Entertainment vs worship

[OzSpen]

Talitha,

Hmmm, do you mean inasmuch as we would not put a song in our repertoire that we considered bad theology? Hmmm, I think most people would consider it bad theology to worship the cross itself, but many churches sing Old Rugged Cross, which in my view is at least tantamount to idolatry. There are many songs like that which people sing without thinking deeply enough about theology, songs that are labeled "hymns" and songs that are labeled "praise and worship songs". Like it or not, the songs in most churches today are chosen on the basis of nostalgia (Old Rugged Cross) or emotional response (choose a Hillsong at random (sorry, I admit I have an attitude about Hillsongs)).

These are the words of "The Old Rugged Cross":

The Old Rugged Cross

Text: George Bennard, 1873-1958
Music: George Bennard, 1873-1958
Tune: ---, Meter: Irr. with Refrain 1. On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross, the emblem of suffering and shame; and I love that old cross where the dearest and best for a world of lost sinners was slain. Refrain: So I'll cherish the old rugged cross, till my trophies at last I lay down; I will cling to the old rugged cross, and exchange it some day for a crown. 2. O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world, has a wondrous attraction for me; for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above to bear it to dark Calvary. (Refrain) 3. In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine, a wondrous beauty I see, for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died, to pardon and sanctify me. (Refrain) 4. To that old rugged cross I will ever be true, its shame and reproach gladly bear; then he'll call me some day to my home far away, where his glory forever I'll share.

Line 2 tells us exactly what it is pointing to, "the emblem of suffering and shame".

So, what place does the 'cross' have in your theology? The 'old rugged cross' points to that atonement, justification and propitiation for me. That hymn is a symbol of what the cross represents. I do not worship a cross hanging around my neck or on a church altar, but the cross is a reminder of my Saviour's death, burial and resurrection and what that means for salvation.

Symbols are permitted in poems, hymns, spiritual songs, but the symbols only represent, they are not the actual event.

In Christ, Oz

 

[wintermile]

When an individual considers being baptised in His name, the individual grafts unto Jesus in His death, burial and resurrection. On a simple level, I offer this discussion concerning my acknowledgment of His salvation and how faith is expressed through worship.

The hymn, The Old Rugged Cross, directs my attention to many aspects of His hallowed presence. As a believer who is conditioned by online ministries, I observe the same intentions in most witnessing believers; I gain momentum in my own salvation-seeking due to their examples of His eight graces. I observe the following scripture in their attitudes and statements. Galations 6:14 But God forbide that I boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. This scripture is key to my self-conditioning. In relation to the hymn, The Old Rugged Cross, I worship Him by singing this song in the company of other sincere believers. My personal take is this, boasting in revelance to Galations 6:14 is His Glory. There is not boasting in His kingdom, only His glory.

Now for the life-change; to faithfully put this scripture to use in my spiritual attitude, I can slow my expressive nature to interject first His work-His glory and then, of course, be completely satisified.

 

[wintermile]

Entertainment v worship was expouned upon in the late, beloved Pastor David Wilkerson's sermon A Call To Anguish. All of the current generations, sensibly, respond to this call of action in what current form?

 

[mysterE]

Some worship music is played on the radio and can become entertainment music.

100% agreement with show off musician statement

I believe that worship team musicians are aware of the show off tendancies. I know I am because that is where I converted from. The difference between secular entertainment and worship is mostly about crowd focus.

If a musician starts showing off in church the church stops singing and puts their focus on that musician or singer, and worship becomes entertainment.

My team is more conserned with participation than recognition. My church knows that the musicians are capible. There is no desire to show off.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe that worship team musicians are aware of the show off tendancies. I know I am because that is where I converted from. The difference between secular entertainment and worship is mostly about crowd focus.

If a musician starts showing off in church the church stops singing and puts their focus on that musician or singer, and worship becomes entertainment.

My team is more conserned with participation than recognition. My church knows that the musicians are capible. There is no desire to show off.

The difference between secular entertainment and worship should NOT BE about crowd focus. It should be about God-focus.

I find much of the current entertainment, contemporary Christian music to be trite in the lyrics. Take this as an example:

[FONT=&quot]Heart Of Worship[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
when the music fades
all is stripped away
and i simply come
longing just to bring
something that's of worth
that will bless your heart

i'll bring you more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what you have required
you search much deeper within
through the way things appear
you're looking into my heart

chorus

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
and it's all about you
It's all about you, Jesus
I'm sorry Lord for the things i've made it
when it's all about you
it's all about you, Jesus

King of endless worth
no one could express
how much you deserve
though i'm weak and poor
all i have is yours
every single breath

chorus

Where do we find the glories of the Christ focus of hymns like this:

Crown Him with many crowns

Crown Him with many crowns, the Lamb upon His throne.
Hark! How the heavenly anthem drowns all music but its own.
Awake, my soul, and sing of Him who died for thee,
And hail Him as thy matchless King through all eternity.

