Entire Sanctification Biblical?

[Bible Highlighter]

"Free from sin" is precisely what happens, Spiritually, when one is born again!!!

We can't mix the mental with the Spiritual!!!

Not true.

God is into order and logic.

In fact, Jesus made many real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. These examples are logical and they make sense. They are called parables.


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[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Whatever is not of faith is sin. When a believer seeks to be perfect by God's Word they are seeking to reach a state whereby they have crucified the affections and lusts. We are told to perfect holiness in the fear of God in 2 Corinthians 7:1.

When we read 2 Peter 1:3-8, the words "besides all this" in verse 5 is merely language that we would use ourselves at the beginning of another paragraph to make an added point. Sort of like "Furthermore" or "On top of that.", etc. Modern Translations help to clarify what is being said even more. The NLT says, "In view of all this,". So it is not saying "after one overcomes lust they add virtue, etc.". That wouldn't even make sense. One is adding virtue and faith by overcoming their lust, my friend.


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Oh no I worded that wrong. I wasn't saying you can't add faith or kindness or whatever when you're in sin cause some still deal with certain sins even after salvation that's why 1 john 2:1 says sin not but if ye sin ye have an advocate with the father", because some will hold on to things. What I'm saying is typically those are things that you add over a lifetime while sin you usually deal with early on in your walk. Lastly though I'm not saying don't seek overall perfection the Bible says "be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect", to even encourage us to shoot for the moon . To try and be perfect in every way and be as righeouess as we can in this life

 

[HereIStand]

Sometime ago on the Book Club sub-forum, I went through a chapter by chapter discussion of the a book on sanctification with a another poster. These posts can be be found here. Based on the book (Possessed by God) that we discussed, it's helpful to see sanctification as both/and rather than either/or. Meaning that it is both a one time event and a lifelong continuation. One verse that's helpful in seeing this is I Corinthians 6:11, "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

 

[Open Heart]

Wesley preached it? How do you know?

All the Wesleyan spinnoffs, Methodism, Church of the Nazarene, Church of God (Indiana) believe in the possibility of total Sanctification in this life.

Catholicism teaches that it is a possibility, although for most of us, we die still in a state of imperfection. That is what Purgatory is for.

 

[Hidden In Him]

All the Wesleyan spinnoffs, Methodism, Church of the Nazarene, Church of God (Indiana) believe in the possibility of total Sanctification in this life. Catholicism teaches that it is a possibility, although for most of us, we die still in a state of imperfection. That is what Purgatory is for.

Ok, thanks for the heads up. I appreciate it. I knew he wasn't making it up. I was just hoping for some source material. But that sounds like proof enough to me...

Truly would like to see his justification from the scriptures.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Not true... you can check out the verses for yourself in prayer by clicking on the following spoiler button.

A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism:

1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

Jason, I read through the list of verses you provided through the link button. My response would be that the only one that really holds weight is this first one, though I would have to go look at the Greek to see exact translation. My guess is the words "without fault" in v.5 are in all likelihood better translated as "blameless," but I'll have to go check.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Sanctification... is both a one time event and a lifelong continuation. One verse that's helpful in seeing this is I Corinthians 6:11, "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Yes, this would be my position, and there are more scriptures to support it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh no I worded that wrong. I wasn't saying you can't add faith or kindness or whatever when you're in sin cause some still deal with certain sins even after salvation that's why 1 john 2:1 says sin not but if ye sin ye have an advocate with the father", because some will hold on to things. What I'm saying is typically those are things that you add over a lifetime while sin you usually deal with early on in your walk. Lastly though I'm not saying don't seek overall perfection the Bible says "be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect", to even encourage us to shoot for the moon . To try and be perfect in every way and be as righeouess as we can in this life

I originally took it to mean you said that the believer has to first overcome the lusts of the flesh and THEN they are to add virtue, faith, etc. I disagree with that position. In verse 5 within 2 Peter 1:3-8, I believe the words in the KJV that say "beside all this" is actually saying "in view of (or as a result of) overcoming your sin you will add virtue, faith, etc. (As the New Living Translation says). I do not believe 2 Peter 1:3-8 is saying faith, virtue, etc. is an addition to AFTER you overcome the lusts of the flesh. For it takes faith and virtue to overcome the lusts of the flesh. For example: 1 John 2:10 NIV says, "Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble." So by loving our brother there is no cause within us then to stumble. It is a method of not sinning and it is a method of loving (Which is virtuous and of the faith).

