Entire Sanctification Biblical?

[Bible Highlighter]

I would be encouraging you and helping you as much as possible to study the Greek for yourself like a Berean, not just tell you what to believe.

The only way that can happen is if I learn how to speak and write Modern Greek amongst a culture of Greek people. I would have to be regarded by the Greek culture as an expert translator. Then and only then could I even attempt to tackle the Biblical Greek and or offer word translations in Greek to people (But I do not believe God is calling me to do such a thing at this time). If I was not an expert translator of Greek, and I were to offer a Greek opinion, I am acting like an expert when I am not. It is wrong. You said yourself that my translation of the English Bible would be gibberish if I tried to translate a Brazillian Portuguese Bible. Why do you think it is any different with your attempt in doing the same thing with the Greek? You don't know the language and you are not quallified to offer an opinion in regards to the Greek (When you do not know that language).

Jason, just because God was choosing the poor to become rich in faith, that didn't mean He wanted them to remain in ignorance. That's too far a jump. Almost nobody had personal copies of the Torah, or the epistles or gospels for that matter. But if any poor brothers had earnestness to seek the scriptures for themselves, they most certainly would have been invited to the study of God's word with even the most respected elders in the churches, and very much encouraged to do so.

I am talking about people alive today. The poor today. The poor man today who is homeless and has only a Bible in his hand should not be at a disadvantage because he does not have the same resources that a person who is financially "well off." Also, Jesus said beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who "trans-scribed" the law or the Scriptures. So when somebody acts like a scholar, we should beware of them (according to Jesus).


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[Bible Highlighter]

"And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly." (Deuteronomy 27:8).

"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, so he may run that reads it." (Habakkuk 2:2).

"Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:" (2 Corinthians 3:12).

"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father." (John 16:25).


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[Hidden In Him]

The only way that can happen is if I learn how to speak and write Modern Greek amongst a culture of Greek people. I would have to be regarded by the Greek culture as an expert translator. Then and only then could I even attempt to tackle the Biblical Greek and or offer word translations in Greek to people (But I do not believe God is calling me to do such a thing at this time).

Simply not so. You don't have to master 6 years of Greek, or "write Modern Greek amongst a culture of Greek people," to become very proficient in it. Everything is now parsed out already in numerous reference works. All you'd have to do is purchase a few good Lexicons, Liddel-Scott especially, a good Greek concordance.... You're putting way to many strictures and stipulations on yourself and everyone else to being able to study the scriptures. I should also note that you apparently hold the KJV translators and scribes who penned the Received Text in far too high a regard.

You said yourself that my translation of the English Bible would be gibberish if I tried to translate a Brazillian Portuguese Bible. Why do you think it is any different with your attempt in doing the same thing with the Greek? You don't know the language and you are not quallified to offer an opinion in regards to the Greek (When you do not know that language).

Here is your biggest mistake. You turn from disqualifying yourself from being qualified to study the original to disqualifying everyone else, which essentially throws study of the original in the trashcan.

I am talking about people alive today. The poor today. The poor man today who is homeless and has only a Bible in his hand should not be at a disadvantage because he does not have the same resources that a person who is financially "well off."

You think the poor are worse off today than they were back then??

Also, Jesus said beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who "trans-scribed" the law or the Scriptures. So when somebody acts like a scholar, we should beware of them (according to Jesus).

Again buddy, in one fell swoop you cast out ALL Christian scholarship. You just can't do that. It reduces us all to idiots, and I don't feel that way about you or I or any number of believers I've met. I find us to actually be brighter than the average person in the world because we have the Living God guiding us by His Spirit, and teaching us through His word.

I dunno. We just have two completely different perspectives on things.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I originally took it to mean you said that the believer has to first overcome the lusts of the flesh and THEN they are to add virtue, faith, etc. I disagree with that position. In verse 5 within 2 Peter 1:3-8, I believe the words in the KJV that say "beside all this" is actually saying "in view of (or as a result of) overcoming your sin you will add virtue, faith, etc. (As the New Living Translation says). I do not believe 2 Peter 1:3-8 is saying faith, virtue, etc. is an addition to AFTER you overcome the lusts of the flesh. For it takes faith and virtue to overcome the lusts of the flesh. For example: 1 John 2:10 NIV says, "Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble." So by loving our brother there is no cause within us then to stumble. It is a method of not sinning and it is a method of loving (Which is virtuous and of the faith).

Now, I believe the KJV is the perfect Word of God for our day (and final Word of authority), but some of it's language comes from the 1600's and it can be a little confusing if not read alongside Modern Translations. The words, "beside all this" can be easily misunderstood. It is merely saying, "On top of that" or "Furthermore" in reference to making another point and it is not talking of about a mathematical sequence of things taking place here. At least, that is my 2 cents worth anyway.

I hope it helps.
And may God bless you.


