Ellen White's Sabbath in Eden is Not Biblical

[Dale]

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Here is yet another way we can know that the claim made by Bob Ryan in post #82, that the Ten Commandments were given to Adam and Eve in Eden, is wrong. The Bible says it's wrong, and that statement is practically in the Ten Commandments.


2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 NIV

Deuteronomy Chapter Five goes on to give the Ten Commandments, for the second time in the Bible. The Bible itself flatly denies that the Ten Commandments were ever given before they were given at Sinai, or Horeb, as it is called here. Since Adam and Eve are the ancestors of everyone, they are the ancestors of Abraham, Jacob and Moses. Deuteronomy tells us that the Commandments weren't given to the ancestors of Moses, so they were not given to Adam and Eve, either in the Garden of Eden or later.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who go to church on Saturday, or advocate Sabbath observance, often say that God ordained the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. It is assumed that Christians are obligated to obey the Ten Commandments, although no verse in the New Testament that exactly says so. The Ten Commandments were specifically given to the Jews, to Israel. Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White,

That turns out not to be true at all -- as we saw here

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.



Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

So then "ignoring all that"as if "details don't matter" ... we get

Here is yet another way we can know that the claim made by Bob Ryan in post #82, that the Ten Commandments were given to Adam and Eve in Eden, is wrong. The Bible says it's wrong, and that statement is practically in the Ten Commandments.


2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 NIV

Hint "BobRyan is not C.H. Spurgeon or D.L. Moody or Westminster Confession of Faith" -- in otherwords almost all of Christendom knows the Bible affirms the Law of God for all mankind just as the Bible teaches in places such as Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-11 and 1 cor 7:19 and Eph 6:2 and Rev 14:12 and Rom 3:31 ... etc.

As for Deut 5 -- you are "equivocating" again. Duet 5 talks about the covenant (agreement) God made at Sinai with Israel which covered a lot more than "do not take God's name in vain" --- a lot more than the TEN.

The Chosen nation status that we see in Ex 19 was not being offered to any other nation. The fact that BOTH Israel and the world in general were obligated by "Do not take God's name in vain" cannot be "equivocated" to the unique covenant "agreement" made with the nation of Israel at Sinai as if they are th same thing.

That is where the section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the same section in the "Westminster Confession of Faith" have a great deal of clarity in supporting the Bible teaching we find in --Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-11 and 1 cor 7:19 and Eph 6:2 and Rev 14:12 and Rom 3:31 ... etc.

And that is an example of why your solution of conflating the two is not working.

 

[mmksparbud]

Here is yet another way we can know that the claim made by Bob Ryan in post #82, that the Ten Commandments were given to Adam and Eve in Eden, is wrong. The Bible says it's wrong, and that statement is practically in the Ten Commandments.


2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 NIV

Deuteronomy Chapter Five goes on to give the Ten Commandments, for the second time in the Bible. The Bible itself flatly denies that the Ten Commandments were ever given before they were given at Sinai, or Horeb, as it is called here. Since Adam and Eve are the ancestors of everyone, they are the ancestors of Abraham, Jacob and Moses. Deuteronomy tells us that the Commandments weren't given to the ancestors of Moses, so they were not given to Adam and Eve, either in the Garden of Eden or later.

That's right--the "covenant" was made at Mt. Sinai---the 10 commandments were before any covenant.
The Sabbath was made at creation--
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all
his work which God created and made.

It is Jesus that made the Sabbath at creation, And it is Jesus that said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." and man began with Adam and Eve.

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Where there is no law there is no sin--

Gen_4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain could not be accused of sin if he didn't know about it.

All these references to sin were before Sinai:

Gen_18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen_20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen_31:36 And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? what is my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?
Gen_39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

The law was there from creation or there could have been no sin.
If there is no law today---there is no sin.

 

[mmksparbud]

Here is yet another way we can know that the claim made by Bob Ryan in post #82, that the Ten Commandments were given to Adam and Eve in Eden, is wrong. The Bible says it's wrong, and that statement is practically in the Ten Commandments.


