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End Times - Should We Worry?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by seebs, Jun 1, 2002.

  1. Next ten years.

  2. Next hundred years.

  3. Next thousand years.

  4. I have no idea.

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    I'm trying to tell you it has nothing to do with dead guys , it's about the jews refusal to accept jesus christ .
     
  2. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Brian,

    Here's a commentary I picked off the net by somebody called Guzik(?)He is someone obviously well known enough to warrant a spot on blueletterbible.com. I don't know anything about the guy, but I agree with him.

    The story of Lazarus and the rich man

    1. (19-21) Lazarus and the rich man on earth

    a. Significantly, Jesus does not present this story as a parable, and in no other parable does Jesus actually name an individual (as the poor man is named here). We have every reason to believe that Jesus is giving us an actual "case history," that He would know because He is the man from heaven
    b. The rich man's wealth is shown by his clothing (luxurious, expensive clothes), and by his excess with food (most people in that culture fared sumptuously only a few times a year)

    i. The rich man is unnamed, but is traditionally give the name Dives, which is simply Latin for "rich"

    c. The destitute poverty of Lazarus is shown by the fact that he must resort to begging with the dogs

    2. (22-26) Lazarus and the rich man in Hades

    a. Lazarus was so destitute that he did not even get a burial; but because of his devotion to God, he ends up with Abraham and all the righteous in the afterlife
    i. We must never think that Lazarus was saved by his poverty, any more than we would think that the rich man was damned by his wealth. Lazarus must have had a true relationship of faith with the true God

    ii. Lazarus doesn't seem to ask God, "why was it so unfair on earth?" Now he knows, now all questions are answered

    b. The rich man is also not far from Lazarus; yet he is a world apart. His place is a place of torment and pain; now, it is the rich man who is the beggar, begging Lazarus for a drop of water

    i. Again, the rich man was not in torment because he was rich. If it were so, then it would be a contradiction for Abraham to be shown as righteous, because he was far richer than "Dives" could ever have been

    ii. The only sin charged to the rich man was selfishness - all he lived for was himself. This was enough. He could say, "I never hurt anybody," but living purely for yourself is enough
    to condemn you

    iii. Also, this story is the contrast to the parable of the unjust steward; the rich man was one who didn't use any of his resources to prepare for the world to come

    c. Jesus is describing Hades (called Sheol in the Old Testament), which was the common abode of the dead

    i. Some who are in Hades rest in comfort (the bosom of Abraham), but others are in fires of torment

    ii. Hades is not the Lake of Fire (what we usually think of as Hell, referred to in Revelation 20:15, and called Gehenna in the Old Testament), but Hades is a "waiting place" until the day of final judgment (Revelation 20:11-13)

    iii. Jesus went to Hades, but did not stay there (Acts 2:24-27; 31); Jesus preached in Hades (1 Peter 3:18-19); Jesus set the captives in Hades free (Ephesians 4:8-9; Isaiah 61:1). Jesus' work and preaching offered salvation for those who in faith awaited it (Hebrews 11:39-40), and sealed the condemnation of the wicked and unbelieving

    iv. Since Jesus' work on the cross (the believer's day of judgment), there is no "waiting" for believers who die; they go directly to the presence of the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)
    *********************
    There is no mention of Israel there, nor do I see any when I read the story in the bible.
    Maybe you can shed some light on this for me.There are many posters on this forum and others who find a way to tie Israel in to every scripture in the book. Who or what are these people following and where can I link into any articles on same?
    Thanks Brian,

    Justme
     
  3. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

    40
    +0
    seeb,
    Hello. I am new heree and started reading in here, but there are so much to read I finally gave up and decided to add my 2 cents, for what that is worth. I hope that by not reading all posts that I don't repeat something that has already been posted.

    I definately believe that Jesus will return. I just don't know when. I guess I actually don't worry about it either. I life my life as I believe God would want and what ever happens outside my control happens. I know that no matter what happens I will meet my Lord, whether I have to die first or if I remain alive.

    Many do try to put a time on His return. In so doing many get descouraged when it don't happen at a time that has been set. We can only know that we are closer to the end than when we first believed.

    I do a lot of prophecy study, and this is why: According to the teachings in the Bible time travels in a straight line. Going from one distinct beginning to one distinct ending.

    God knew that the things that would befall us humans would be very perplexing, so to take the worry away He gave us prophecy. Thru these prophecy He lets us know(in odd ways)what our future will be, and how this future will affect our lives.

    In the book of Daniel are prophecies that take us right up to the time of the end(or end time). They have a starting point and an ending point. By studying these prophecies and seeing which ones have come to be we can pretty much fit the puzzle together and know(not guess) what our future has to offer.

