Ellen White vs. the Bible--A Test Case--Married Sexual Practice

tall73

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"frequently" is not the same as "excessively"

"frequently" could be a few times a week, while "excessively" could be a few times a day

Listen, I just want a simple yes or no answer from you. Do you believe couples should practice temperance with sex in marriage?


If they were not distracted from other tasks or spiritual life, what difference would it make if they had sex three times a day?

The Bible nowhere calls it a sin. If they were distracted from other tasks or spiritual life then yes, it would be a problem.



That's fine, but it doesn't negate the validity of my thought.

It does though.

She was not just responding to what she considered were a few folks having sex constantly. She was responding to the majority of people and saying that they were having sex too much, because it was over the amount she endorsed and some health reformers endorsed.

Can you provide solid proof that age didn't play a role in anything she said on this matter? If not, how can you be so sure age had nothing to do with anything she said on the subject?


Can you provide solid proof it did? She doesn't mention it. And the statement is in line with her other ones on the subject, that she thinks vital force is depleted and some should not deplete anymore.

It is also in line with the other quotes from the book they put out.

I have answered your questions as best as I could with the limited information available to me.

You have the same information out there as the rest of us, and I have linked you to it in some cases.

But for several posts there I would ask questions and you simply didn't address them at all but just asked another question.
 
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tall73

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This I made into its own post because it is a critical point:

I asked:

tall73 said:
Why would the Whites put out a book saying as often as the moon quarters if they did not agree with that?

You responded

Could it be possible they were not aware of it? Do you think they sat down and read everything, page by page, that was published through their publishing company? But let's suppose they were aware of it, that would simply mean they agreed with an extreme position, that they made a mistake.



I don't think you have understood the situation. Have you read the material linked to?

James White was the EDITOR and COMPILER of the book in question. The book prominently featured Ellen's comments, along side "experts" of the day that reinforced the thought. The Whites selected the content, not just knew of it. That is why it is important for understanding their view. The book itself was published to broadcast their view with what they thought was support from experts.
 
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tall73

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People make mistakes. I don't know why you feel the need to keep emphasizing this mistake. Why can't you simply admit that even when it comes to sex in marriage, temperance is good, and simply agree that the manner that this issue was dealt with was impractical, and even extreme.

It seems to me that all you want to do is focus on what was extreme, while not showing any compassion towards a person who made a mistake in judgment.

When someone dictates the lifestyle of Millions, and states they are a profit then it is more than a mistake in judgment.


By the way, which is worse, telling people not to have marital sex excessively, or telling them to marry in order to suffice their need to have sex?

"I say therefore to the unmarried and the widows, It is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9 MKJV)
This, like his other advice, is good advice to keep them from sin. If a person is not capable of single life, marriage is a better option.


Ellen White's advice goes against the prescription given to married people, which could lead them into temptation.


This counsel that Paul gave, was it given to him directly from God, or was it based on his own judgment?
Seeing as how to have sex outside of marriage is a violation of God's command, his advice is good. I assume it is from God, as he says the following:

1Co 7:40 Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

Even in the instance when some say he is giving his own view in the chapter, what he is doing is to distinguish between his command to them and the command of Jesus when He was here:


1Co 7:10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband

1Co 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.

He is noting when he has a direct command from Jesus, such as that he referenced in Matt. 19, saying not to separate from one's husband.


You could try to maneuver around it all you want, but it is what it is. Paul encouraged people to remain as he was (unmarried), but encouraged those who had lack of self-control to marry in order to suffice their need for sex.

That's not to say Paul devalued the sanctity of marriage. I'm simply pointing out that a statement like this could lead a person to believe Paul had a wrong concept of why people should marry. I'm sure if you could sit down with him and ask him about this, he would have a lot more to say, to clear the matter up for anyone who might be confused about his saying.
I haven't met too many who were confused about his saying except for you.

If you don't think you can live the single life, consider getting married.

Ability to handle sexual urges is one of the criteria for making that life decision.

His advice is accurate.

The advice of Ellen White for wives to divert their husband's mind from sex is against Paul's advice and against the Bible.

Don't you think the same could be said about Ellen White? Could it be possible that you are not fully understanding what she said, and her reasons for saying it? Perhaps if she were alive today, she would be able to clarify things, and you might end up having an entirely different opinion about her. It could also be possible that she would have admitted that she made a mistake in adopting an extreme view on the matter.
I think it is unlikely I am misunderstanding it. We have her statements, we have the statements of another pioneer in the Adventist health movement, Kellog, we have the book put out by the Whites where her statements are put alongside other statements that give the same idea.