Now, I believe the KJV is the perfect Word of God for our day (and final Word of authority), but some of it's language comes from the 1600's and it can be a little confusing if not read alongside Modern Translations. The words, "beside all this" can be easily misunderstood. It is merely saying, "On top of that" or "Furthermore" in reference to making another point and it is not talking of about a mathematical sequence of things taking place here. At least, that is my 2 cents worth anyway.

I hope it helps.
And may God bless you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I read through the list of verses you provided through the link button. My response would be that the only one that really holds weight is this first one, though I would have to go look at the Greek to see exact translation. My guess is the words "without fault" in v.5 are in all likelihood better translated as "blameless," but I'll have to go check.

Please take no offense, but I really do not think people should study Biblical Greek until they properly know their own Bible in English thru prayer and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Why? Well, if a person knows how to defend the Bible in English, they would just simply give me the context and cross references to prove their point (Instead of hiding behind a language they really do not know). I also believe Christians should not put forth Biblical Greek definitions unless they know how to speak and write modern day Greek within the country of Greece (or within a Greek speaking group or village), too. For one, the English does not conflict with the Greek. For the KJV was translated from the Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT). Sometimes a normal conversation (in our own language) is impossible here with God's Word because folks act like they know Greek (When they have not grown up speaking or writing such a language). My encouragement to all Christians is stick to a language that we can all understand (And whereby it is not so easy to change the meaning of certain words whereby other people would not know). For in my opinion, if a person cannot translate a page in English into the Greek language (with the people who live in Greece agreeing with that person's translation), they are not truly qualified to offer any opinion in what the Greek says in the Bible. In other words, they are merely guessing. An interlinear with a concordance gives us multiple definitions. These interlinears are not by any means the Word of God itself. They are men's opinions on what these words mean. James Strong and his buddies were not divinely inspired to write the work that they did. Furthermore, a Christian also has to select and choose which definition THEY think is best, as well. How do they know they are making the right selection? Do they truly know how to write and speak Greek? This is why I encouage every believer to learn to speak and write among the Greek culture before putting forth any knowledge of what they think that language actually says in our Bibles.

Granted, Biblical Greek and Modern Greek are not exactly identical, but there are many similarities that will help a Christian to understand what the Bible is saying in the Greek plainly (if that is truly a believer's pursuit).

Looking at Modern Translations and comparing it with the KJV (Which I believe is our final Word of authority) is the best alternative course of action in my opinion.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I read through the list of verses you provided through the link button. My response would be that the only one that really holds weight is this first one, though I would have to go look at the Greek to see exact translation. My guess is the words "without fault" in v.5 are in all likelihood better translated as "blameless," but I'll have to go check.

Also, the word "perfect" actually means perfect unless you can show by the context that this is not the case.

Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus makes a comparison with the Father in relation to the word "perfect." To say that this is not talking about "perfect" is to attack the perfect and good character of God the Father. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. This is what Jesus desires of His saints here in this life. It is why Jesus says in John 17:19 as to the reason why He sanctified himself. He did so that we may also be sanctified. Jesus was holy and sinless. So Christ's sanctification or holy living here on this walk was perfect. Jesus calls us for this same kind of holy and perfect walk.


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[Hidden In Him]

Please take no offense, but I really do not think people should study Biblical Greek until they properly know their own Bible in English thru prayer and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Why? Well, if a person knows how to defend the Bible in English, they would just simply give me the context and cross references to prove their point (Instead of hiding behind a language they really do not know).

Jason, I promise I wouldn't be trying to offend you, but something tells me you would be very offended by my responses to your argument here.

I also believe Christians should not put forth Biblical Greek definitions unless they know how to speak and write modern day Greek within the country of Greece (or within a Greek speaking group or village), too

And here.

