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But to be "in him" requires faith.
It is because they got stunted in their growth for some reason.
MOST of the NT is not about how to get saved/enter the New Covenant; rather it is about how to live AFTER salvation.
I don't disagree with this at all. What's your problem with the way that Westminster puts it?
V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:[9] under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;[10] which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,[11] by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.[12]
VI. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance,[13] was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:[14] which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,[15] to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;[16] and is called the New Testament.[17] There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.[18]
I believe he is speaking of those who may have believed but for some reason did not continue in Christ and fell away. He is not speaking of unbelievers.Why does Jesus say that there are those "in him" who will not bear fruit? (John 15)
That the Covenant of Grace could have been administered differently. The gospel is what saves, the same covenant, same administration. The only difference is that they received it in promise form, which was still progressively being revealed, and we receive it at its full revelation.
The Old Covenant is an entirely different covenant than the New Covenant. Just because it pointed to Christ, doesn't mean it was a covenant of grace. The New Covenant actually administers total redemption, being a member of the Old Covenant did not do this at all. All members under the New Covenant are saved, no exception according to Jeremiah 31:31-34 and so on. The Old Covenant members only enjoyed temporal salvation from their enemies and the enjoyment of the land. Jews who heard or saw Christ presented in the types and shadows were retroactively saved by the Covenant to come, not by the things they saw by itself.
I believe he is speaking of those who may have believed but for some reason did not continue in Christ and fell away. He is not speaking of unbelievers.
because there is no such thing as becoming a part of him in a formal, external sense only....Why couldn't he be speaking of those who became part of him in a formal, external sense only? Like branches glued onto a vine but not enjoying its nourishing, life giving sap.
because there is no such thing as becoming a part of him in a formal, external sense only....
The only way to become a part of the BRANCH is to be filled with his Spirit. Christ in you the hope of glory. There is a such thing as falling away from grace, but one cannot fall away if they were never a partaker of the covenant.
Romans 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV)The Bible describes our relationship with God as a covenant relationship. The best modern day example we have of a covenant relationship is marriage. Is it possible to enter into covenant relationship with God as an unbeliever? Are there unbelievers in the covenant? Or are there only ever believers in the covenant?
Again there is no such thing. There is only one way to be "attached" to Jesus and that is through the new covenant and no one enters the new covenant without truly having faith. Belief is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you dont understand what the new covenant is. It is impossible to be attached to Christ without actual faith. Yet people who had real faith can lose faith and fall from grace.I don't see why I should accept this. How about this one:
There is such a thing as being attached to Jesus in an external sense only. Those who fall away never truly had faith which is why they ultimately fell away.
Tree of life,
I don't see where I contradicted. OT saints receive Christ by promise, NT receive Christ by promise. It is just that one party saw degrees of the promise, and the other sees the fullness of it. Abraham saw more of the promise than Noah, Moses saw more of the promise than Abraham, and so on until Christ came. The Covenant of Grace was never formally established at all, it was only progressively revealed until it occurred. This means that there was no Covenant of Grace in the OT, only promises.
Westminster says that the Old Covenant and New Covenant had an external and internal community, with promises set before the members, with the potential to have non-saved and saved members together. This is how Westminster can see it as one covenant. In the Old Covenant, it was just types and shadows and promises. In the New Covenant, it is the whole gospel preaching. But the members have the choice to receive those benefits.
This is too strange. I agree that the Old Covenant had believers with promises set forth, but it had to do with an entirely separate covenant with an entirely separate substance. It is possible for the Old Covenant is have had unbelievers, but it is not possible the New Covenant to have unbelievers. There was no Covenant of Grace in existence in the OT, just promises progressively being revealed.
Again there is no such thing. There is only one way to be "attached" to Jesus and that is through the new covenant and no one enters the new covenant without truly having faith. Belief is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you dont understand what the new covenant is. It is impossible to be attached to Christ without actual faith. Yet people who had real faith can lose faith and fall from grace.
The scriptures teach that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17London baptist confession says there was a COG in the OT:
3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency. ( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )
Amen!The scriptures teach that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17
London baptist confession says there was a COG in the OT:
3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency. ( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )
Membership in the Old Covenant was by ethnicity and circumcision.
Membership in the New Covenant is regeneration and faith.
Promises were different in each covenant. One dealt with temporal things, the other dealt with eternal things.
to the first question the answer is NOIt is also possible that you don't understand what the New Covenant is.
And it is equally possible that there is "such a thing".
Ponder that!
to the first question the answer is NO
to the second answer the answer is NOT AS I UNDERSTAND THE NEW COVENANT.
Try to support your claim with scripture and I will definitely Ponder the scripture.
Correct me if Im wrong but it seem you are stating that a person can be in covenant with God and not be a believer, is that correct. Or a person can be "attached" to Jesus and not be a believer.
Unless membership in both administrations of the covenant has an external and internal dimension. One became a member of the covenant externally in the OT via circumcision. But they were also called to circumcise their hearts (regeneration) (Deuteronomy 10:12-17).
One becomes a member of the New Covenant in an external sense via baptism, but only truly in an internal sense through this same heart circumcision that we call regeneration.
Paul says that God promised to give Abraham the world (Romans 4:13). Jesus says that the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5). Are there different things in view here, or the same thing?
one is not a "member" of the Church until they are born again of water and the Spirit. A person is not connected to Christ through a covenant without being born again. Just because someone goes to a Church building and sits or even signs a membership card does not make the attached to Jesus. Maybe you should define "external sense".Yes on both accounts. All people are in the broken covenant that God made with Adam. Unbelievers will be condemned on the basis of that covenant. One can be attached to Christ in a merely external sense by being a member of the church but not a true believer.
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