Ellen White vs. the Bible--A Test Case--Married Sexual Practice

[tall73]

Added slideshow to show most of the information in one place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0K0tvC9P9k




A scripture regarding marital sexual relations:

1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


Now compare with advice from Ellen White regarding sexual relations:


Let the Christian wife refrain, both in word and act, from exciting the animal passions of her husband. Many have no strength at all to waste in this direction. They have already, from their youth up, weakened their brains, and sapped their constitutions, by the gratification of their animal passions. Self-denial and temperance should be the watch-word in married life; then, when children are born to parents, they will not be so liable to have the moral and intellectual organs weak, and the animal strong.




First please notice that Paul states that both parties to the marriage have sexual rights so to speak and that each should meet the needs of the other.

To keep back sex in marriage is seen as "depriving" and a lack of self control.

Paul encourages regular sexual relations as a safeguard against temptation outside the marriage. To not do so is to court Satan's temptation according to Paul. The exception is when by agreement for a limited time the couple devotes themselves to prayer. Both the man and the wife have rights to marital relations.

Ellen White's advice is far different.

Wives should refrain from any word or act that might excite their husband. Some have no vital force at all for sex and should just not have it, as it would "waste" vital force.

These two statements are strikingly different. In Ellen White's model you have the Christian wife intentionally going out of her way to avoid the natural attraction that her husband has to her. In Paul's advice both are encouraged to supply the natural needs of the other so that they do not look elsewhere.

 

[tall73]

More advice from Ellen White on married sexuality

Very few feel it to be a religious duty to govern their passions. They have united themselves in marriage to the object of their choice, and therefore reason that marriage sanctifies the indulgence of the baser passions. Even men and women professing godliness give loose rein to their lustful passions, and have no thought that God holds them accountable for the expenditure of vital energy, which weakens their hold on life and enervates the entire system. (Testimonies, Volume 4, p. 472)



Some men and women professing godliness debase their own bodies through the indulgence of the corrupt passions, which lowers them beneath the brute creation. They abuse the powers God has given them to be preserved in sanctification and honor. Health and life are sacrificed upon the altar of base passion. The higher, nobler powers are brought into subjection to the animal propensities. Those who thus sin are not acquainted with the result of their course. Could all see the amount of suffering they bring upon themselves by their own wrong and sinful indulgence, they would be alarmed. Some, at least, would shun the course of sin which brings such dreaded wages. A miserable existence is entailed upon so large a class that death to them would be preferable to life; and many do die prematurely, their lives being sacrificed in the inglorious work of excessive indulgence of the animal passions. Because they are married, they think they commit no sin. {SA 171.1}



More advice from the Bible on married sexuality

Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
Pro 5:19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

We find this scriptural advice in the middle of a section warning against going outside the marriage relation. Enjoying married sex is part of the safeguard against sex outside of marriage


Some people, when reading such words, have thought that Ellen White is using the term animal passions to indicate lust without love.

However, she clearly indicates that every indulgence reduces vital force. She thought that we had limited vital force that was expended on sex and therefore it was a “waste” of this vital force.

Moreover, she also refers to animal passions in another place indicating that it cannot refer to only loveless lust.


In vigorous physical exercise, the animal passions find a healthy outlet and are kept in proper bounds. Healthful exercise in the open air will strengthen the muscles, encourage a proper circulation of blood, help to preserve the body from disease, and will be a great help in spirituality

Ms 40, 1903, p. 11.
Released May 20, 1977. {8MR 26.2}

Can there be a healthy outlet for loveless lust? Can it be kept in proper bounds?

 

[tall73]

We have looked at someEllen White material on the subject. Now let's look at a contemporary Adventist health reformer to see how the term animal is used and to look for other similar uses of terms.

Here are some selections on marital excess by J.H. Kellog,from Plain Facts for Old and Young. It can be obtained from project Gutenberg.