For one, the English does not conflict with the Greek

And here.

For the KJV was translated from the Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT).

And here in spades.

ometimes a normal conversation (in our own language) is impossible here with God's Word because folks act like they know Greek (When they have not grown up speaking or writing such a language).

And here.

My encouragement to all Christians is stick to a language that we can all understand (And whereby it is not so easy to change the meaning of certain words whereby other people would not know).

My reply to this I would have to be so careful on as to hardly be even able to say it.

For in my opinion, if a person cannot translate a page in English into the Greek language (with the people who live in Greece agreeing with that person's translation), they are not truly qualified to offer any opinion in what the Greek says in the Bible. In other words, they are merely guessing

Jason, there is no point in my going on reading. Please reconsider what you are doing. We will give account unto God, and I don't want you being grieved for having taught falsehoods. Your position is such that no one can correct you. You would never receive it. In such a state, neither can the Lord.

I promise you I'm neither offended nor hoping to offend you. Only to warn you about what you are doing. You are gravely mishandling the word of Almighty God.

In love, and in sincere hope of your repentance unto an acknowledgment of the truth,
HiH

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sometime ago on the Book Club sub-forum, I went through a chapter by chapter discussion of the a book on sanctification with a another poster. These posts can be be found here. Based on the book (Possessed by God) that we discussed, it's helpful to see sanctification as both/and rather than either/or. Meaning that it is both a one time event and a lifelong continuation. One verse that's helpful in seeing this is I Corinthians 6:11, "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

In the mention of Hebrews 10:10 (within that thread discussion): I disagree with the "once for all" interpretation as meaning "for all time" whereby a person would erroneously think that all sin is forgiven them, including present and future sin. I believe the International Standard Version helps to clarify what the KJV is actually saying here. For it says,

"By God's will we have been sanctified once and for all through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus, the Messiah." (Hebrews 10:10 ISV).

Meaning, the words "once and for all" is in reference to "finally" or "at last." For Jesus is the propitation for not only our sins but the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2). So Hebrews 10:10 is talking about the redemptive work of Christ God provided for the entire world. For He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29). But not everyone is saved. People have to receive Christ's gift and then be responsible with that gift. For Hebrews 10 also says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I promise I wouldn't be trying to offend you, but something tells me you would be very offended by my responses to your argument here.


And here.


And here.


And here in spades.


And here.


My reply to this I would have to be so careful on as to hardly be even able to say it.


Jason, there is no point in my going on reading. Please reconsider what you are doing. We will give account unto God, and I don't want you being grieved for having taught falsehoods. Your position is such that no one can correct you. You would never receive it. In such a state, neither can the Lord.

I promise you I'm neither offended nor hoping to offend you. Only to warn you about what you are doing. You are gravely mishandling the word of Almighty God.

In love, and in sincere hope of your repentance unto an acknowledgment of the truth,
HiH

If you cannot talk to me plainly in English using God's Word, then I agree, there is no discussion to be had. I do not believe Christians should act like they know Greek, when they really do not know that language. I believe it is wrong. Speak to me plainly with God's Word. Give me the context in English or give me cross references in the English to prove your points that you are correct. If you cannot do so, I am going to assume you merely do not know how to do so.

Christians shouldn't read their Bible's in English if they are so caught up on the Greek.
It is basically saying that they do not trust no Bible in what it says in English.
Yet, they read the Bible in English, no?
It is a contradiction.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


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[Hidden In Him]

If you cannot talk to me plainly in English using God's Word, then I agree, there is no discussion to be had. I do not believe Christians should act like they know Greek, when they really do not know that language. I believe it is wrong. Speak to me plainly with God's Word. Give me the context in English or give me cross references in the English to prove your points that you are correct.

