Enoch and Elijah

[FaithT]

I need an LCMS Teaching on this. Where are Enoch and Elijah? Floating around in space? And how could a man made object like the chariot still be up there somewhere? Where is it?
@Daniel9v9

 

[FaithT]

My pastor said that Enoch and Elijah are where everybody else who’s died are….so is heaven in another dimension?
As far as the chariot, he said that it’s supernatural. But isn’t that a little fantastical?

 

[Daniel9v9]

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven. God took them into heaven before they died.

Heaven is not in space, so they’re not floating around in space. I’m not sure about the language of a different dimension either, but heaven is a place where Christians who die go to be with God and be in peace, awaiting the Last Day.

The chariot and horses were not ordinary, but “chariots of fire and horses of fire” and a “whirlwind”, which indicates something divine and supernatural. And it’s not random or fantastical. The reason God made this extraordinary sign was to grant Elisha’s request for a spiritual inheritance.

God is almighty, so He has the power to do anything. So when asking “How can God do this?” — the answer will always be the same: It’s possible because God is almighty. It’s much more profitable to ask “Why did God do this?” Then we can learn of God’s great love, mercy, and grace.

In the case of Enoch and Elijah, we can see God’s grace in redeeming them and the promise of life in Him; a new life without sin, death, pain, devil, and hell. As our Lord told the thief on the cross: “Today you will be with Me in paradise”. This is a promise to all of us who die believe in Jesus.

 

[FaithT]

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven. God took them into heaven before they died.

Heaven is not in space, so they’re not floating around in space. I’m not sure about the language of a different dimension either, but heaven is a place where Christians who die go to be with God and be in peace, awaiting the Last Day.

The chariot and horses were not ordinary, but “chariots of fire and horses of fire” and a “whirlwind”, which indicates something divine and supernatural. And it’s not random or fantastical. The reason God made this extraordinary sign was to grant Elisha’s request for a spiritual inheritance.

God is almighty, so He has the power to do anything. So when asking “How can God do this?” — the answer will always be the same: It’s possible because God is almighty. It’s much more profitable to ask “Why did God do this?” Then we can learn of God’s great love, mercy, and grace.

In the case of Enoch and Elijah, we can see God’s grace in redeeming them and the promise of life in Him; a new life without sin, death, pain, devil, and hell. As our Lord told the thief on the cross: “Today you will be with Me in paradise”. This is a promise to all of us who die believe in Jesus.

Can you describe where heaven might be, if not in space or another dimension?
I’ve never found an answer to that question so another dimension or realm makes most sense to me.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Can you describe where heaven might be, if not in space or another dimension?
I’ve never found an answer to that question so another dimension or realm makes most sense to me.

Oh, there’s no wonder you’ve never found the answer to this, for the Bible doesn’t reveal to us where heaven is. I guess a different dimension or realm is an OK understanding, but I think it can perhaps have unhelpful connotations.

Here’s a useful summary of what the Bible says about heaven:
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia

 

[Tigger45]

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[FaithT]

Oh, there’s no wonder you’ve never found the answer to this, for the Bible doesn’t reveal to us where heaven is. I guess a different dimension or realm is an OK understanding, but I think it can perhaps have unhelpful connotations.

Here’s a useful summary of what the Bible says about heaven:
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia

What kind of unhelpful connotations?

 

[FaithT]

Is the Present Heaven Part of Our Universe? - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

 

[Daniel9v9]

What kind of unhelpful connotations?

Well, for example, I don’t think what what is commonly portrayed in films or popular culture is sufficiently comparative to Biblical truth. So heaven is not some kind of alternative universe like in Marvel films. Heaven is a spiritual place, and it’s just a holy mystery to us, which is why when God talks about heaven, He uses simple expressions that we can understand. Like how in heaven there are many rooms prepared for us etc. But what we can know is that heaven is real and good.

 

[FaithT]

Well, for example, I don’t think what what is commonly portrayed in films or popular culture is sufficiently comparative to Biblical truth. So heaven is not some kind of alternative universe like in Marvel films. Heaven is a spiritual place, and it’s just a holy mystery to us, which is why when God talks about heaven, He uses simple expressions that we can understand. Like how in heaven there are many rooms prepared for us etc. But what we can know is that heaven is real and good.

Have you read my link in post #8? If so, what did you think?

 

[Daniel9v9]

Have you read my link in post #8? If so, what did you think?

Yes, he proposes a few different ideas, but it's getting into speculation. God's Word simply does not reveal to us the laws of nature in heaven and how it is connected to this universe. But it does speak of it as a firm reality, so we know it to be true and real.

If you see the link that I posted above, you can see a summary of everything the Bible does say about it. For example: "2. Scripture represents heaven as a place, a house with many mansions (Jn 14:2), everlasting habitations (Lk 16:9), a city (Heb 11:10), a new heaven and a new earth (2 Ptr 3:13; Rv 21:1). It makes no attempt to locate heaven. All human efforts to do so must fail."

 

[FaithT]

Yes, he proposes a few different ideas, but it's getting into speculation. God's Word simply does not reveal to us the laws of nature in heaven and how it is connected to this universe. But it does speak of it as a firm reality, so we know it to be true and real.

If you see the link that I posted above, you can see a summary of everything the Bible does say about it. For example: "2. Scripture represents heaven as a place, a house with many mansions (Jn 14:2), everlasting habitations (Lk 16:9), a city (Heb 11:10), a new heaven and a new earth (2 Ptr 3:13; Rv 21:1). It makes no attempt to locate heaven. All human efforts to do so must fail."