What she said is quite comprehensible. So much so that my members asked me about it when I was a pastor because they got the message just fine--don't have sex very often.

The only reason it is even the least confusing to some is that it does not agree with their own notions about what excess is.

They want to make Ellen White not to be out of line with the Bible so they figure she meant don't have sex more than 3-4 times per week.

But her own statements rule this out.


It seems to me that you are looking for perfection in a fallible human-being. And unless you find perfection, you will continue to emphasize that person's mistakes.

I'm not trying to be Ellen White's apologist here; I'm simply trying to be a peacemaker. I hope that you would come to see that at some point.
It seems I am testing Ellen's claim, and the claim of the Adventist church to be a prophet, and whether she lines up with the Bible.

This topic is one which is easier to look at because there is not as much material either in the Bible or in Ellen White as there are on larger topics such as the sanctuary etc. which are usually debated.

Most people at a glance can read her statements, read the Bible statements, and get the difference.
 
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Lysimachus

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I'm going to repeat my earlier post.



"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." (1 Cor 9:24, 25)


"ALL THINGS" includes sexual intercourse between man and wife.


Titus 1:8 - "But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate."


Titus 2:2 - "That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience."


Gal 5:23 - "Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


2 Peter 1:5 - "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness."


While the prophets, such as Paul, provided a basic outline concerning things, the Lord gave Ellen White deep insight into the deep meaning of many of these passages, and her counsels are directly from the Lord.


Temperance in all things--and even husband's and wives who give way to sexual excess (meaning, overdoing it) are violating this principle, just like the individual who eats good food violates this principle by over-eating--which is called "gluttony".

Enough said.

No need to chop up these meanings and trying to stretch them and explain them away. They say exactly what they say.

All things means all things, including sexual interraction between husband and wife.

I'm not going to keep arguing this point tall73. I see no light in your posts.
 
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I'm going to repeat my earlier post.



"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." (1 Cor 9:24, 25)


"ALL THINGS" includes sexual intercourse between man and wife.


Titus 1:8 - "But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate."


Titus 2:2 - "That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience."


Gal 5:23 - "Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


2 Peter 1:5 - "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness."


While the prophets, such as Paul, provided a basic outline concerning things, the Lord gave Ellen White deep insight into the deep meaning of many of these passages, and her counsels are directly from the Lord.


Temperance in all things--and even husband's and wives who give way to sexual excess (meaning, overdoing it) are violating this principle, just like the individual who eats good food violates this principle by over-eating--which is called "gluttony".

Enough said.

No need to chop up these meanings and trying to stretch them and explain them away. They say exactly what they say.

All things means all things, including sexual interraction between husband and wife.

I'm not going to keep arguing this point tall73. I see no light in your posts.
I see no wisdom in yours.
 
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tall73

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I'm going to repeat my earlier post.



"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." (1 Cor 9:24, 25)


"ALL THINGS" includes sexual intercourse between man and wife.


Titus 1:8 - "But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate."


Titus 2:2 - "That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience."


Gal 5:23 - "Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


2 Peter 1:5 - "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness."


While the prophets, such as Paul, provided a basic outline concerning things, the Lord gave Ellen White deep insight into the deep meaning of many of these passages, and her counsels are directly from the Lord.


Temperance in all things--and even husband's and wives who give way to sexual excess (meaning, overdoing it) are violating this principle, just like the individual who eats good food violates this principle by over-eating--which is called "gluttony".

Enough said.

No need to chop up these meanings and trying to stretch them and explain them away. They say exactly what they say.

All things means all things, including sexual interraction between husband and wife.

I'm not going to keep arguing this point tall73. I see no light in your posts.

Thanks for bumping the thread :)

You never did back up your statement that Ellen White was fine with sex 3-4 times per week. And the sources put out by the Whites, as well as her statements on vital force depletion shows your view is simply not what she believed.

She encouraged wives to distract their husbands. Paul encouraged both parties to meet the needs of the others.
 
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tall73

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"ALL THINGS" includes sexual intercourse between man and wife.


Would all things include just a little theft? Just a little wine? Just a little idol worship? Just a little Godliness?

Clearly all things has a certain understood range.

And Paul never indicated that marital sex was harmful or wrong. He stated that couples should have regular sex except for agreed upon times for prayer.


Now you indicated 3-4 times per week is fine. But that is not what the Whites were putting out there for folks. In the book James put out the quotes along with those of his wife was saying sex as often as the moon quarters was quite dangerous.

If you really want to go with temperance, you need to go with what they were promoting, not your own notions.
 
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TruthWave7

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I see no wisdom in yours.