2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 NIV

Deuteronomy Chapter Five goes on to give the Ten Commandments, for the second time in the Bible. The Bible itself flatly denies that the Ten Commandments were ever given before they were given at Sinai, or Horeb, as it is called here. Since Adam and Eve are the ancestors of everyone, they are the ancestors of Abraham, Jacob and Moses. Deuteronomy tells us that the Commandments weren't given to the ancestors of Moses, so they were not given to Adam and Eve, either in the Garden of Eden or later.

That's right--the "covenant" was made at Mt. Sinai---the 10 commandments were before any covenant.
The Sabbath was made at creation--
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all
his work which God created and made.

It is Jesus that made the Sabbath at creation, And it is Jesus that said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." and man began with Adam and Eve.

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Where there is no law there is no sin--

Gen_4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain could not be accused of sin if he didn't know about it.

All these references to sin were before Sinai:

Gen_18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen_20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen_31:36 And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What is my trespass? what is my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?
Gen_39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

The law was there from creation or there could have been no sin.
If there is no law today---there is no sin.

 

[Dale]

That turns out not to be true at all -- as we saw here



So then "ignoring all that"as if "details don't matter" ... we get



Hint "BobRyan is not C.H. Spurgeon or D.L. Moody or Westminster Confession of Faith" -- in otherwords almost all of Christendom knows the Bible affirms the Law of God for all mankind just as the Bible teaches in places such as Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-11 and 1 cor 7:19 and Eph 6:2 and Rev 14:12 and Rom 3:31 ... etc.

As for Deut 5 -- you are "equivocating" again. Duet 5 talks about the covenant (agreement) God made at Sinai with Israel which covered a lot more than "do not take God's name in vain" --- a lot more than the TEN.

The Chosen nation status that we see in Ex 19 was not being offered to any other nation. The fact that BOTH Israel and the world in general were obligated by "Do not take God's name in vain" cannot be "equivocated" to the unique covenant "agreement" made with the nation of Israel at Sinai as if they are th same thing.

That is where the section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the same section in the "Westminster Confession of Faith" have a great deal of clarity in supporting the Bible teaching we find in --Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-11 and 1 cor 7:19 and Eph 6:2 and Rev 14:12 and Rom 3:31 ... etc.

And that is an example of why your solution of conflating the two is not working.

Bob Ryan,

So you specifically ignore what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, that the Ten Commandments were not given to the ancestors of the Jews who were at Sinai.

Then you go on to repeat the same distortions and misrepresentations that you have already repeated over and over.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,
So you specifically ignore what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 5:2-3,

No not in real life. In real life I point to the distinctive differences unique to Israel as Deut 5 also mentions. (Hint: how many other nations gathered at Sinai???) -- and then I stated the obvious that all Christians agree to - which is that nobody is supposed to be "taking God's name in vain" ... all details that you entirely ignored in your response to my post. (Probably for obvious reasons once we see how difficult it has been for you to make an objective case so far.)

Having failed to make your case in the OP -- as I already pointed out - you then resort to false accusations?? Seriously?

Your pattern of "ignoring almost everything in the post you respond to " -- means the "answer" is still in the post.

As we saw here --

============================================

Hint "BobRyan is not C.H. Spurgeon or D.L. Moody or Westminster Confession of Faith" -- in otherwords almost all of Christendom knows the Bible affirms the Law of God for all mankind just as the Bible teaches in places such as Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-11 and 1 cor 7:19 and Eph 6:2 and Rev 14:12 and Rom 3:31 ... etc. (an objective example so obvious that BOTH sides admit to it)

As for Deut 5 -- you are "equivocating" again. Duet 5 talks about the covenant (agreement) God made at Sinai with Israel which covered a lot more than "do not take God's name in vain" --- a lot more than the TEN.

 

[Major1]

No not in real life. In real life I point to the distinctive differences unique to Israel as Deut 5 also mentions. (Hint: how many other nations gathered at Sinai???) -- and then I stated the obvious that all Christians agree to - which is that nobody is supposed to be "taking God's name in vain" ... all details that you entirely ignored in your response to my post. (Probably for obvious reasons once we see how difficult it has been for you to make an objective case so far.)

Having failed to make your case in the OP -- as I already pointed out - you then resort to false accusations?? Seriously?

Your pattern of "ignoring almost everything in the post you respond to " -- means the "answer" is still in the post.