As soon as they are wedded, intercourse is indulged in night after night, neither party having any idea that these repeated sexual acts are excesses which the system of neither can bear, and which to the man, at least, are absolute ruin. The practice is continued till health is impaired, sometimes permanently, and when a patient is at last obliged to seek medical advice, he is thunderstruck at learning that his sufferings arise from excesses unwittingly committed. Married people often appear to think that connection may be repeated as regularly and almost as often as their meals. Till they are told of the danger, the idea never enters their heads that they are guilty of great and almost criminal excess; nor is this to be wondered at, since the possibility of such a cause of disease is seldom hinted at by the medical man they consult." "Some go so far as to believe that indulgence may increase these powers, just as gymnastic exercises augment the force of the muscles. This is a popular error; and requires correction. Such patients should be told that the shock on the system each time connection is indulged in, is very powerful, and that the expenditure of seminal fluid must be particularly injurious to organs previously debilitated. It is by this and similar excesses that premature old age and complaints of the generative organs are brought on."



"Health does not absolutely require that there should ever be an emission of sperm, from puberty to death, though the individual live a hundred years; and the frequency of involuntary nocturnal emissions is an indubitable proof that the parts, at least, are suffering under a debility and morbid irritability utterly incompatible with the general welfare of the system."


It is but fair to say that there is a wide diversity of opinion among medical men on this subject. A very few hold that the sexual act should never be indulged except for the purpose of reproduction, and then only at periods when reproduction will be possible. Others, while equally opposed to the excesses, the effects of which have been described, limit indulgence to the number of months in the year.
Read, reflect, weigh well the matter, then fix upon a plan of action, and, if it be in accordance with the dictates of better judgment, do not swerve from it.
If the suggestion made near the outset of these remarks, in comparing the reproductive function in man and animals—viz., that the seasons of sexual approach should be governed by the inclination of the female—were conscientiously followed, it would undoubtedly do away with at least three-fourths of the excesses which have been under consideration. Before rejecting the hint so plainly offered by nature, let every man consider for a moment whether he has any other than purely selfish arguments to produce against it.


As with childhood, old age is a period in which the reproductive functions are quiescent unless unnaturally stimulated. Sexual life begins with puberty, and, in the female, ends at about the age of forty-five years, the period known as the menopause, or turn of life. At this period, according to the plainest indications of nature, all functional activity should cease. If this law is disregarded, disease, premature decay, possibly local degenerations, will be sure to result. Nature cannot be abused with impunity. The generative power of the male is retained somewhat longer than that of the female, and by stimulation may be indulged at quite an advanced age, but only at the expense of shortening life, and running the risk of sudden death. Says Parise, "One of the most important pieces of information which a man in years can attain is 'to learn to become old betimes,' if he wishes to attain old age. Cicero, we are told, was asked if he still indulged in the pleasures of love. 'Heaven forbid,' replied he, 'I have forsworn it as I would a savage and a furious master.'"
Some learned physicians place the proper limit of man's functional activity at fifty years, if he would not render himself guilty of shortening his days by sensuality.


Notice the use of the term animal:

It is an established physiological fact that the character of offspring is influenced by the mental as well as the physical conditions of the parents at the moment of the performance of the generative act. In view of this fact, how many parents can regard the precocious—or even mature—manifestations of sexual depravity in their children without painful smitings of conscience at seeing the legitimate results of their own sensuality? By debasing the reproductive function to an act of selfish animal indulgence, they imprinted upon their children an almost irresistible tendency to vice. Viewing the matter from this stand-point, what wonder that licentiousness is rife! that true chastity is among the rarest of virtues!


Note that in some of the quotes he is referencing other authorities. I have tried to include the parts that mention this.


Ellen White was close to Kellogg and he was one of the leaders in Adventist health reform until he left the church.


He seems to favor sex 12 times a year or less based on the authorities he quotes.

Notice the similar use of terms as well.

Ellen White was in tune with "health" reformers of her day on this topic. But her advice does not match that of the Bible regarding married sex.

 

[tall73]

By the way, much of the Adventist health message at the time was an anti-lust and masturbation regime.

