Elusive, baffling neutrinos, and unknown physics

Halbhh

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NOVA just had an enjoyable episode that those with and without degrees such as in physics would find interesting, about the frontier of physics in neutrinos, the extremely elusive particles of which perhaps 100 trillion pass through you and me each second.

They might hold the key to understanding dark matter, the unknown type of matter thought to be more than 4/5ths of all matter in the Universe.

Neutrinos look likely to be breaking (showing incomplete) the well established, highly validated and extremely precise 50 year old Standard Model that had accounted for so far 17 fundamental particles.

Fun stuff.

Here's a BBC version:


Or, you could alternatively watch it if you have PBS passport at the PBS NOVA site, at this link:

NOVA: Particles Unknown
 
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Halbhh

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sjastro

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NOVA just had an enjoyable episode that those with and without degrees such as in physics would find interesting, about the frontier of physics in neutrinos, the extremely elusive particles of which perhaps 100 trillion pass through you and me each second.

They might hold the key to understanding dark matter, the unknown type of matter thought to be more than 4/5ths of all matter in the Universe.

Neutrinos look likely to be breaking (showing incomplete) the well established, highly validated and extremely precise 50 year old Standard Model that had accounted for so far 17 fundamental particles.

Fun stuff.

You can watch it for free at the PBS NOVA site, at this link:

NOVA: Particles Unknown
Unfortunately I got a 'video is unavailable' message.

Neutrinos have the characteristics of dark matter particularly a zero charge as opposed to the neutral charge of a neutron.
Dark matter exhibits clumping around galaxies which is a problem if they are composed of neutrinos as in the early history of the universe the hotter temperatures would given neutrinos very high kinetic energies preventing their concentration due to gravity.
The sterile neutrons theorized in the transcript having mass would allow neutrinos to clump.
 
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Halbhh

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Unfortunately I got a 'video is unavailable' message.

Neutrinos have the characteristics of dark matter particularly a zero charge as opposed to the neutral charge of a neutron.
Dark matter exhibits clumping around galaxies which is a problem if they are composed of neutrinos as in the early history of the universe the hotter temperatures would given neutrinos very high kinetic energies preventing their concentration due to gravity.
The sterile neutrons theorized in the transcript having mass would allow neutrinos to clump.
Interesting to think about. A hope is that if the Standard Model is shown inadequate, new physics might include something to help understand dark matter.

That's the latest NOVA episode, so it might have a 2nd airing on your local PBS station before the next episode
 
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pacomascarot

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NOVA just had an enjoyable episode that those with and without degrees such as in physics would find interesting, about the frontier of physics in neutrinos, the extremely elusive particles of which perhaps 100 trillion pass through you and me each second.

They might hold the key to understanding dark matter, the unknown type of matter thought to be more than 4/5ths of all matter in the Universe.

Neutrinos look likely to be breaking (showing incomplete) the well established, highly validated and extremely precise 50 year old Standard Model that had accounted for so far 17 fundamental particles.

Fun stuff.

You can watch it for free at the PBS NOVA site, at this link:

NOVA: Particles Unknown

Frank Close's book "Neutrino" is also a good intro as well.
 
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Halbhh

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I think this article is interesting:

"One solution, proposed earlier by the Italian physicist Bruno Pontecorvo, was that neutrinos are shape-shifters. .... In time, theorists homed in on a description of how neutrinos oscillate between types depending on their energy and travel distance that matched the data coming from the sun and sky.

But the idea of shape-shifting neutrinos was hard for many physicists to stomach. The math only works if each of the three neutrino species is a quantum mechanical mix of three different masses — in other words, shape-shifting means neutrinos must have mass. But the Standard Model of particle physics, the well-tested set of equations describing the known elementary particles and forces, unequivocally deems neutrinos massless. ...
...
...
Death of the Sterile Neutrino
Anomaly chasers had come to a fork in the path, and the signs pointed in opposite directions. More evidence supported the existence of three neutrinos than four. Then another blow for sterile neutrinos came from the Planck space telescope.
... (continues...)

Is the Great Neutrino Puzzle Pointing to Multiple Missing Particles? | Quanta Magazine
 
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Halbhh

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"...Brand-new experimental results fit that narrative. Fermilab’s MicroBooNE experiment, a follow-up to MiniBooNE that was reconfigured to correct the flaw, will soon report in Physical Review Letters that sterile neutrinos alone cannot account for the MiniBooNE anomaly. Yet the results are consistent with the possibility that only half of MiniBooNE’s events are due to neutrino oscillations. MicroBooNE reported recently that decays of familiar Standard Model particles almost certainly can’t account for the rest of the events. The possibility of heavy particles from the dark sector decaying inside MiniBooNE will be determined next year in MicroBooNE’s next release...."
 
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Halbhh

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This article has quite a bit in it, really interesting.

This bit was fun too:
"...Inventing undetectable particles, Pauli advised, is something no theorist should do."

:cool: (unless it works!)

"Fortunately, physicists may be able to hear whispers of the invisible world through the three familiar neutrinos. “The neutrino is itself essentially a dark particle,” said Neal Weiner, a particle physicist at New York University. “It has the ability to interact and mix with other dark particles, which none of the other particles in the Standard Model can.”
 
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Halbhh

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I found a way for you to see what's all in that NOVA episode, as broadcast by the BBC.

And, while it's got fun and interesting history of discovery, it's also pretty current since it shows some about the Fermi-lab experiment aimed to find the possible new neutrinos, which is happening right now :)

(starts with a brief orientation, but quickly gets pretty interesting in the history; if you watch, let me know if you liked or what you thought)


Unfortunately I got a 'video is unavailable' message.