    By studying the Prophecies I have come to the conclusion that our time is very close. Just how close very is, isn't clear. We have very little prophecy left that hasn't already happened. I do know that the true followers of Christ will face a persecution again. That can be seen in the events described in Rev. 13. We can see there will be economic sanctions imposed on those that don't worship the beast and his image. We also see that whne the sanctions don't work to coerce us into worshipping against our conscience then we will face death.

    We as Christians and followers of Christ are not promised to be wisked away when tribulation and persecution is upon us. We do know that no matter what we go through we will have Him with us. We won't have to face it alone.

    We were however told we wouldn't face God's wrath. The wrath that will be handed out prior to His return will be in the form of the 7 last plagues. We will still be here on earth at that time, but because of our love,faithfulness and loyalty to God will be protected from that hour, just like the jews during the time of Moses were protected from the plagues that fell on Egypt.

    What we have to remember is to find our strength in the Lord. When things are looking bad if we don't have that we are doomed. We will not make it and will fall easily to deception.

    Knowledge of the prophecies will also help us to avoid being deceived.

    To answer your question should we worry. No we that believe in, trust in and love the Lord have nothing to fear, even death will not cause us to be afraid.
     
  4. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

    40
    +0
    Brian45,

    In one of your posts, don't know which one there were so many, you mentioned the persecution the Christians faced under the Papal rule of 1260 years. You classed it as wrath. It wasn't wrath they faced, at least not from God. that was the great tribulation. Tribulation and wrath are not the same. The wrath of God won't happen till the end of the age. and that will only fall on those that have chosen to worship the beast and his image.

    Christians will face persecution and I believe that it won't be long in the waiting. There are events that are working up to it right now. .......We are not promised to be spared from persecution, only from His wrath.
     
  5. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

    40
    +0
    GraftMeIn,

    I liked your view in #55. Why? because prophecy is proved by historical records and facts. Future prophecies can be seen unfolding before our eyes, in the news, and world events, and in the conditions of our earth right now. I think that is what I like so well about prophecy, the fact it can be proved.
     
  6. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +151
    Christian
    Single
    I fully agree with you Rainbow , spot on .
     
  7. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +151
    Christian
    Single
    Hi justme . without knowing it you have agreed with me , one guy is spiritualy rich and the other is spiritualy poor . Read your own post again .
     
  8. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Brian,

    From your post:
    I'm trying to tell you it has nothing to do with dead guys ,
    *************
    Take my word for it, I KNOW I don't agree with you.

    Now you just want to say Lazurus is 'spiritually rich' before you said this:

    The rich man dressed in purple represents the jews and Lazarith the poor man represents the Gentiles .

    You will then understand Lazarith being in Abrahams bossom and the great divide or gulf or void that is between them . by
    .********************

    Then you said this:
    I'm trying to tell you it has nothing to do with dead guys........

    but the bible says this:

    The time came when the beggar DIED and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.
    The rich man also DIED and was buried.

    So do you understand why I do not buy your argument for one split second that this does not have anything to do with dead guys?

    Let's get to the meat of this. What do you have to have this story say to fit in with what you want to believe?

    Justme
     
  9. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +151
    Christian
    Single
    Hi justme  .  I'm going to stick with my original post above ,  it says what I think  .  the choice to believe it or not is up to you .

    I mentioned it as an alternative view point  to what is normaly fed to us by those who say they know .
     
  10. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Brian,

    There you go Brian, of course you should believe as you think. I, also will stay with what I see the bible saying, because I disagree and say that those 'feeding' you DON'T know.

    Thanks for talking,
    Justme
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    I believe the "spiritual body" of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:44) is that which is immortal flesh, like the resurrected body Jesus has (Luke 24:39). We are all now in "natural" (1 Corinthians 15:44) mortal bodies that descended by the natural process from Adam's flesh after it was made mortal. At the resurrection we will receive bodies like the glorious body Jesus now has (Philippians 3:21), not by a natural process but by the same Spirit that raised Jesus: "If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Romans 8:11).

    What would be the reason for the resurrection of our bodies if only spirit was good? Don’t we already have spirits? (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

    If Jesus‘ fleshly body was not raised, why is the tomb empty (John 20:1-9), and why does Jesus still have the wounds of the crucifixion? (Zechariah 13:6)

    "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27).