As we saw here --

============================================

Hint "BobRyan is not C.H. Spurgeon or D.L. Moody or Westminster Confession of Faith" -- in otherwords almost all of Christendom knows the Bible affirms the Law of God for all mankind just as the Bible teaches in places such as Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6-11 and 1 cor 7:19 and Eph 6:2 and Rev 14:12 and Rom 3:31 ... etc. (an objective example so obvious that BOTH sides admit to it)

As for Deut 5 -- you are "equivocating" again. Duet 5 talks about the covenant (agreement) God made at Sinai with Israel which covered a lot more than "do not take God's name in vain" --- a lot more than the TEN.

I am actually perplexed at how normal people can come to accept the 7th Day theology. We are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation.

The REAL LIFE FACTS are that If you receive Christ as your Saviour through the SDA's, only your past sins, up to that moment are forgiven.

Now you must get to work to earn your salvation.
Ellen G. White said in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald of 10-26-1897 this statement,

"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God".

Of course, it is the fourth commandment that is stressed, since Ellen saw this one glowing in one of her visions. Salvation now becomes dependent on which day of the week one observes.

Modern Adventists keep sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as the Sabbath, but earlier in their history they kept 6 p.m. Friday to 6 p.m. Saturday.

The rest of us "Sunday keepers" are doomed to receive the "mark of the beast" and lose our eternal life. (The Spirit of Prophecy V. 4, p. 505). They sure don't say this at their seminars!

 

[BobRyan]

I am actually perplexed at how normal people can come to accept the 7th Day theology.

So you are perplexed how it is that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith" etc could possibly all have known that the Sabbath Commandment - of Exodus 20... of the TEN Commandments could have applied to all mankind starting in Eden? Even though as pointed out - Christ speaks of the MAKING of both mankind and the Sabbath saying that the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind"??

This somehow escapes you??


You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to do that?

The REAL LIFE FACTS are that If you receive Christ as your Savior then the NEW Covenant take effect for you - and the "LAW" of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on heart and mind. Jer 31:31-33

Modern Adventists keep sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as the Sabbath,

True but for a few years from 1851 some Adventists urged that the Sabbath began at 6pm each day -- and then in 1855 they switched to the Lev 23 version - of sunset.

Of course before that they were almost all keeping week-day-1 in some fashion.

And of course ALL the Sunday groups listed freely admit that the Sabbath of the Bible is the 7th day Sabbath as given by God in the OT and that it applied (as do ALL the TEN) to all mankind. They only wish to "bend it" to point to week day 1 sometime later.

 

[Major1]

So you are perplexed how it is that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith" etc could possibly all have known that the Sabbath Commandment - of Exodus 20... of the TEN Commandments could have applied to all mankind starting in Eden? Even though as pointed out - Christ speaks of the MAKING of both mankind and the Sabbath saying that the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind"??

This somehow escapes you??


You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to do that?

The REAL LIFE FACTS are that If you receive Christ as your Savior then the NEW Covenant take effect for you - and the "LAW" of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on heart and mind. Jer 31:31-33




True but for a few years from 1851 some Adventists urged that the Sabbath began at 6pm each day -- and then in 1855 they switched to the Lev 23 version - of sunset.

Of course before that they were almost all keeping week-day-1 in some fashion.

And of course ALL the Sunday groups listed freely admit that the Sabbath of the Bible is the 7th day Sabbath as given by God in the OT and that it applied (as do ALL the TEN) to all mankind. They only wish to "bend it" to point to week day 1 sometime later.

NO.

Honestly I was trying to use those words in a nice way to identify YOU. I guess you did not understand.

I will try another method.

Anyone who believes that we must keep any law to be saved or to stay saved is IMO teaching some kind of Religion which is not found in the Bible.

Gal. 3:11...…….
"Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Forget about keeping all 633 Laws. I will be very clear here and say to you that NO ONE can even keep only the 10 Commandments.

Allow me to then say to you that the law was never given to the New Testament believer at all but instead to the Old Testament believer. IT WAS NOT GIVEN AS A MEANS OF SALVATION AT ALL!!!!!!

It was a standard they were to live by. It was given for the reason- to increase sin and show us that we are sinful.

I TELL YOU AGAIN THAT the law is given to increase sin to show our sinfulness.

READ THE BOOK !!!!!!!!