You despise the word of God in its original form because it threatens a pet doctrine you hold to. I could refute you on every point you are making, but it will be a waste of time. You despise the word of God in its most authoritative form, and cast it aside as of no value. Again, not offended, nor trying to offend, but do you know how stubborn and willfully, almost rebelliously dismissive your position is?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My wife's native tongue is Brazillian Portuguese. It would be silly for me to get a Brazillian Portuguese Bible out and to make an English speaking translation of the Bible on such a language using Google Translate. It would be silly of me to act like I know more than her in what the Bible says by pointing to the Brazillian Portuguese language. She would no doubt be correcting me many times. Words can have multiple meanings even in another language. Grammar structure is different in another language, as well. Yet, people are essentially doing the same thing here with the Greek. I would not be qualified to translate a Brazillian Portuguese Bible in what it says unless I was an expert in knowing how to speak and write Brazillian Portuguese.


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[Hidden In Him]

My wife speaks Brazillian Portuguese, it would be silly for me to get a Brazillian Portuguese Bible out and to make an English speaking translation of the Bible on such a language using Google Translate.

Well of course. The product would be gibberish.

It would be silly of me to act like I know more than her in what the Bible says by pointing to the Brazillian Portuguese language. She would no doubt be correct me many times. Words can have multiple meanings even in another language. Grammar structure is different in another language, as well. Yet, people are essentially doing the same thing here with the Greek. I would not be qualified to translate a Brazillian Portuguese Bible in what it says unless I was an expert in knowing how to speak and write Brazillian Portuguese.

Yes. And yet while you would allow that your wife "would no doubt correct [you] many times," why is it that you would not allow the possibility of someone else correcting you on the oracles of the True and Living God whom you hold dear?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You despise the word of God in its original form because it threatens a pet doctrine you hold to. I could refute you on every point you are making, but it will be a waste of time. You despise the word of God in its most authoritative form, and cast it aside as of no value. Again, not offended, nor trying to offend, but do you know how stubborn and willfully, almost rebelliously dismissive your position is?

I do not have a problem with the Bible existing in the language of Biblical Greek at all. However, the only way I could be qualified to offer anyone a Greek translation of the Bible in any way is if I knew how to speak at least Modern Greek. Before I used to offer Greek translations of words out of ignorance. But now I know better. It is wrong for me to act like an expert in Greek when I am not an expert in Greek. In Acts chapter 2, God was more than capable of translating everyone's language so that they could understand each other. The world language today is English (Just as Greek was once the world language). God says in His Word that He will preserve His Word for all generations. I believe that. I do not need a Greek interlinear to figure that out.



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[Bible Highlighter]

Well of course. The product would be gibberish.

Yes, my point exactly. Folks are doing the same here with the Greek.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said beware of the scribes. This would be those who "trans-scribed" the law or the Holy Scriptures (Meaning, beware of the scholars). Why? Because some of them say things like, "Oh, hey look Jimmy. The Bible doesn't really say that. That's English. See in the Greek it really says this." And so poor Jimmy goes away believing them (with their tails tucked between their legs) and without being a good Berean and seeking the Scriptures to see whether those things were so or not (Acts 17:11). James 2:5 talks about how God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. Poor people do not alway have easy access to tools and resources that wealthy Bible scholars do. Yet, many would have me believe it is those believers who are more "well off" than the poor man who has a better understanding of God's Word beause they have the access to Greek Interlinears, etc.


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[Hidden In Him]

Jesus said beware of the scribes. This would be those who "trans-scribed" the law or the Holy Scriptures (Meaning, beware of the scholars). Why? Because some of them say things like, "Oh, hey look Jimmy. The Bible doesn't really say that. That's English. See in the Greek it really says this." And so poor Jimmy goes away believing them (with their tails tucked between their legs) and without being a good Berean and seeking the Scriptures to see whether those things were so or not (Acts 17:11)

I would be encouraging you and helping you as much as possible to study the Greek for yourself like a Berean, not just tell you what to believe.

James 2:5 talks about how God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. Poor people do not alway have easy access to tools and resources that wealthy Bible scholars do.

Jason, just because God was choosing the poor to become rich in faith, that didn't mean He wanted them to remain in ignorance. That's too far a jump. Almost nobody had personal copies of the Torah, or the epistles or gospels for that matter. But if any poor brothers had earnestness to seek the scriptures for themselves, they most certainly would have been invited to the study of God's word with even the most respected elders in the churches, and very much encouraged to do so.