Crown Him the virgin’s Son, the God incarnate born,
Whose arm those crimson trophies won which now His brow adorn;
Fruit of the mystic rose, as of that rose the stem;
The root whence mercy ever flows, the Babe of Bethlehem.

Crown Him the Son of God, before the worlds began,
And ye who tread where He hath trod, crown Him the Son of Man;
Who every grief hath known that wrings the human breast,
And takes and bears them for His own, that all in Him may rest.

Crown Him the Lord of life, who triumphed over the grave,
And rose victorious in the strife for those He came to save.
His glories now we sing, who died, and rose on high,
Who died eternal life to bring, and lives that death may die.

Crown Him the Lord of peace, whose power a scepter sways
From pole to pole, that wars may cease, and all be prayer and praise.
His reign shall know no end, and round His piercèd feet
Fair flowers of paradise extend their fragrance ever sweet.

Crown Him the Lord of love, behold His hands and side,
Those wounds, yet visible above, in beauty glorified.
No angel in the sky can fully bear that sight,
But downward bends his burning eye at mysteries so bright.

Crown Him the Lord of Heaven, enthroned in worlds above,
Crown Him the King to Whom is given the wondrous name of Love.
Crown Him with many crowns, as thrones before Him fall;
Crown Him, ye kings, with many crowns, for He is King of all.

Crown Him the Lord of lords, who over all doth reign,
Who once on earth, the incarnate Word, for ransomed sinners slain,
Now lives in realms of light, where saints with angels sing
Their songs before Him day and night, their God, Redeemer, King.

Crown Him the Lord of years, the Potentate of time,
Creator of the rolling spheres, ineffably sublime.
All hail, Redeemer, hail! For Thou has died for me;
Thy praise and glory shall not fail throughout eternity.

In Christ, Oz

 

[Incariol]

The difference between secular entertainment and worship should NOT BE about crowd focus. It should be about God-focus.

I find much of the current entertainment, contemporary Christian music to be trite in the lyrics. Take this as an example:

*shudders*

That song is horrendous. If anyone hasn't heard it actually done, take it from me, it is excruciating.

 

[OzSpen]

*shudders*

That song is horrendous. If anyone hasn't heard it actually done, take it from me, it is excruciating.

Why don't you explain for me a little more of what "horrendous" and "excruciating" mean when this type of song, "Heart of worship", is performed in alleged worship?

What do you think that these kinds of lyrics are doing to evangelical Christianity?

Sincerely, Oz

 

[Incariol]

Why don't you explain for me a little more of what "horrendous" and "excruciating" mean when this type of song, "Heart of worship", is performed in alleged worship?

What do you think that these kinds of lyrics are doing to evangelical Christianity?

Sincerely, Oz

Well, asides from it being rather self-focused, it is just an awful composition.

You can hear it.

YouTube - ‪Heart of Worship‬‏

I mean, what can I say? I simply think it is bad music.

As opposed to,

YouTube - ‪Lux Aeterna part 1, Morten Lauridsen‬‏

 

[OzSpen]

Incariol,

You say that it is "bad music". I'm thinking of bad/existential theology and what it is teaching those who sing it. No wonder the church in some areas is struggling with orthodox theology when this kind of lyric is being perpetrated.

The Berean Call provides this observation by Gary Gilley,

"It would appear, when it comes to entertainment, Christianity has caught up with the culture at large. One social observer, Neal Gabler, who has no ax to grind in this regard, making no pretense to be a Christian, has noticed, “Evangelical Protestantism, which had begun as a kind of spiritual entertainment in the nineteenth century, only refined its techniques in the twentieth, especially after the advent of television. Televangelists like Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggart recast the old revival meeting as a television variety show, and Pat Robertson’s 700 Club was modeled after The Tonight Show, only the guests on this talk show weren’t pitching a new movie or album; they were pitching salvation.” Christianity on television, by necessity, has always been presented in the form of entertainment. Theology, rituals, sacred worship, prayer, and most other true components of the Christian faith, simply do not “play” well on television" [Gary Gilley, This Little Church Went to Market, Xulon Publishers, 2002 pp. 35-36].

This website provides what it considers are ….

Basics of Entertainment Christianity:
​

The entertainment church is stunting the growth of millions.

There is a growing trend to substitute entertainment for ministry and emotion for the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is powerful. Let Him rule and reign in the service. Entertainment can never satisfy the desire that you have to be fulfilled in Jesus. There is no exciting speaker or singer who can satisfy that need and longing. The enemy of your soul would love to deceive you into seeking after entertainment rather than seeking after Jesus.

Jesus moves in simple ways. His orders are clear in His Word. 1 Corinthians 14 is the description of a Scriptural church service, but it isn't compatible with the modern entertainment church. It's pretty risky to let the Holy Ghost plan and execute the service without any professional entertainers, if you want to build a big, popular church organization.