Rom. 5:20:...……
“Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.”

Gal 3:19: ………..
“What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.”

In other words when Christ (the seed) was born there would be an and to the law.

I in all honesty can not understand how this is so difficult that YOU can not understand it.

Gal. 3:23-25:...……
“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor (to lead us) to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. "

NO MORE (Old Testament) LAW. V. 26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Everything in the New Testament covenant is by faith, not law.

Rom.11:6...….
“And if by grace then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. but if it is by works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

It is either one or the other it can't be both, these are two different covenants.
If you choose to be under one then you are removed from the other.

Rom. 6:14-15...……
“...…..For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.”

How can the law be used to prevent sin, to not let sin have mastery over you? It can’t.

When people today insist that we must keep the laws of the Old Testament covenant they are removing themselves from the covenant of grace and are not under the headship of Christ but are under Moses.

The New Testament makes it clear in Jn.1:17:...….
“The Law came through Moses.” GRACE and TRUTH came through Jesus Christ".

Paul made it clear through his writings in Gal. 2:21...….
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Then Gal. Gal 2:19:...…….
"For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.”

In other words, Paul is saying the law is dead to him. We don't use what is dead to have life.

This is NOT BRAIN surgery my dear friend. It is right there in the black and white of God's Word and YOU either accept it as it is presented, or Ellen White has a stronger hold on you than does the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

I am actually perplexed at how normal people can come to accept the 7th Day theology.

So you are perplexed how it is that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith" etc could possibly all have known that the Sabbath Commandment - of Exodus 20... of the TEN Commandments could have applied to all mankind starting in Eden? Even though as pointed out - Christ speaks of the MAKING of both mankind and the Sabbath saying that the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind"??

This somehow escapes you??


You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to do that?

The REAL LIFE FACTS are that If you receive Christ as your Savior then the NEW Covenant take effect for you - and the "LAW" of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on heart and mind. Jer 31:31-33

Modern Adventists keep sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as the Sabbath,

True but for a few years from 1851 some Adventists urged that the Sabbath began at 6pm each day -- and then in 1855 they switched to the Lev 23 version - of sunset.

Of course before that they were almost all keeping week-day-1 in some fashion.

And of course ALL the Sunday groups listed freely admit that the Sabbath of the Bible is the 7th day Sabbath as given by God in the OT and that it applied (as do ALL the TEN) to all mankind. They only wish to "bend it" to point to week day 1 sometime later.


------

This somehow escapes you??

You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to miss that?

Are you simply ignoring the details??

NO.

Whew! That is a relief.

Honestly I was trying to use those words in a nice way to identify YOU.

So you think that stating what they agree was the case from Eden until Christ when it comes to the Sabbath -- "identifies me" alone?

Seriously??

Anyone who believes that we must keep any law to be saved or to stay saved is IMO teaching some kind of Religion which is not found in the Bible.

So that means you don't have Matthew 18, or 1 Cor 6 in your Bible??

The saints are specifically identified as those who "KEEP the Commandments of God" in Rev 14:12

The saints "Love God" and "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3.

Which as even your own sunday scholars in the group I have identified - agree with and that such findings in the Bible are not at all adverse to grace that is in the actual Bible.

Forget about keeping all 633 Laws.

Forget the 633 commands in the OT and the 1060 commands in the NT??

really??

 

[Major1]

So you are perplexed how it is that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith" etc could possibly all have known that the Sabbath Commandment - of Exodus 20... of the TEN Commandments could have applied to all mankind starting in Eden? Even though as pointed out - Christ speaks of the MAKING of both mankind and the Sabbath saying that the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind"??

This somehow escapes you??


You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to do that?

The REAL LIFE FACTS are that If you receive Christ as your Savior then the NEW Covenant take effect for you - and the "LAW" of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on heart and mind. Jer 31:31-33




True but for a few years from 1851 some Adventists urged that the Sabbath began at 6pm each day -- and then in 1855 they switched to the Lev 23 version - of sunset.

Of course before that they were almost all keeping week-day-1 in some fashion.

And of course ALL the Sunday groups listed freely admit that the Sabbath of the Bible is the 7th day Sabbath as given by God in the OT and that it applied (as do ALL the TEN) to all mankind. They only wish to "bend it" to point to week day 1 sometime later.


