?

Eph 6:12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against
magistracy2, against powers, against the rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual guile4 in high places.

1 * Greek &#960;&#940;&#955;&#951; struggle, battle, grapple, bout, fight, combat, tussle, conflict, wrestle, wrestling,
match, strife,
2 * Greek &#945;&#961;&#967;&#942; magistracy, principles, doctrine, tenet, precepts, beginning, start, origination
3 * Greek &#963;&#954;&#972;&#964;&#959;&#962; obscurity, gloom, darkness
4 * Greek &#960;&#959;&#957;&#951;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#962; guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; deceit; treachery slyness
 
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southcountry

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You mean entities like Obama?

Eph 6:12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against
magistracy2, against powers, against the rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual guile4 in high places.

1 * Greek &#960;&#940;&#955;&#951; struggle, battle, grapple, bout, fight, combat, tussle, conflict, wrestle, wrestling,
match, strife,
2 * Greek &#945;&#961;&#967;&#942; magistracy, principles, doctrine, tenet, precepts, beginning, start, origination
3 * Greek &#963;&#954;&#972;&#964;&#959;&#962; obscurity, gloom, darkness
4 * Greek &#960;&#959;&#957;&#951;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#962; guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; deceit; treachery slyness

Obama is the manifestation of numerous demons in the flesh. But they do work through the "power of the air", in other words, they can have access to your consciousness from their habitation.
 
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ananda

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places?

Thoughts?
Not everything in the heavens are good, not everything beneath is bad.
 
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patrick jane

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places? It's high places. High places of power ON EARTH.

Thoughts?
Try King James. It will make more sense.
Ephesians 6:12-20 KJV -

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. EDIT: The spiritual wickedness in high places (satan and his minions) use men and women to enact and carry out their evil deceptions and actions. So it's both, evil humans and satan and company.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
 
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patrick jane

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Ephesians chapter 6 speaks to people in all ages as many other scriptures of warning. These scriptures speak to the truth of God being hidden and withheld from mankind. Romans chapter 1, Matthew 24 and many other scriptures that tell us exactly what to expect from satan and his minions.
 
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patrick jane

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Try King James. It will make more sense.

Ephesians 6:12-20 KJV -
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. EDIT: The spiritual wickedness in high places (satan and his minions) use men and women to enact and carry out their evil deceptions and actions. So it's both, evil humans and satan and company.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Edited. I think this is an important thread to discuss in any age. It especially addresses today's world.
 
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ViaCrucis

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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places?

Thoughts?

The concept of "the heavens" refers to everything "above" the earth. The idea of "heaven" as God's "place" is derived at largely by the idea that God is bigger and beyond everything we see. Solomon said, "The heavens, not even the heavens of heavens, can contain You." The phrase "heavens of heavens" is a common Hebraism, we see it in other examples such as "king of kings" and "lord of lords" and "God of gods" and "holy of holies". It indicates the utmost of a thing, which is why the Holy of Holies is often known as the Most Holy Place; "heavens of heavens" thus can be thought of as "the highest heavens". It's the utmost, the highest, the most sublime--God is higher than even the highest of the high; He is greater than the greatest of the great, etc.

The spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places does not mean "Heaven" as in the idea of God's abode. Earlier, in Ephesians 2 St. Paul describes the devil as the "prince of the power of the air".

The basic sense is that this present age is held under the tyranny of sin, death, and the devil; and the devil and his agents exercise their influence in the world. The earth doesn't belong to the devil, after all, Scripture is clear, "The earth is the LORD's and all it contains". But the devil exercises his evil dominion over the world through sin and death. As the "prince of the power of the air", as the "ruler" of this present age. Which is why our contest is not with the human powers and authorities, but with the underlying darkness behind the powers and principalities of this world. But Christ is already Lord and Victor over all of these--Christ has already conquered the world, He has undone death, and set hell to ruin, and bound the devil in chains. Christ is victor over all these things--though the devil still seeks to exercise his cruel hate in the world, he is already defeated. Our fight, therefore, is with an already defeated foe.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places?
How can that be? When Satan is lord of this earth and God is King of the heavenly places?

Thoughts?


First of all, Lord have mercy on all of these outlandish posts, going into such in-depth explanations when none is needed. It seems that the meaning is simply that heavenly places refers to the sky, or the air, not Heaven, the throne of God. This is not the heavenly places Paul is referring to, nor can it be. Evil cannot dwell in the midst of holiness; otherwise, it would be utterly consumed. Where Christ is, evil cannot be since He is the light which overcomes the darkness.

Where do I get my interpretation? Simple: the earliest Christians have always taught us that demons dwell in the air around us.
 
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