Why don't you simply respond to the Scriptures that he posted? Do you not understand what they clearly say regarding temperance? Do you believe in temperance, or was that done away at the cross along with all of the OT?
 
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tall73

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Why don't you simply respond to the Scriptures that he posted? Do you not understand what they clearly say regarding temperance? Do you believe in temperance, or was that done away at the cross along with all of the OT?

Thanks to you for bumping also :)

Because I already responded to it earlier in posts 138 and 139. You are a bit late to the discussion, and perhaps did not actually read it. He mentioned it was a re-post of his former post.

Temperance is fine.

However, when Paul lays out that couples should not withhold from one another except for short times for prayer that gives guidance as to what one should do.


Now Lysimachus on the other hand introduced a view of temperance that he never supported at all from Ellen White's writings and rejected the evidence from Ellen and James and other Adventists writings at the time as to what they considered evidence. Lysimachus introduced the idea that 3 to 4 times per week was fine.

But he never gave any evidence at all for that being Ellen White's view.
 
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Lysimachus

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Thanks for bumping the thread :)

You never did back up your statement that Ellen White was fine with sex 3-4 times per week. And the sources put out by the Whites, as well as her statements on vital force depletion shows your view is simply not what she believed.

She encouraged wives to distract their husbands. Paul encouraged both parties to meet the needs of the others.

She never indicated how often, at all.

So it is impossible to prove, either way. She was silent on that matter.
 
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tall73

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She never indicated how often, at all.

So it is impossible to prove, either way. She was silent on that matter.


Then why would you speculate 3-4 times per week?

However, I think it is safe to say that someone reading I Cor which encourages not to withhold but for short times for prayer and encourages both parties to meet the needs of the other would probably have sex more often with their spouse than someone who reads that sex is animal, a waste of vital force, that you are accountable for every expenditure, and that the wife is to distract or outright refuse the husband.


But you are still ducking the other evidence. I will revisit it all in the thread shortly to sum it up in a more organized fashion. For now however, why don't you answer the question you have been avoiding.

Why would Ellen White allow James to publish and promote a book that puts her writings with a bunch of authorities that speak on the same topic if she didn't agree with those authorities?

You argued in the Adventist section that she, when still alive, oversaw how her writings were used.

The sources James quotes do specify.

So are you saying she let James spread false notions about her beliefs?
 
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Humble Pie

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Let the Christian wife refrain, both in word and act, from exciting the animal passions of her husband. Many have no strength at all to waste in this direction. They have already, from their youth up, weakened their brains, and sapped their constitutions, by the gratification of their animal passions.

I like some SDA stuff but I suspect their prophet was making excuses to avoid intimacy. This is the sort of SDA stuff that erks me.
 
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tall73

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Or it could simply be that people are making her say more than what she was actually saying.


Nah, her own quotes say sex is animal, a waste of vital force, that you are accountable for every expenditure, and that the wife is to distract or outright refuse the husband.
 
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Stryder06

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Nah, her own quotes say sex is animal, a waste of vital force, that you are accountable for every expenditure, and that the wife is to distract or outright refuse the husband.

Baser passions, indulgence, etc. I read it. And that the wife should curtail her husband, what's wrong with that? Of course it would seem like the two of us may see temperance in this issue differently.

Again, how you're reading what she wrote, and what she was trying to express, during her time, are two separate things. I'm pretty sure if she said that a wife and husband ought to ravish themselves in sex you'd say she was being intemperate in this issue.
 
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Cribstyl

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Baser passions, indulgence, etc. I read it. And that the wife should curtail her husband, what's wrong with that? Of course it would seem like the two of us may see temperance in this issue differently.

Again, how you're reading what she wrote, and what she was trying to express, during her time, are two separate things. I'm pretty sure if she said that a wife and husband ought to ravish themselves in sex you'd say she was being intemperate in this issue.
If she said it, she contradicting what the bible teaches.
The bible says when your mate desires you, make yourself available to them. You belong to them, and they belong to you.
It does not say to woman: control the man passions or to the man control the woman passions.

1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.


We make God's word of no effect when we elevate commentary to replace the word of God.
 
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Stryder06

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If she said it, she contradicting what the bible teaches.
The bible says when your mate desires you, make yourself available to them. You belong to them, and they belong to you.
It does not say to woman: control the man passions or to the man control the woman passions.

1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.


We make God's word of no effect when we elevate commentary to replace the word of God.

Again, we're talking about being temperate. So if your mate wants your 3x a day you ought to make yourself available? What if the wife simply doesn't feel like it. Is she sinning by not giving in to her husband?
 
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