------

This somehow escapes you??

You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to miss that?

Are you simply ignoring the details??



Whew! That is a relief.



So you think that stating what they agree was the case from Eden until Christ when it comes to the Sabbath -- "identifies me" alone?

Seriously??



So that means you don't have Matthew 18, or 1 Cor 6 in your Bible??

The saints are specifically identified as those who "KEEP the Commandments of God" in Rev 14:12

The saints "Love God" and "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3.

Which as even your own sunday scholars in the group I have identified - agree with and that such findings in the Bible are not at all adverse to grace that is in the actual Bible.



Forget the 633 commands in the OT and the 1060 commands in the NT??

really??

This post looks a lot like #228. So then please read post #229 which answers your post and I will not have to type so much again.

I have responded to every single Bible verse you posted. Why do I need to do that again for you?

 

[Major1]

So you are perplexed how it is that C.H. Spurgeon, D.L. Moody, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith" etc could possibly all have known that the Sabbath Commandment - of Exodus 20... of the TEN Commandments could have applied to all mankind starting in Eden? Even though as pointed out - Christ speaks of the MAKING of both mankind and the Sabbath saying that the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind"??

This somehow escapes you??


You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to do that?

The REAL LIFE FACTS are that If you receive Christ as your Savior then the NEW Covenant take effect for you - and the "LAW" of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on heart and mind. Jer 31:31-33




True but for a few years from 1851 some Adventists urged that the Sabbath began at 6pm each day -- and then in 1855 they switched to the Lev 23 version - of sunset.

Of course before that they were almost all keeping week-day-1 in some fashion.

And of course ALL the Sunday groups listed freely admit that the Sabbath of the Bible is the 7th day Sabbath as given by God in the OT and that it applied (as do ALL the TEN) to all mankind. They only wish to "bend it" to point to week day 1 sometime later.


------

This somehow escapes you??

You are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the conversation the fact that all the Bible texts AND even BOTH sides of the debate agree on this key detail. How do you manage to miss that?

Are you simply ignoring the details??



Whew! That is a relief.



So you think that stating what they agree was the case from Eden until Christ when it comes to the Sabbath -- "identifies me" alone?

Seriously??



So that means you don't have Matthew 18, or 1 Cor 6 in your Bible??

The saints are specifically identified as those who "KEEP the Commandments of God" in Rev 14:12

The saints "Love God" and "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3.

Which as even your own sunday scholars in the group I have identified - agree with and that such findings in the Bible are not at all adverse to grace that is in the actual Bible.



Forget the 633 commands in the OT and the 1060 commands in the NT??

really??

YOu said...………..
"Forget the 633 commands in the OT and the 1060 commands in the NT??

really?? "

YES, because God said in Rom. 7:6:.....
“But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”

Gal. 5:4...……….
The Christian who seeks to keep the law to be justified or sanctified has fallen from grace.

Acts 2:42 states that the early Church followed not Old Testament rules but “the Apostles’ doctrine.”

Rom 8:3-6 ………….
“For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” It is the Spirit inside the believer that we are to obey to walk according to Jesus.

1 Cor. 15:57 …………….
“the strength of sin is the law.” But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Gal 2:16...…….
"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

So is a Christian under law? No, but there are commands we are to obey that are strictly found for the Church in the New Testament, so we are not without law, just not under the Old Covenant law.

 

[BobRyan]

This post looks a lot like #228. So then please read post #229 which answers your post

Post 229 ignores every text raised in #228 and ignores the fact that your own Sunday scholars point out the errors in your line of argument so far.

 

[Major1]

Post 229 ignores every text raised in #228 and ignores the fact that your own Sunday scholars point out the errors in your line of argument so far.

As I said......every single one of those texts have been responded to at least 3 times. Why do you need them answered again???????

And again, I do not care what anyone says my dear friend. It can be Ellen White or Mr. Miller or Billy Graham or the Pope. IMO the only thing that tells me the truth is the Word of God.

 

[Major1]

Post 229 ignores every text raised in #228 and ignores the fact that your own Sunday scholars point out the errors in your line of argument so far.

As much as I enjoy reading your same old comments over and over and the same old questions over and over, my wife has just informed me that I will get off of this computer, wash the dog, Daisey, and take her to dinner.