Notice the connection to animal passions and Adventist health practices in this quote:



The exciting influence upon the genital organs of such articles as pepper, mustard, ginger, spices, truffles, wine, and all alcoholic drinks, is well known. Tea and coffee directly excite the animal passions through their influence upon the nerve centers controlling the sexual organs.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

http://www.christianforums.com/f569/

http://www.christianforums.com/t7320308/
Exposing Adventism - Ellen White on the Seal of God

Ellen G. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ellen Gould White (born Harmon) (November 26, 1827 – July 16, 1915) was an American Christian pioneer whose ministry was instrumental in founding the Sabbatarian Adventist movement that led to the rise of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Our animal natures are original to nature created by God. I do not think there is anything like "lust" between a husband and wife. The word lust means to desire that which is forbidden. How is a husband's or a wife's desire for sexual gratification from their spouse "lust"?

Its embarrassing to see Ellen White's private thinking divulging her own twisted nature flapped out by her in public and imortalized in her writings.

Yuck!

Her poor husband!

 

[laconicstudent]

Our animal natures are original to nature. I do not think there is anything like "lust" between a husband and wife. The word lust means to desire that which is forbidden. How is a husband's or a wife's desire for sexual gratification from their spouse "lust"?

Its embarrassing to see Ellen White's private thinking divulging her own twisted nature flapped out by her in public and imortalized in her writings.

Yuck!

Her poor husband!

I would have to agree.

 

[Stryder06]

All things in moderation...

From what I can tell, it looks like Ellen is simply saying that to overdue it with sex is a sin. If you find that problematic than that's on you. It doesn't mean she's going against what the bible says.

But hey, I'm certain everyone will see what they want. The more "ammo" you can get against ellen the better right?

 

[JamesAH]

All things in moderation...

From what I can tell, it looks like Ellen is simply saying that to overdue it with sex is a sin. If you find that problematic than that's on you. It doesn't mean she's going against what the bible says.

But hey, I'm certain everyone will see what they want. The more "ammo" you can get against ellen the better right?

 

[laconicstudent]

From what I can tell, it looks like Ellen is simply saying that to overdue it with sex is a sin. If you find that problematic than that's on you. It doesn't mean she's going against what the bible says.

12 times a year isn't moderation

 

[Pythons]

It's possible that Ellen's directive to the faithful would allow additional meditation time...
...To contemplate the in's and out's of the base crime of inappropriate behavior with animals.

But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was "the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast" which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere." -Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p. 64, 1864

Every species of animal which God had created, were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the endless varieties of species of animals and certain races of men."- Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p.75, 1864

Certain races of "men", which God did not create, were stated to exist in 1864...
...The actual mechanics of these beastly races of men was resulantant from inappropriate behavior with animals in which it was believed Great Apes bred wanton human females.

The hottentots of the cape area were believed to be the result of male Orangutan on black female intercourse...
...This belief is well documented and can also be confirmed by looking up "Hottentot Venus"...

To be fair to Ellen most of the people of her day accepted this as a fact of life and it's very possible she associated the fruit of inappropriate behavior with animals with the animal like lusts at times experienced in a relationship.

For absolute confirmation on Ellen's teaching that Great Apes bred human females resulting in "confused species" which God did not create I point the interested in the direction of Gustav Jahoda's excellent book; Images of Savages.

It is possible that Ellen's teaching on married people ceasing to have sex was an attempt to dwell on the greatest sin the world has ever known, i.e. the creation of species of men that God Himself didn't create.

 

[Stryder06]

12 times a year isn't moderation

Didn't recall seeing anything about 12x a year in the posts quoted by tall.

 

[Stryder06]

Case in point.

 

[wannabeadesigirl]

When were those books written? One of 'em was 1903. I mean we have to remember that back then even the unreligious were anti sex. It was a bad time for copulation. It wasn't just adventist, it was everyone and their dog. You know couples in a society are not doing "it" enough to be healthy when women have to go to a doctor for release, and men use their wives for kids, and prostitutes for fun.

 

[SummaScriptura]

It's possible that Ellen's directive to the faithful would allow additional meditation time...
...To contemplate the in's and out's of the base crime of inappropriate behavior with animals.

Certain races of "men", which God did not create, were stated to exist in 1864...
...The actual mechanics of these beastly races of men was resulantant from inappropriate behavior with animals in which it was believed Great Apes bred wanton human females.

