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End Times - Should We Worry?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by seebs, Jun 1, 2002.

  1. Next ten years.

  2. Next hundred years.

  3. Next thousand years.

  4. I have no idea.

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Hi Franklin . You know my views and I know yours , we are about as opposite as you can get , I'v already been around the clock with Seebs on this issue and got nowhere , there's no point in continuing an end of the world discussion . For me to prove what I believe , will require patients on your behalf , about 20 or 30 years patients . ha ha Have a good day Franklin .
     
  2. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
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    Married
    US-Republican
    I still want to know why I should listen to any particular prediction of the end of the world, given the number that have been made and forgotten...
     
  3. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Hi Seebs . Much of what I have spoken of is what most people already know . You don't have to believe there's a hole in the ozone layer , thats up to you . But there are many places in the bible that speak about the destruction of the earth , and you being a bible reading christian would know that , so whats the prob ?
     
  4. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    In reply to Posttrib,

    Concerning the 1948/fig tree thing. I disagree that this has any basis what-so-ever. In that verse Jesus mentions when you SEE these things ....that indicates someone older than a baby. Do we consider the people who SEE these things to be say 10? That gives us 64 and don't they like to talk about a seven year tribulation? That should have started by now. In any case Luke didn't agree either because he said the fig and ALL trees.

    The nice thing about this is that lots of the people who preach this will live long enough to KNOW they are wrong.

    The fig tree-Israel connection , in my opinion is, garbage.
    We'll know for sure next year??????

    Justme
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Note that we can see the rebudded fig tree (Israel) now, and people older than babies saw it bud the same year it happened. The verse doesn't require that the rebudding of the fig tree be seen by babies the same year it happened.

    I believe this is because since the 2nd World War there has been a tremendous proliferation in the number of nations established as independent entities.

    In the Old Testament the fig tree was a picture of the nation of physical Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:7), and in the New Testament Jesus' cursing of the fig tree was a picture of his coming judgment against the nation of physical Israel:

    "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away... Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:19, 43).

    "And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves" (Mark 11:14-15).

    I don't believe so.

    Are you a futurist? When do you believe the tribulation will begin, and when do you believe the 2nd coming will happen?
     
  6. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Reply to Posttrib,

    I think the episode with the fig tree just demonstrates devine power. To TALK to a plant and have it stop putting forth leaves is impressive. Much like His talking to the wind that night in the boat. Pretty awesome signs that this man was devine.

    You ask if I am a futurist; I don't fall into those categories too great I don't think.
    I see the second coming of Christ, as far as you and I are concerned, as being future. However, I believe Jesus has already judged Chris Columbus.
    I see the bible as telling us that the Great Tribulation was in the first century. I see the event we call the coming of the son of man/kingdom of God/kingdom of Heaven ocurring immediately after that. From that time on mankind has been judged at their death and by their words declared righteous or by their words condemned.
    By your name I guess you favor the agruments of a post trib rapture. I have often wondered how the pre-trib people handle the account of the Great Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse.

    Justme
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I agree it demonstrated divine power, but not just that, for the reasons I stated.


    What do you mean by "as far as you and I are concerned?"
    Do you believe the 2nd coming of Revelation 19 happened in the past for others?

    Based on what scripture?


    What scripture are you thinking of here?


    How did it happen?


    What scripture are you thinking of here?
     
  8. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Posttrib,

    I'll give you an outline that will cover many of your questions above.
    My interpretation from the bible is that Jesus judges at the personal death of each individual. That process began somewhere in the first century. The final day of the planet is the same procedure, except-all die...all are judged and it's over.
    Using scripture it would go like this. Jesus is in charge of all judging :
    John5 :22
    Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

    Judgement is handed down after death.
    Hebrews 9

    27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    If Jesus judges and the judgement is after death we can assume we see Jesus at that point. We are dead at the time. Necessarily it is a spiritual meeting.