So then...…...bye!

 

[BobRyan]

It was a standard they were to live by. It was given for the reason- to increase sin and show us that we are sinful.

I TELL YOU AGAIN THAT the law is given to increase sin to show our sinfulness.

For the lost.

For the born again saints - under the NEW Covenant that Law is "written on the heart" Hebrew 8:6-12 that LAW includes the one where the "fifth commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

The very thing you claim cannot be true.... is true.

read the book.


And for the lost we have ---

Rom. 5:20:...……
“Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.”

Gal 3:19: ………..
“What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions,

And what about the saved? For the lost person that finally "comes to faith" in Christ - they are born again - and the LAW written on the heart.

Gal 3
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
”

In other words when FAITH comes to the lost person and they are born-again they are no longer under the condemnation -- when FAITH comes to them they are no longer under the condemnation of the law that is directed toward a lost person.

I in all honesty can not understand how this is so difficult that you can not understand it.

Even your own pro-sunday scholars admit to these obvious Bible details.

As much as I enjoy reading your same old comments over and over and the same old questions over and over, my wife has just informed me that I will get off of this computer, wash the dog, Daisey, and take her to dinner.

So then...…...bye!

oh the details...

 

[BobRyan]

And again, I do not care what anyone says my dear friend. It can be Ellen White or Mr. Miller or Billy Graham what anyone says my dear friend. It can be Ellen White or Mr. Miller or Billy Graham or the Pope. ...

or the Bible or C.H. Spurgeon, or D.L. Moody or all of your own pro-sunday scholars and the Bible texts with them.

Here's an idea -- accept the easy part of the Bible that is so obvious and clear - - that both sides freely admit to it.

 

[CaspianSails]

Ellen White's Sabbath and Eden: Brief Quotes




"Like the Sabbath, the week originated at creation, and it has been preserved and brought down to us through Bible history."

Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Introduction: Chapter 9: The Literal Week
(Kindle Location 1866-8)



"The Sabbath is not introduced as a new institution but as having been founded at creation."

Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Introduction: Chapter 27: The Law Given to Israel
(Kindle Location 4899-4900)



"The Sabbath institution, which originated in Eden, is as old as the world itself. It was observed by all the patriarchs, from creation down."

Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Introduction: Chapter 29: Satan's Enmity Against the Law
(Kindle Location 5379)



[Chapter]29. The Sabbath


"The Sabbath was hallowed at the creation. As ordained for man, it had its origin when “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” Job 38:7."

Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Book III: The Desire of Ages, Chapter 29: The Sabbath
(Kindle Location 23709-12)



"The Sabbath was not for Israel merely, but for the world. It had been made known to man in Eden, and, like the other precepts of the Decalogue, it is of imperishable obligation."

Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Book III: The Desire of Ages, Chapter 29: The Sabbath
(Kindle Location 23741-42)



"It was to keep this truth ever before the minds of men, that God instituted the Sabbath in Eden; and so long as the fact that He is our Creator continues to be a reason why we should worship Him, so long the Sabbath will continue as its sign and memorial."

Ellen White, Conflict of the Ages, Book V: The Great Controversy, Chapter 25: God's Law Immutable
(Kindle Location 45146-47)

I will state this quite simply, the Gnostic teachings of Ellen White are heretical. There I said it. I have nothing further to say on this.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who go to church on Saturday, or advocate Sabbath observance, often say that God ordained the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. It is assumed that Christians are obligated to obey the Ten Commandments, although no verse in the New Testament that exactly says so. The Ten Commandments were specifically given to the Jews, to Israel.

Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists....

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

I will state this quite simply, the Gnostic teachings of Ellen White are heretical. There I said it. I have nothing further to say on this.

There is no "challenge" here to 'make stuff up'. Maybe you thought you were on another thread.

 

[mmksparbud]

I will state this quite simply, the Gnostic teachings of Ellen White are heretical. There I said it. I have nothing further to say on this.

This whole argument will be null and void if you could just point to the verse that says---you can enter heaven while you are an unrepentant sinner. Simple.
The law--none of the 10, will make you "eligible" to enter heaven. You are saved by grace period. Just please find the verse or verses that say you can unrepentantly break His law and still enter heaven. Should not be difficult for you.