Neutrinos have the characteristics of dark matter particularly a zero charge as opposed to the neutral charge of a neutron.
Dark matter exhibits clumping around galaxies which is a problem if they are composed of neutrinos as in the early history of the universe the hotter temperatures would given neutrinos very high kinetic energies preventing their concentration due to gravity.
The sterile neutrons theorized in the transcript having mass would allow neutrinos to clump.
 
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sjastro

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I found a way for you to see what's all in that NOVA episode, as broadcast by the BBC.

And, while it's got fun and interesting history of discovery, it's also pretty current since it shows some about the Fermi-lab experiment aimed to find the possible new neutrinos, which is happening right now :)

(starts with a brief orientation, but quickly gets pretty interesting in the history; if you watch, let me know if you liked or what you thought)

Thanks for that when I get the opportunity I'll watch the video.
 
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sjastro

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I found a way for you to see what's all in that NOVA episode, as broadcast by the BBC.

And, while it's got fun and interesting history of discovery, it's also pretty current since it shows some about the Fermi-lab experiment aimed to find the possible new neutrinos, which is happening right now :)

(starts with a brief orientation, but quickly gets pretty interesting in the history; if you watch, let me know if you liked or what you thought)

I found the documentary interesting and informative but there was a missing ingredient which I suppose the highlights the difficulty cramming into a one hour program.
There was hardly any mention of primordial or cosmic neutrinos produced one second after the Big Bang.
These neutrinos had an enormous effect on the entropy of the universe.
Before decoupling from quarks and leptons the very early universe had reached thermal equilibrium.

How neutrinos affected this thermal equilibrium and the methods of detecting these primordial particles deserves a separate program in itself.
 
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Halbhh

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I found the documentary interesting and informative but there was a missing ingredient which I suppose the highlights the difficulty cramming into a one hour program.
There was hardly any mention of primordial or cosmic neutrinos produced one second after the Big Bang.
These neutrinos had an enormous effect on the entropy of the universe.
Before decoupling from quarks and leptons the very early universe had reached thermal equilibrium.

How neutrinos affected this thermal equilibrium and the methods of detecting these primordial particles deserves a separate program in itself.

(autocorrect typo corrected)

Slow neutrinos would be so interesting. (e.g. what if they were abundant enough to compose much of dark matter?) But how could we detect slow neutrinos? And that's perhaps apart from whether there might be a fundamental new kind also.
 
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sjastro

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Slow neutrons would be so interesting. (e.g. what if they were abundant enough to compose much of dark matter?) But how could we detect slow neutrons? And that's perhaps apart from whether there might be a fundamental new kind also.
I'm afraid you have lost me on this one.
The only slow neutrons I'm familiar with involve nuclear fission.
Nuclear Fission.
 
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Halbhh

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I'm afraid you have lost me on this one.
The only slow neutrons I'm familiar with involve nuclear fission.
Nuclear Fission.
Lol. I should check carefully the auto corrected posts from phone, which is hard to read in the sun, etc. Of course I meant what I've been discussing in this entire thread, neutrinos.

Slow neutrinos -- what I presumed you might have meant to suggest (even though we can't detect them), since you referred also to neutrinos from the early Universe -- would be so interesting. (e.g. what if they were abundant enough (that is, contrary to our incomplete ideas we have so far) to compose much of dark matter?) But how could we detect slow neutrinos? And that's perhaps apart from whether there might be a fundamental new kind also.
 
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Halbhh

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I think that he conflated neutrons with neutrinos.
Try a more obvious and rational explanation: phone, sun, auto correct. And a bit careless about checking. If you read and/or watch the video and articles referenced above, this thread would be easier to understand I think, since then you'd have context.
 
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Halbhh

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I found the documentary interesting and informative but there was a missing ingredient which I suppose the highlights the difficulty cramming into a one hour program.
There was hardly any mention of primordial or cosmic neutrinos produced one second after the Big Bang.
These neutrinos had an enormous effect on the entropy of the universe.
Before decoupling from quarks and leptons the very early universe had reached thermal equilibrium.

How neutrinos affected this thermal equilibrium and the methods of detecting these primordial particles deserves a separate program in itself.

There might not only be possible slower neutrinos (as you'd get left over from the Big Bang in theory), but also heavier ones, according to a newer idea:

Is the Great Neutrino Puzzle Pointing to Multiple Missing Particles? | Quanta Magazine

So, the neutrino experiments as pointed out earlier in this thread, are so interesting because they might help get at (or try to) what is dark matter.
 
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sjastro

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Lol. I should check carefully the auto corrected posts from phone, which is hard to read in the sun, etc. Of course I meant what I've been discussing in this entire thread, neutrinos.

Slow neutrinos -- what I presumed you might have meant to suggest (even though we can't detect them), since you referred also to neutrinos from the early Universe -- would be so interesting. (e.g. what if they were abundant enough (that is, contrary to our incomplete ideas we have so far) to compose much of dark matter?) But how could we detect slow neutrinos? And that's perhaps apart from whether there might be a fundamental new kind also.
In this context the primordial cosmic neutrinos are slow.
Since neutrinos are now known to carry mass their kinetic energies depend on temperature.
The theoretical cosmic neutrino background is around 2K and it's possible they now travel at non relativistic speeds.
As a result they have extremely low energies, lower than solar neutrinos and are beyond the range of our current neutrino detectors.
As a far as being a possible constituent of dark matter the same problems apply; in the early universe the kinetic energy of the cosmic neutrinos was too high for the neutrinos to clump and cannot explain the rotation curves of spiral galaxies which require the clumping or concentration of dark matter.
 
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