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Again as I stated before I wasn't trying to promote that one needs to be perfectly cleansed to add faith and stuff. I appreciate the input though but I just worded my initial comment poorly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Simply not so. You don't have to master 6 years of Greek, or "write Modern Greek amongst a culture of Greek people," to become very proficient in it. Everything is now parsed out already in numerous reference works. All you'd have to do is purchase a few good Lexicons, Liddel-Scott especially, a good Greek concordance.... You're putting way to many strictures and stipulations on yourself and everyone else to being able to study the scriptures. I should also note that you apparently hold the KJV translators and scribes who penned the Received Text in far too high a regard.

Again, you said yourself that if I were to try and make an English Bible out of using a Brazillian Portuguese Bible it would be gibberish. This is the same thing you are doing. But for somehow you do not think it is different. Yet, it is the same thing!

Here is your biggest mistake. You turn from disqualifying yourself from being qualified to study the original to disqualifying everyone else, which essentially throws study of the original in the trashcan.

Again, no. If I could speak and write Modern Greek and be approved by the people of Greece to do so as an official translator by them, then I could offer you opinions about what the Bible says in Biblical Greek because they are very similar. If not, I am making guesses based on my own human reasoning without knowing that language personally for myself. A personal study will just be a hit and miss kind of a study. The people of Greece will shake their heads at your interpretation because you really do not know how to speak and write their language.

You think the poor are worse off today than they were back then??

It is not a matter of importance it is a matter of reality. God deals with the poor today just as he dealt with the poor back then. But the poor back then are not like the poor of today. The poor of today in America have English Bibles that they can get (But it is not within their world or realm to always deal with Greek tools). Also, the simple farmer who has no internet access and just reads his Bible every day is not going to be at an disadvantage because he does not have Greek tools at his disposal. God nowhere tells us in His Word to study another language in order to understand Him better. Yet, you and many Christians say you cannot understand the Bible without studying the Greek. This is wrong. I understand my Bible just fine in reading it in the English.

Again buddy, in one fell swoop you cast out ALL Christian scholarship. You just can't do that. It reduces us all to idiots, and I don't feel that way about you or I or any number of believers I've met. I find us to actually be brighter than the average person in the world because we have the Living God guiding us by His Spirit, and teaching us through His word.

I dunno. We just have two completely different perspectives on things.

I am not saying all scholarship is bad. But there are times when scholars are way off base on certain verses. They also do not all agree with each other, either. The key is to ask God for the understanding of His Word and to study to show yourself approved unto God on your own. This would be a simple study of God's Word in the English by looking at the context and cross references. No Greek interlinear is needed. No scholar is needed. Just you, God, and your Bible (in English).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Do you know how to translate a page in English into Greek (With the people of Greece agreeing with that translation)? If not, then you are not qualified to act like you know how to translate Greek for us in our Bibles. You are merely guessing without really knowing the language.

I mean, would you expect to know more about French than a person who lives in Paris?
Would not a person in France correct you if you tried to use the French Bible to make an English Bible? No doubt they would because you do not know French. You have to first be an expert translator of the French language before you can translate anything in their language.


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[Hidden In Him]

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Think I'm gonna let this one go, but I hope you have a good day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Think I'm gonna let this one go, but I hope you have a good day.

Yes, that would be wise. But if you are going to talk about the Bible with me in the future, use a Bible that we both can read and understand (Whereby you are not giving me Greek words that you really do not even know yourself for sure because you do not speak or write Greek fluently). So stick to your Bible in the English if you decide to converse with me again please. You are not an official translator of the Greek language (with the people of Greece agreeing with you).


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[Bible Highlighter]

This would sort of be like letting your doctor (who has no real training in car mechanics) to work on the engine of your car.

Sorry, I am not going to let you work on my car if you are only a doctor.
Anymore than I will let you try to translate the Bible in Greek for me, when you are not an official translator of the Greek language. You are not qualified. Doing your own personal study does not mean anything. The people of Greece will no doubt correct you many times. Why? Because you do not know how to officially speak and write Greek amongst the Greek people.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Think I'm gonna let this one go, but I hope you have a good day.

Yes, and may you have a good day, as well;
And may God's love shine upon you, too.



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[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, getting back on topic.

Here are some verses on the word "perfect" for folks to consider in regards to "Sinless Perfectionism."

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

"Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).

James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).



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[Bible Highlighter]

And here are more verses to consider.

74 "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life."
(Luke 1:74-75).

"Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness." (Psalms 29:2).

"For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God's discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness" (Hebrews 12:10 NLT).

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, ..." (1 John 3:3).

"...Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8).

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).

"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." (Daniel 12:10).


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[DeepWater]

Is the doctrine of Entire Sanctification a Biblical doctrine?

Entire Sanctification teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life.

There is a kind of elitism in the doctrine of Entire Sanctification, a feeling that those who have achieved moral perfection are somehow greater than other Christians.

Isn't Biblical sanctification a LIFELONG PROCESS that is completed only when we go to Heaven??
View attachment 194814

The entire sanctification doctrine is generally just legalism that means well, but produces only self rightness and a fear of losing your salvation.
That is the "Fruit" of this teaching, within its adherents.
Avoid it.

Avoid any idea that you are sanctified by your behavior, as this is impossible.
The only way to be sanctified before GOD is by Jesus Himself being your sanctification because you are "in Christ" and "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

Now, you are to "present your body a living sacrifice", and you are told to "Be holy as God is Holy".
But those are your goals, and they are not your perfected state, in and of yourself.

