• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christianity Board, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Endogenous retroviruses confirm common descent

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by BarryDesborough, May 27, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. biggles53

    biggles53 Junior Member

    +37
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    AU-Greens
    Hmmmmm........so, whether or not those transfers occurred in the 'past' or the 'present', WHY ARE THEY FOUND IN THE EXACT SAME LOCATIONS ACROSS SEVERAL SPECIES AND IN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CASES...!!?

    You see, your nonsense about 'past states' makes no difference to the question.....whether you consider that it happened in an era when 'time was faster' (or slower), when change occurred at a different rate, the fact remains that these viral remnants are found IN THE SAME PLACES ACROSS SPECIES.

    And you can't explain that can you....??
     
  2. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

    +123
    Agnostic
    Married
    US-Others
    You have too much patience, he neither knows nor desires to understand what an ERV is. His answer to everything is "the past was different, prove me wrong", which is as effective as this: "Zeus is the father of gods and men and rules mount Olympus, now prove me wrong".
     
  3. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    They were not transferred IN this state that you know. That does er.
     
  4. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    How would they not end up in the same locations? If Noah sneezed out a virus, and a monkey got it, why would it not end in in a loci that is where those viri would end up regardless of how they were transferred?


    No no no. It was not time on earth that was the issue. It was the forces and laws in place that control the atoms and cells and life processes.
     
  5. BarryDesborough

    BarryDesborough Well-Known Member

    +17
    Agnostic
    Married
    If the viruses were capable of infecting both species, (some are - not all) the DNA integrations would not be in the same locations. That is not what happens.

    What were they? How and why did they form orthologous ERVs? What is your evidence for this?
     
  6. biggles53

    biggles53 Junior Member

    +37
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    AU-Greens
    Because those viruses inserted themselves RANDOMLY. Of the millions of locations that they could have inserted into in each species, we find that they inserted into the SAME PLACES. The chances of this happening just several times are enormous, but it happened HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES...!! The probability of that happening randomly is vanishingly small. The ONLY rational explanation is that those species which share those hundreds of thousands of common locations, must have had a common ancestor which passed the original pattern of insertions to its decendants...


    And, regardless of what those 'forces and laws' were at that time, you still have to explain why they resulted in the insertions being IN THE SAME PLACES....!
     
  7. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    Science doesn't know now does it!!? That is all one needs to know to evaluate the worth of science!


    Looking at this site we see this

    "

    • Two genes are to be orthologous if they diverged after a speciation event,"

    http://www.icp.ucl.ac.be/~opperd/private/orthol.html


    If this is what you think (?) then you need to look at when the evolving and speciation happened! To do that we must go to the former state times when most of it occurred!
     
  8. BarryDesborough

    BarryDesborough Well-Known Member

    +17
    Agnostic
    Married
    What state and mechanisms do you propose for producing this evidence of orthology? What is your evidence for them?
     
  9. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    I thought you just tried to tell us it was random!? Make up your mind what you are claiming! The "same places"?? Would not those places BE the places where the viri would end up?? Where did you think they would end up?


    Absurd! That is fuzzy thinking.

    [​IMG]
    How do you think an erv GETS to where it does in DNA? Laws and forces are involved.
     
  10. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    How would the present state be required to get ERVs where they are? Evidence? We already saw that science doesn't know what state was in existence.
     
  11. Cheeky Monkey

    Cheeky Monkey Newbie

    +13
    Atheist
    Married
    Hey dad, in the past state were offspring related to their parents?
     
  12. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    Why? That would not mean that only by that method things could have been passed around!
     
  13. BarryDesborough

    BarryDesborough Well-Known Member

    +17
    Agnostic
    Married
    Imagine two packs of cards, plus say, ten pairs of numbered jokers. The two packs are ordered in the same way. Now imagine two people. One cuts each pack at random. The second person inserts an identically numbered joker at the cut points and re-assembles the packs. This is repeated until all the numbered jokers are used up.

    What are the chances of all the numbered jokers ending up in the same locations in both packs?
     
  14. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    Remember that the deck was not cut randomly.

    If man gets a cold, they often get a runny nose. The location of the runniness is not really random.
     
  15. biggles53

    biggles53 Junior Member

    +37
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    AU-Greens
    Oh, you want to play dumb..? Fine...let's take baby steps.

    Viruses insert themselves randomly into the genomes of their hosts - there are millions of locations within the genome that they could insert.

    Given this, it would be very unlikely for the same virus to insert itself into 2 different species in the same location in each species' genome.

    And yet, not only do we find that happening in more than 2 species, we also find it happening in many, many insertions - hundreds of thousands of them - the chance of so many inserting themselves into the SAME location in each species' genome is astronomically large; virtually impossible -UNLESS, those species INHERITED that insertion pattern from a common ancestor.

    Which they did.....

    You know what is really pathetic...? I think you understand all this perfectly; I think you know that this is all probably true. I think you maintain this ridiculous, desperate charade out of the fear that your imagined beliefs might tumble....
     
  16. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    Correction. As far as science knows, it appears random in this state!

    All that says is that inheritance is NOW the present state method of transfer in an un random way, no? That would not be saying much!

    We shall see who will awaken to what and what belief will crumble! En guarde!

    [​IMG]
     
  17. BarryDesborough

    BarryDesborough Well-Known Member

    +17
    Agnostic
    Married
    No, the "deck" is cut randomly. We know this from surveying integration loci. Go to the link in the OP already.

    Your comments about runny noses are just silly.
     
  18. BarryDesborough

    BarryDesborough Well-Known Member

    +17
    Agnostic
    Married
    What are your reasons for supposing a past state with non-random integrations?
     
  19. dad

    dad Undefeated

    +451
    Christian
    Private
    No, nature works in a certain way. Things tend to end up certain places. Have a big meal, and you better hope a washroom is nearby.


    Now, in your OP we see it start with this

    "Retroviruses such as HIV get replicated by invading the cells of host organisms and hijacking their replication chemistry. They attach to host cells by means of a surface protein, called the envelope or env protein..."


    This is all present state and how things NOW work! Who gives a hoot how they now "get replicated"?? You need to prove that they did when the important time was.
     
  20. BarryDesborough

    BarryDesborough Well-Known Member

    +17
    Agnostic
    Married
    Can I come with you to a casino to play roulette? Will you tell me what number the ball will land on each time, before it does, so I can place my bets and be sure to win?
    What are your reasons for supposing a past state with non-random integrations?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.