I’m ok with speculation; I’m just trying to find some possibilities.

 

[FaithT]

Anyone else care to chime in? Where are Enoch and Elijah besides the standard, generic answer “heaven”? What is heaven and where might it be?

 

[FaithT]

Anyone else care to chime in? Where are Enoch and Elijah besides the standard, generic answer “heaven”? What is heaven and where might it be?

Anyone?

 

[tampasteve]

Anyone else care to chime in? Where are Enoch and Elijah besides the standard, generic answer “heaven”? What is heaven and where might it be?

As is mentioned, the only possible answer is "Heaven", but how to explain where Heaven is, well....that is another matter. The best our limited minds and words can say is that it is a/the spiritual realm. The spiritual realm exists in tandem with us, we just usually don't have access to it while living this life. But we know bodies can be in that realm when God deems it so. Jesus, Enoch, Elijah, arguably Mary, these people were bodily assumed. Call it a shadow realm if you like, we know that the things seen here are a mere shadow or copy of the Heavenly realm.

The Temple service was spoken as such by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8, verse 5:
They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."

 

[FaithT]

As is mentioned, the only possible answer is "Heaven", but how to explain where Heaven is, well....that is another matter. The best our limited minds and words can say is that it is a/the spiritual realm. The spiritual realm exists in tandem with us, we just usually don't have access to it while living this life. But we know bodies can be in that realm when God deems it so. Jesus, Enoch, Elijah, arguably Mary, these people were bodily assumed. Call it a shadow realm if you like, we know that the things seen here are a mere shadow or copy of the Heavenly realm.

The Temple service was spoken as such by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8, verse 5:
They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."

Someone from another board said that heaven is “beyond outer space and outer space is not infinite” “and from all we know heaven is not infinite but it is a ‘another dimension’”
Do you agree or disagree with him?

 

[tampasteve]

Someone from another board said that heaven is “beyond outer space and outer space is not infinite” “and from all we know heaven is not infinite but it is a ‘another dimension’”
Do you agree or disagree with him?

What is space? It is not just the galaxies, stars, planets, etc. that we see - it is those as well as everything else. The black nothingness, the unreachable, the infinite beyond. Does it go on forever? I think it does, at least by our ability's to perceive it anyways. Does it have an end? I don't know, I do believe God has the ability to make something that is infinite, always expanding and growing. We know the galaxy is expanding, we believe the universe is as well. So, something that is always expanding and has always been expanding implies it will go on forever for as long as we can understand it.

I don't think that Heaven is at some eventual edge of the knowable area we call "space". I don't believe in those ridiculous "pictures" of Zion/Heaven/whatever approaching Earth from a far off place. You know the ones, they used to be on the cover of the World Weekly News and similar publications.

I think a parallel dimension is probably the easiest way to understand the idea, but I also think that saying that kind of has connotations that are not correct for the subject. But it is the easiest idea for modern people to perceive.

 

[FaithT]

What is space? It is not just the galaxies, stars, planets, etc. that we see - it is those as well as everything else. The black nothingness, the unreachable, the infinite beyond. Does it go on forever? I think it does, at least by our ability's to perceive it anyways. Does it have an end? I don't know, I do believe God has the ability to make something that is infinite, always expanding and growing. We know the galaxy is expanding, we believe the universe is as well. So, something that is always expanding and has always been expanding implies it will go on forever for as long as we can understand it.

I don't think that Heaven is at some eventual edge of the knowable area we call "space". I don't believe in those ridiculous "pictures" of Zion/Heaven/whatever approaching Earth from a far off place. You know the ones, they used to be on the cover of the World Weekly News and similar publications.

I think a parallel dimension is probably the easiest way to understand the idea, but I also think that saying that kind of has connotations that are not correct for the subject. But it is the easiest idea for modern people to perceive.

What is space? It is not just the galaxies, stars, planets, etc. that we see - it is those as well as everything else. The black nothingness, the unreachable, the infinite beyond. Does it go on forever? I think it does, at least by our ability's to perceive it anyways. Does it have an end? I don't know, I do believe God has the ability to make something that is infinite, always expanding and growing. We know the galaxy is expanding, we believe the universe is as well. So, something that is always expanding and has always been expanding implies it will go on forever for as long as we can understand it.

I don't think that Heaven is at some eventual edge of the knowable area we call "space". I don't believe in those ridiculous "pictures" of Zion/Heaven/whatever approaching Earth from a far off place. You know the ones, they used to be on the cover of the World Weekly News and similar publications.

I think a parallel dimension is probably the easiest way to understand the idea, but I also think that saying that kind of has connotations that are not correct for the subject. But it is the easiest idea for modern people to perceive.

Do you mean a like a parallel universe….a multi universe?

 

[tampasteve]

Do you mean a like a parallel universe….a multi universe?

Not exactly. I believe that it is existent in our universe at the same time, just hidden from us. Everything we see is a copy, the shadow of the real. This is the universe that is only real so long as God permits it, the shadow or copy of Heaven; a fallen world that is a farce of the real. Heaven, the original, that is the genuinely real place. The Temple was a real portal and connection to that place, but it was destroyed. Now Jesus is our connection to that place.

 

[FaithT]

Not exactly. I believe that it is existent in our universe at the same time, just hidden from us. Everything we see is a copy, the shadow of the real. This is the universe that is only real so long as God permits it, the shadow or copy of Heaven; a fallen world that is a farce of the real. Heaven, the original, that is the genuinely real place. The Temple was a real portal and connection to that place, but it was destroyed. Now Jesus is our connection to that place.

Ok….to be honest, I don’t get it.