 

[Open Heart]

Truly would like to see his justification from the scriptures.

God commands us to be perfect as the Father is perfect.

 

[Hidden In Him]

God commands us to be perfect as the Father is perfect.

Yes. This is the second best defense of all the verses/passages listed, but also has its problems, not the least of which is that the word "perfect" here is in indeed a command, yet does not necessitate the possibility of it actually being attainable in this life (Read Post #5).

Moreover, God also commands us, "Be Holy, for I am Holy." Are we commanded to be holy in this life? Most certainly we are. Yet the command seems to very clearly imply "Be just as Holy as I AM, and I AM the Holy of Holies, whom the angels are forever circling above proclaiming 'Holy, Holy. Holy, [is] the Lord God Almighty!' and will do so for all eternity."

I actually believe this will indeed be attainable in the next life, but here in the flesh in this life? Please... as you'll see I had a bit of a go round with RedBlue over this matter, and one thing he was absolutely right about was that perfectionism in this life is, for lack of kinder words, kind of a joke.

Anyway, just kinda mystified by the position, and especially mystified with poor Jason0047, who appears to be under some form of bondage to it. No doubt he'll get to posting like a madman again trying to respond to that statement, but I agree with RedBlue: It's destructive and misleading, and has the potential to set many otherwise wonderful believers up for crushing defeat and disillusionment.

 

[Open Heart]

the word "perfect" here is in indeed a command, yet does not necessitate the possibility of it actually being attainable in this life

This is why we have the concept of Purgatory.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is why we have the concept of Purgatory.

Well that's excellent. Not saying I accept the doctrine, but at least the heart of it is in a good place by your statement. My personal view from a protestant standpoint would be that He simply accepts us and receives us into Heaven through the blood of Jesus Christ, and then lovingly leads all of us, in our various stages of spiritual maturity and development, towards the throne of His Power and All-Consuming Glory, each in our own time as we submit ourselves deeper and deeper into the Father's Love through increasing obedience and intimacy with Him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is why we have the concept of Purgatory.

Not from Scripture,
not needed,
not "we" - only some we don't agree with.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I actually believe this will indeed be attainable in the next life, but here in the flesh in this life? Please... as you'll see I had a bit of a go round with RedBlue over this matter, and one thing he was absolutely right about was that perfectionism in this life is, for lack of kinder words, kind of a joke.

There are so few examples today,
to see this,
it is required to look in Scripture first (or may be the only place someone will see this, < shrugs > for a time/ most of their life/ all of their life ....... God knows ) ....

In Scripture the examples of the faithful ones, the blameless ones, the holy (set apart) ones, the sanctified ones, the ekklesia - called out, chosen ones ....
is very very different than what is usually taught , seen or experienced 'today' unless
... unless.... like Corrie ten Boom , someone sees it. In others. God's Work. God's people. God's Doing. God's Accomplishment.

Dogmatic ? no. Doctrine ? no. Reality ? sort of - reality for most people does not include all true doctrine, all true practice/ or life/, all true power (of God),
as the disciples and ekklesia
in the New Testament and
since then lived by and in God's Grace and Power and Choice.

So many descriptions of God's People, in the New Testament (and Old Testament too) ,
is contrary to what almost everyone is taught today,
even more contrary to how everyone is raised today (surrounded by unreal, undisciplined, untrained in righteousness, multitudes).

Oh, there were not , no not ever, A LOT of sanctified believers like in the book of ACTS. (etc),
but they were real, true, and written IN GOD'S WORD.

THAT is where to look ....... IN GOD'S WORD.

(it does help when someone SEES ekklesia in person, for real, completely mature, or blameless anyway, in God's Way of Life,
as written in Scripture ---- as seen in Scripture) ...
but many might not have the opportunity to see this first in person - < shrugs > I don't know numbers-wise actually - but
at least in GOD'S WORD, unchanged, forever, the testimony is there, even
if someone cannot see in person others living as they did in the New Testament assemblies,
they may see in God's Word ....
(like the few ones in the letters in Revelation, speaking to those who have held fast to HIS NAME and not given up,
not bent their knee to greed or idols or anything else)....

 

[Hidden In Him]

Oh, there were not , no not ever, A LOT of sanctified believers like in the book of ACTS. (etc),
but they were real, true, and written IN GOD'S WORD.

Yes, regarding your argument, particularly at the moment of Pentecost. But such moments were fleeting, even at the dawn of the Spirit's outpouring. And it will come again with ever-increasing intensity in the decades ahead. But even then, as impermanent events in the ongoing strengthening of the growing end-time church. Will they get to a place of nearly or completely perfected holiness and sanctification, especially the 144,000 before Christ returns for His bride? Hmmmm.... possible, but I don't think this matter should be concerning us right now. Without tremendous intimacy with God having been built up between the Bridegroom and the Bride, it is impossible, and right now we're walking around practically spiritually naked and ashamed, let alone fully clothed in the Holiness of God.