The reality is that God doesn't care a thing about building any big organization of any kind. He works through a remnant who will be obedient to His voice. He seeks those who desire Him. He doesn't need too many of those to usher in the Kingdom age.
​

Nancy Pearcey has exposed some of the pitfalls of entertainment Christianity in, "When churches try to be cool".

Sincerely, Oz

 

[Incariol]

Incariol,

You say that it is "bad music". I'm thinking of bad/existential theology and what it is teaching those who sing it. No wonder the church in some areas is struggling with orthodox theology when this kind of lyric is being perpetrated.

The Berean Call provides this observation by Gary Gilley,

This website provides what it considers are ….
Nancy Pearcey has exposed some of the pitfalls of entertainment Christianity in, "When churches try to be cool".

Sincerely, Oz

Oh, well, contemporary Christian music has never struck me as particularly deep theologically.

 

[talitha]

Apples and oranges, Incariol. And what you posted as far as I am concerned rather epitomizes "performance" (in which the congregation becomes a passive audience) rather than worship.

 

[Incariol]

Apples and oranges, Incariol. And what you posted as far as I am concerned rather epitomizes "performance" (in which the congregation becomes a passive audience) rather than worship.

Both videos I posted do that, since both of them are artistic recordings and not worship services. What of it?

 

[talitha]

What of it? That is the topic of our discussion here - entertainment (performance) versus worship. Just bringin' it home..

 

[Incariol]

What of it? That is the topic of our discussion here - entertainment (performance) versus worship. Just bringin' it home..

Oh, yeah, I suppose the thread was getting off track.

 

[mysterE]

The difference between secular entertainment and worship should NOT BE about crowd focus. It should be about God-focus.

In Christ, Oz

That is the idea. Leading worship means just that and who said the focus was not on God. It is not my aim to show the how to focus on themselves or the worship team. What would be your alternate solution?

 

[Divinah]

I agree it's happening more and more...the entertainment value of music in church is taking presedence over LEADING THE PEOPLE IN WORSHIP. It IS evident in the music. Some of the heartfelt music simply doesn't GLORIFY GOD in the full manner that it should. I find this to be of great significance. It's the difference between a performance and LEADING WORSHIP...when doing so you must lead the people to Glorify the Lord and that distinction must be acknowldedged for our offering to remain pure before our Lord. Amen.

 

[SongOfSelah]

Oz,
You have a valid point; lots of Hillsong's music is theologically weak (at best), and I believe that is largely because of the commercialization of their worship music. They are so focused on putting out albums they will publish even the vaguest expressions of worship.
However, IMHO, it is unfair to discredit any worship music written in the past ten to twenty years. There are a fair number of modern worship songwriters who show both musical excellence and biblically rooted theology. Chris Tomlin and Stuart Townend (check out his modern hymns "In Christ Alone" and "How Deep The Father's Love For Us") are both faithful to the scriptures.
I also want to share the lyrics to "Revelation Song" by Jennie Lee Riddle. The chorus is straight out of Revelation 4.

"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
Holy, Holy, is He
Sing a new song to him who sits on
Heaven's mercy seat

Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come
With all creation I sing
Praise to the King of Kings
You are my everything
And I will adore You

Clothed in rainbows of living color
Flashes of lightning rolls of thunder
Blessing and honor strength and glory and power be
to You the only wise King

Filled with wonder, awestruck wonder
At the mention of your name
Jesus your name is power
Breath, and living water
Such a marvelous mystery"

 

[LeadWorship]

God, like in many other areas, doesn't give us a "formula" for worship song composition. The word itself means service (i.e. Rom 12:1). What gets me is that most people who criticize what's called "worship music" do so from their own vantage point. As a Music Minister/Lead Worshipper/Worship Pastor - whatever you choose to call me - it's the annointing placed upon me that when I worship, others worship with me. However isn't it simply reduced down to prayer set to music? When you Pray, do you only pray scripture? Or do you interject your own heart and words and phrases into your prayer?

These songs should be directional, in my opinion, and that direction should be upwards. When people see me, I want them to wonder "What's he looking at" not "wow he looks good". I want them to desire to see the object of my affection, and in my busy life sometimes it might get to be about the songs, and in prayer, worship, or supplication I must remind myself and express the desire to God that, "I'll bring You more than a song."

Stop over-analyzing the lyrics, weed out the songs with poor theology, and keep it about God... the Father, Son, and the Spirit. His adoration, glory, grace, mercy, love, etc. etc.

In Him,
LW

 

[Incariol]

Not to mention that a lot of new Contemporary Christian Music is just awful from a musical standpoint anyways.

 

[LeadWorship]

I'm sure God doesn't consider the music awful, but rather songs lifted up by His children. My kids may not sing their made-up songs on key and in pitch, but they are beautiful to me. Don't let yourself judge too harshly the offering of other people. They aren't offering them to you, but to their God (at least I hope so anyway! )