    I think at every funeral I have ever been at, John 11:25,26 has been used to illustrate the Heavenly hope of mankind.( Luthern, Anglican, Catholic, United Church of Canada) Note: Where I live there is one JW, two SDA families and a handful of Hutterites. You couldn't find a Morman or a follower of the likes of Hal Lindsey within 50 miles.
    John 11

    25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live,
    even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you
    believe this?"

    Martha physically died so Jesus had to be talking spiritual LIVE and spiritual DIE. It is sewn right up with the NEVER DIE part in verse 26. The physical life ends and the spiritual life begins, in the blink of an eye. We are raised to righteousness or by our words condemned.
    We know from 1 Cor. 15 :44 that there is first a physical body and then that dies and there is a spiritual body.

    So when I said the second coming of Christ for you and I is future, it is, because we haven't died yet. Christopher Columbus has. I see no place in the bible that says any of the people after the first century will be judged at the same time. I see no future resurrection of the masses.
    The Coming of the son of God/ Kingdom of Heaven/ coming of the son of man had to occur in the first century because Jesus said it was going to.
    No one saw this event of course, because any one who SEES Jesus is dead and the dead don't report back to the living. Remember the rich man and Lazarus.Also Luke17:


    20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,
    Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor
    will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[2]
    you."

    So the Kingdom of God/the Kingdom of Heaven/ the coming of the son of man is WIThIN YOU or invisible to the physically living and extremely real to the recently dead.
    Again no one ever said "Here it is" because those who see the Kingdom of God/coming of the son of man are dead. Every eye WILL see Him because everyone dies physically. All this is a spiritual happening.

    The literal reading of Mark 13 or Luke 21 leave no doubt as to meaning, from the mention of the destruction to the verse about ..all these things... It means first century as far as I am concerned. The rest of the conversation after Matt.24 : 34 may refer to other things or maybe not, but the coming of theson of man occurs after the tribulation which isall par of aall these 'things.' That is what it says. I look at it if The coming of the son of man/kingdom of Heaven didn't occur then when Jesus said it was going to there is no need looking into Christianity any further because the main character lied. So once again if Jesus didn't lie the coming of the kingdom had to be something mortal man couldn't see or be otherwise hidden somehow. Spiritual..

    I never look at Revelation to develop an interpretation.Revelation HAS GOT to follow the rest of the new testament, especially the gospel. If you have ever read two or three summaries of Rev on the same day, you can wonder if the people are talking about the same book. The reason for that is because nobody knows what Revalation says, in my opinion.

    There is some of the scriptures I would use to answer your questions above.

    Justme
     
  9. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    So you do not believe in the resurrection of the body?
     
  10. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Mandy,
    No, I don't if you mean the physical body. The resurrection of you and I will be spiritual or nuthin' as I see it.

    Justme
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    How do you understand Revelation 20:4-5?

    What verse are you thinking of here?

    Note that in Luke 17:20-21, Jesus was replying to the Pharisees, who expected Christ to conquer the world physically at his 1st coming. He was trying to get them to realize that they had to be conquered on the inside first -- as he had told them previously: all they cared about was externals (Luke 11:39).

    Notice that right after Luke 17:20-21, Jesus goes on to explain to his disciples that he had to die first, but that after that he would be revealed to destroy all his enemies (Luke 17:22-30). This is confirmed in other passages, which also foretell the day when the kingdom would come with observation (Mark 13:26-27, Revelation 1:7).

    How do you understand 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52?
     
  12. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi posttrib,

    What verse tells me that Jesus said He was coming in the first century? Matthew 24 1-34,
    Matthew chapter 10. Jesus lays out orders to preach the gospel, identifies who He means and in verse 23 says He will come before they get thru some city/cities. Matthew 16 : 28, Mark 9 :1, describing the transfiguration, John 21 :20 -23?(guessing. These verses are the end all in any discussion I've had concerning this.The only thing I've ever heard back was "it's so obvious why can't you see what Jesus really means?" Which means "we have no way to rationalize these verses. Maybe you have some explanation for these?
    Carrying on, there is a verse in Matthew 24 that tells us the end will come after the gospel is preached; Col 1 : 23 says that is a done deal, therefore one of the THINGS Matthew 24 :34, is in line, that means ALL of the THINGS are complete because Jesus said all these things....