    "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

    Again, I believe Jesus' 2nd coming must be physical because Jesus must come back from heaven (Acts 3:20-21) just as physically as he left: "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye [the living] have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). He physically went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven. He will physically return from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives: "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4); "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?" (Zechariah 13:6)

    I believe Jesus' 2nd coming must be physical because it must be seen by every eye of every tribe and kindred on earth, causing them great grief (Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7).

    Note that in Luke 17:20-21, Jesus was replying to the Pharisees, who expected Christ to conquer the world physically at his 1st coming. He was trying to get them to realize that they had to be conquered on the inside first -- as he had told them previously: all they cared about was externals (Luke 11:39).

    Notice that right after Luke 17:20-21, Jesus goes on to explain to his disciples that he had to die first, but that after that he would be revealed to destroy all his enemies (Luke 17:22-30). This is confirmed in other passages, which also foretell the day when the kingdom would come with observation (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30).
     
  12. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Postrib,

    I don't know if I have quoted the NASB here before or not, but this is the translation that cleared this up for me.

    Acts 10 from NASB:

    40 "(57) God raised Him up on the third
    day and granted that He become VISIBLE,
    41 (58) not to all the people, but to
    (59) witnesses who were chosen
    beforehand by God, that is, to us (60)
    who ate and drank with Him after He
    arose from the dead.

    When I read the corresponding verses in the KJV or others I can see this meaning there.

    Then I can reconcile how no one says "there He is," with every eye will see Him. Then I can read the verses from Matthew 24 direct because it was a spiritual coming of the son of man which makes sense because it is really the 'coming' of the Kingdom of Heaven WHICH makes sense because after the cross, mankind can qualify to be accepted into that Kingdom of God. It makes sense because the general resurrection occurs with this coming of the son of man, which agrees with 1 Thess. 4:15, which agrees with John 5:25.

    It makes sense because all of the past tense words can be read as past tense and no excuses or rationalizations have to be made for those verses.

    Why did Jesus lead Thomas to believe He was flesh and bone? If the NASB is right, why did God chose to fool the masses? I haven't figured it out yet, nor have I figured out why Jesus didn't use the usual phrase which is flesh and blood, which of course, can not go into Heaven anyway.

    Further to this, I guess if we are going to believe the bible at all, we might as well believe Jesus can float on a cloud if He wants to. However, try as I might, I can not picture a cloud fluffy enough to take John Hagee for a ride.

    There was more in your post, but this is long and boring already.

    Take care,
    Justme
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    "Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly" (Acts 10:40). I don't see how this requires that Jesus' physical body wasn't raised, or how it answers my questions:

    What would be the reason for the resurrection of our bodies if only spirit was good? Don’t we already have spirits? (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

    If Jesus‘ fleshly body was not raised, why is the tomb empty (John 20:1-9), and why does Jesus still have the wounds of the crucifixion? (Zechariah 13:6)

    "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27).

    "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

    I don't understand your point here. How will "every eye" see Jesus in your view?

    When were these verses and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 fulfilled?

    Which verses with past tenses in the Greek are you referring to? 

    How has God fooled anyone?

    Paul says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50), but note that he goes on to say "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption," so that he must have been referring only to corruptible flesh, for Jesus was resurrected into incorruptible "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39); I believe Jesus said "bones" instead of the usual "blood" because incorruptible "flesh and bones" (without blood as we know it) can inherit the kingdom of God.

    Indeed, why couldn't he, if he could walk on water (Matthew 14:26) even before his resurrection?
     
  14. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Postrib,

    From your post:

    What would be the reason for the resurrection of our bodies if only spirit was good?
    ************
    That is it. I'm saying there is no resurrection of the physical body. I can't see where this ever came from.

    1 Cor 15

    44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
    ******************
    If every one is raised a spiritual being then spirit must be able to see spirit...EVERY EYE WILL SEE. The dead don't talk, therefore nobody says "there He is."

    From your post:

    When were these verses and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 fulfilled?

    I would assume when the God inspired writing said they would. Tell me how you can change that word to mean some other time.

    Justme
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    If Jesus‘ physical body wasn't resurrected, why is the tomb empty (John 20:1-9), and why does Jesus still have the wounds of the crucifixion? (Zechariah 13:6)

    "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27).

    "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

    Don’t we already have spirits? (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

    Note that it says our changing into immortal bodies doesn't happen at the moment of the death of this or that individual, but "we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Likewise, note that it says our "catching up" (rapture) doesn't happen at the moment of the death of this or that individual, but will happen at "the coming of the Lord," when "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), that is, the 2nd coming and the resurrection of all the dead in Christ must happen before "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) together with them in the clouds" (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
     
  16. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Postrib,

    Yes, I know about the meeting with Thomas. When did Jesus change to a spirit-I don't know, but again I say flesh and blood can't go to Heaven. When Jesus talked to Paul nobody saw Him,only heard His voice.Look at Acts 10: 39-42? in the NASB. Jesus disappeared while people talked to Him and appeared in rooms without opening doors.
    Why is Jesus' tomb empty, I don't know, but we are talking about God here- the one who invented evolution. I assume He can do most anything.
    From you post:

    ..every one is raised a spiritual being...