    You brought up 1 Thess 4 which I see as another group of verses verifying that the conclusion I drew from the scripture I have listed above would be correct.
    If you go back to Daniel 12, the first 4 or 5 verses tell of the Great tribulation and talks about the dead who 'sleep' to come awake after that tribulation. The coming of the son of man/kingdom of God/ occur immediately after that great tribulation as well. There is only one great tribulation, biblically speaking so we are talking about the same time frame here (Matthew 24 again)
    Now 1 Thess 4, which is spoken in the same time frame as Matthew 24 indicates this great tribulation to be, Paul says the following:
    1 Thess
    15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who
    ARE LEFT TIL THE COMING OF THE LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen
    asleep.

    And Paul uses the word WE! Either him or some of the people of Thessalonia are WE. They will be alive at the coming of the son of man and some sort of resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen. The WE will later meet with Jesus in the air.
    Further to that if you like Revelation, John says blessed are those who DIE in the Lord from now on...(Rev 14 : 13) and read what happens in the next few verses.
    These are a few of the verses that lead me to interpret the bible as I do, there are some others.

    Sorry, you asked about 1 Cor 15.
    At our death in the blink of an eye we may go from the physical to the spiritual, thereby eliminating death. Death has been abolished. 2 Tim 1 : 10. Notice that death being abolished was past tense when Paul wrote this 2000 years ago. That would mean ALL of the enemies have been made a footstool and on and on...

    Can you share how you read the last few verses of John 21?

    Justme
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 10:23 says the disciples won't go over all the cities of Israel before Jesus comes. They didn't, we haven't, and he hasn't. I believe the prophecy will be fulfilled because he will come again before all the cities of Israel have been gone over by his disciples.

    Yes, I believe these two verses were fulfilled at the transfiguration.

    "Yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" (John 21:23) Note that this doesn't require a coming of Christ before John died; it only required Peter to not be jealous of John for not having to be martyred like Peter had just been told he would be (John 21:19). I don't believe Jesus was telling Peter that John would tarry until Jesus came, only that Peter should consider his reaction IF Jesus' willed that John never die while Peter would have to die a cruel death (by crucifixion upside down, as it turned out). 

    Note that "was preached" (KJV) in Colossians 1:23 is a translation from the original Greek aorist tense, which is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. One translation of this verse that captures the aorist flavor is "You heard the same good news as is told to everyone in the whole world" (Worldwide English Translation). If the gospel had already been preached to everyone, I don't believe Paul would have spoken elsewhere of his desire "to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand" (2 Corinthians 10:16), and today's missionaries would not be troubling themselves to reach remote tribes in places like Borneo and the Amazon which have not yet heard the gospel.

    Even if Paul at one time expected the 2nd coming in his lifetime (contrast 2 Timothy 4:6), I believe that it still has not yet occurred for anyone, for when was Jesus' coming seen by every eye of every tribe and kindred on earth, causing them great grief? (Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7) When were those who were still alive and in Christ changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies? (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53) When was the Antichrist destroyed? (2 Thessalonians 2:8) When did Revelation 19 happen? When were Zechariah 14 and Zechariah 12 fulfilled?

    Note that the Bible doesn't say the resurrection happens at the moment of the death of this or that individual, but will happen at "the coming of the Lord," when "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), that is, the 2nd coming must occur first.

    Note that "hath abolished" (KJV) in 2 Timothy 1:10 is a translation from the original Greek aorist tense, which is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. Death will continue its work upon mankind until it is cast into the lake of fire after the millennium and the 2nd resurrection (Revelation 20:13-14).  

    At the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-5), the mortal bodies of believers will be resurrected, for Jesus "shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21), for "if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Romans 8:11), "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:52-55)

    The bodies of all believers who have ever died are still in their graves, and we are still dying.
     
  14. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Posttrib,

    From your post:

    I believe the prophecy will be fulfilled because he will come again before all the cities of Israel have been gone over by his disciples.

    He listed the names of the people who would not get thru the cities so how would you get those disciples to still be preaching around the cities of anywhere?

    John 21
    23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

    Jesus said if I want him (John) to remain alive until I return......that is My business, Pete!

    Peter was told he was going to die a certain way to glorify God. Peter was told if Jesus wants John to stay alive so be it. Peter was to die, John was to live until His return IF Jesus wanted John to live until His return. Either there is a verse somewhere that says John could live a minimum of 2000 years or it means exactly what it says.

    Col 1: 23
    Concerning Col. 1 : 23 the aorist tense is definately involved. For anyone else reading this that doesn't know what this is, here is an explanation I found.

    Tense - Aorist

    The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

    The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.
    The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.
    *******************

    I'd stay with the way the interpreters wrote it in say KJV.

    If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the
    hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature
    which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    Besides it agrees with Matthew 10 ; 23 as written.
    I'll say again, the missionaries in Borneo are not listed by name in Matthew 10.

    From your post:
    When were those who were still alive and in Christ changed in the twinkling of an
    eye into immortal bodies?
    *************
    When they died.

    1 Thess 4.....

    You didn't deal with the phrase here. I gather you disregard this because no one SAW Jesus coming.
    That is the point... the coming of the Kingdom of God is not visible to the living. Parousia (Greek) means coming or PRESENCE.
    The phrase is "we who are still alive, and remain til the coming......" How do you see this?

    From your post:
    Note that the Bible doesn't say the resurrection happens at the moment of the death of this or that individual,
    ******************
    Well, when you put together John 11 :25, 26, Hebrews 9 : 27, Luke 23 : 43,1 Cor. 15 :44 and others, what else can it say?

    From your post:
    The bodies of all believers who have ever died are still in their graves, and we are still dying.

    Yes, and not only believers, and remaining in graves after dying will continue to be a part of every living mortal creature that is ever born on earth. 1 Cor.15-44

    Justme
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I don't. Those disciples died before they preached to every city of Israel. Jesus didn't come and instantly transform them while still alive into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53). The 2nd coming hasn't happened yet. The prophecy of Matthew 10:23 will be fulfilled because the 2nd coming will happen before all the cities of Israel have been gone over by his disciples past or present.

    Jesus didn't want that. "Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die." John died. Jesus wanted Peter to not be jealous of John for not having to be martyred like Peter would be (John 21:19); Jesus wanted Peter to consider his reaction IF Jesus had willed that John never die while Peter would have to die a cruel death.

    But note again that the Greek itself doesn't indicate a past tense. And again, if the gospel had already been preached to everyone, I don't believe Paul would have spoken elsewhere of his desire "to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand" (2 Corinthians 10:16), and today's missionaries would not be troubling themselves to reach remote tribes in places like Borneo and the Amazon which have not yet heard the gospel.

    How? Matthew 10:23 says they wouldn't reach every city of Israel.

     Note that I asked: When were those who were still alive and in Christ changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies?

    "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

    Note that in Luke 17:20-21, Jesus was replying to the Pharisees, who expected Christ to conquer the world physically at his 1st coming. He was trying to get them to realize that they had to be conquered on the inside first -- as he had told them previously: all they cared about was externals (Luke 11:39).

    Notice that right after Luke 17:20-21, Jesus goes on to explain to his disciples that he had to die first, but that after that he would be revealed to destroy all his enemies (Luke 17:22-30). This is confirmed in other passages, which also foretell the day when the kingdom would come with observation (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30).

    When Paul said "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15), I believe he was referring to we Christians generally, and wasn't including himself, for he knew he was going to die before Jesus came (2 Timothy 4:6), which he did, as did all of the 1st century Thessalonians. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 will be fulfilled because some of us Christians will be alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, which still has not yet occurred for any of us, for, again, when was Jesus' coming seen by every eye of every tribe and kindred on earth, causing them great grief? (Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7) When were those who were still alive and in Christ changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies? (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53) When was the Antichrist destroyed? (2 Thessalonians 2:8) When did Revelation 19 happen? When were Zechariah 14 and Zechariah 12 fulfilled?