    Don’t we already have spirits? (1 Thessalonians 5:23)
    ****************
    I think so, but I didn't make the rules here I just read what is written in the book.

    As I told you I see no rapture at all. Look at the reference you chose. 1 Thess 4. I'm sure you've seen this, but since you brought it up:

    15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who
    are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen
    asleep.
    ********************
    Paul tells the people from Thessalonia that the ones ALIVE at the coming of the son of man will not be resurrected before those who fell asleep before. Paul used the word WE. That means either Paul or some of those he was writing to would be aliveat the coming of the son of man.

    1 Thess4:14-17 are the verses that rapturists quote all the time and it shows the resurrection happening 2000 years ago.

    Justme
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Paul says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50), and note that he goes on to say "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption," so that he must have been referring only to corruptible flesh, for Jesus was resurrected into incorruptible "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39); I believe Jesus said "bones" instead of the usual "blood" because incorruptible "flesh and bones" (without blood as we know it) can inherit the kingdom of God.

    Note that nothing requires that Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) was a physical coming of Jesus to the earth.

    How does this require his resurrection body was not physical?

    Then in what way will we be raised spiritual beings if we're already spiritual beings? What is being raised from the dead?

    "If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Romans 8:11).

    "Rapture" is from the Latin "rapiemur," which is how the old Latin translation of the Bible translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Do you believe we will be "caught up" at the 2nd coming?

    When Paul said "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15), I believe he was referring to we Christians generally, and wasn't including himself, for he knew he was going to die before Jesus came (2 Timothy 4:6), which he did, as did all of the 1st century Thessalonians. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 will be fulfilled because some of us Christians will be alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, which still has not yet occurred for any of us, for when was Jesus' coming seen by every eye of every tribe and kindred on earth, causing them great grief? (Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7) When were those who were still alive and in Christ changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies? (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53) When was the Antichrist destroyed? (2 Thessalonians 2:8) When did Revelation 19 happen? When were Zechariah 14 and Zechariah 12 fulfilled?  

    How?
     
  18. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Postrib,

    Because Paul did say WE WHO REMAIN till the coming.....Paul said WE. In this case when so many verses agree, I say Paul meant just what he said.
    Then you can read the following verses literally as well and notice they all fit together and they all agree. I'll use the very common ones so you don't have to look them all up.
    Matthew 24:34 starts it all off saying, in effect The coming is over, because it all happens in THIS GENERATION meaning of course the trib is over too.
    John 5:25, John 11:25,26, Daniel 12:1,2,
    1 Cor 15:44, Rev. 14:13-end of chapter, John 14:1-3, Luke 17:20,21, Matthew 10:23, Col.1:23.
    PPut togethertheinformation from Hebrews 9:27,28 and John 11:25,26 and that explains that the second coming of Christ is still future for you and I. Rapture? I don't see rapture at all.

    This is what is biblically in store for mankind.
    2 Corinthians 5
    Our Heavenly Dwelling
    1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from
    God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan,
    longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

    Justme
     
  19. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    I believe he was referring to we Christians generally.

    In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that began at the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) would not "pass" until they saw the tribulation and 2nd coming (Matthew 24:32-34). The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948, and I believe that generation won't "pass" (Matthew 24:24) until 70 years later, for Psalm 90:10 refers to people usually passing away after 70 years.

    Can you show from historical sources how 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and each verse of Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16 were all fulfilled?

    Amen.

    You don't believe we will be "caught up" at the 2nd coming of Christ? (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

    Note that we will dwell on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4).
     
  20. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +2
    Postrib says...
    In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that began at the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) would not "pass" until they saw the tribulation and 2nd coming (Matthew 24:32-34). The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948, and I believe that generation won't "pass" (Matthew 24:24) until 70 years later, for Psalm 90:10 refers to people usually passing away after 70 years.

    Hey postrib...

    What are you gonna do if the year 2020 comes along...that'll be over 70 years since the re-establisment of Israel...when that year comes, if I were you,(you may jump on the 1967 bandwagon, so same thing goes for 2037) I would re-evaluate what you take that scripture as meaning...if it takes you that long...
     
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