    How do any of these require that the resurrection happens at the moment of the death of this or that individual?

    I don't believe so. Note again that at the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-5), the mortal bodies of believers will be resurrected, for Jesus "shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21), for "if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Romans 8:11), "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:52-55)
     
  16. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi,

    The difference here is simply this, you envision a physical return of Jesus Christ and I can't see any possibility of that in scripture anywhere.

    Your last statement:
    Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:52-55

    Yes, indeed. You know that death was the last enemy and you know Paul spoke these words 2000 years ago.

    2 Tim 1
    10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath
    abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

    Here it is stated death HAS BEEN destroyed-over.

    Could you lay out some of the key verses and arguments thereof that lead you to believe in a physical return of Jesus as discussed in Matthew 24, Luke 21 or Mark 13?

    I have to tell you that how you BELIEVE is not a debateable issue, that is your business and your choice. I just like discussing this stuff. Probably most of all to see if anyone can blow holes in my ideas.

    Justme
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note again that "hath abolished" in 2 Timothy 1:10 is a translation from the original Greek aorist tense, which is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. We are still dying. Death will continue its work upon mankind until it is cast into the lake of fire after the millennium and the 2nd resurrection (Revelation 20:13-14).

    I believe Jesus' 2nd coming must be physical because Jesus must come back from heaven (Acts 3:20-21) just as physically as he left: "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). He physically went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven. He will physically return from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives: "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4); "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?" (Zechariah 13:6)

    I believe Jesus' 2nd coming must be physical because it must be seen by every eye of every tribe and kindred on earth, causing them great grief (Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7).
     
  18. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Posttrib,

    Here are verses from Acts 10.

    0 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
    41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did
    eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

    That 'shewed Him openly'; what's that all about and 'shewing' Him openly only to certain people. It never made sense to me until I read NASB on this verse.

    God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, !!!!!!!

    That explains how Jesus walked into rooms without opening doors, why Jesus disappeared while in conversation. Also remember what body Jesus had when He met Paul.
    Also remember in 1 Cor 15 where it is stated that there is a earthly body, a Heavenly body , a physical body and a spiritual body. The physical body (flesh and blood) can not go to Heaven, what other choice is there? There is the glorious body Jesus has that we will have also someday and that would have to be the spiritual or invisible body. (At least invisible to living beings.)

    I have never heard any say Jesus is anywhere but in Heaven today. Flesh and blood, the natural body, can not enter Heaven. That means Jesus arrived in Heaven with His Heavenly, imperishable, immortal, spiritual body. When the two men saw Him on the cloud, it was said He would return that same way. If He went out on a cloud in a spiritual ( invisible to the living) body, He will return that way, too.

    So it is highly unlikely that the Jesus they watched ascend was flesh and blood, it was highly unlikely it was the natural body, it is highly unlikely it was the perishable body. That leaves only the spiritual, invisible to living people, body which the book says Jesus will come back in. Spiritual.
    Now combine that with all those aorist tense statements that only on rare occasions are future and it fits together perfectly just as it is written; no need to explain away past tenses that once in a thousand may, could be, perhaps, once in a while-- future.

    Where would Jesus return on earth so that every living eye would see Him, yet no one would say "there it is'"? Luke 17 : 21.
    To put that question another way how can everyone on the planet SEE Jesus, yet never tell others about it? Remember Larurus and the rich man.

    Justme


    Justme
     
  19. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +147
    Christian
    Single
    Hi justme . I think you should read Lazarith and the rich man again , your not seeing it correctly .

    And pay special attention as to what group of people listen to moses and the prophets ( jews ) .

    And though one should rise from the dead ( jesus did just that ) they ( the jews ) will not listen .

    The rich man dressed in purple represents the jews and Lazarith the poor man represents the Gentiles .

    You will then understand Lazarith being in Abrahams bossom and the great divide or gulf or void that is between them . by .
     
  20. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Brian,

    OR Lazaus could just represent a dead guy and the rich man could represent another dead guy.

    After Christ, what is the difference Jew and Gentile?
    Justme
     
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