The hottentots of the cape area were believed to be the result of male Orangutan on black female intercourse...
...This belief is well documented and can also be confirmed by looking up "Hottentot Venus"...

To be fair to Ellen most of the people of her day accepted this as a fact of life and it's very possible she associated the fruit of inappropriate behavior with animals with the animal like lusts at times experienced in a relationship.

For absolute confirmation on Ellen's teaching that Great Apes bred human females resulting in "confused species" which God did not create I point the interested in the direction of Gustav Jahoda's excellent book; Images of Savages.

It is possible that Ellen's teaching on married people ceasing to have sex was an attempt to dwell on the greatest sin the world has ever known, i.e. the creation of species of men that God Himself didn't create.

Good Lord. If this is true, she was deeply twisted, but hey, twisted is the norm in my city.

This reminds me that there were two extremes to which the error of gnosticism drove men and women. There were the ascetics, but, perhaps less frequently there were those who felt that promiscuity was irrelevant and so proceeded.

I am not saying Ellen was a gnostic. I am saying erroneous ideas about theology can lead to both kinds of extremes, rampant promiscuity as well as the denial of one's humanity.

When we see asceticism of the kind in Ellen White's teaching we see evidence of doctrinal error at a deeper level as well as perhaps areas of healing that were needed in the teacher's life.

 

[Pythons]

Good Lord. If this is true, she was deeply twisted, but hey, twisted is the norm in my city.

This reminds me that there were two extremes to which the error of gnosticism drove men and women. There were the ascetics, but, perhaps less frequently there were those who felt that promiscuity was irrelevant and so proceeded.

I am not saying Ellen was a gnostic. I am saying erroneous ideas about theology can lead to both kinds of extremes, rampant promiscuity as well as the denial of one's humanity.

When we see asceticism of the kind in Ellen White's teaching we see evidence of doctrinal error at a deeper level as well as perhaps areas of healing that were needed in the teacher's life.

Unfortunately both are true in that Ellen White taught or rather "confirmed" the common understanding in her day that Great Apes could breed with humans and produce "fruit". These "certain races of men" were not the result of God's action in creation but twisted creation of man's own creation.

It was around the same time that Ellen taught that God would hold the actual slave guiltless ( in the great Judgment ) and allow them to be as if they had never been born. The slave masters would be harshly judged by God for not treating these man-animals with kindness.

God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master' brute beasts. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been

Those who profess to love God do not always consider that abuse to animals, or suffering brought upon them by neglect, is a sin. The fruits of divine grace will be as truly revealed in men by the manner in which they treat their beasts, as by their service in the house of God. Those who allow themselves to become impatient or enraged with their animals are not Christians. A man who is harsh, severe and domineering toward the lower animals, because he has them in his power, is both a coward and a tyrant.

The intelligence displayed by many dumb animals approaches so closely to human intelligence that it is a mystery. The animals see and hear and love and fear and suffer. They use their organs far more faithfully than many human beings use theirs. They manifest sympathy and tenderness toward their companions in suffering. Many animals show an affection for those who have charge of them, far superior to the affection shown by some of the human race. They form attachments for man which are not broken without great suffering to them."
The Ministry of Healing, pgs. 315, 316

I am forced to agree with Tall that Ellen's teaching whereas married people are concerned is in direct violation of Scripture. I only posted this as a valid reason why Ellen was so against sex between married people.

 

[Pythons]

Just found the Scripture I was looking for.

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

honourable [is] the marriage in all, and the bed undefiled, and whoremongers and adulterers God shall judge.

Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled. For fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

12 times a year isn't moderation

Back in my "prime", I would do that many in a week! [before and after marriage]

 

[tall73]

All things in moderation...

From what I can tell, it looks like Ellen is simply saying that to overdue it with sex is a sin. If you find that problematic than that's on you. It doesn't mean she's going against what the bible says.

But hey, I'm certain everyone will see what they want. The more "ammo" you can get against ellen the better right?

Stryder, there is more to it than moderation.

Can you explain for instance what vital force is?

Can you explain why some should not "waste" any vital force on sex with their spouse?

Can you explain why Paul say the man and wife both are entitled to expect sex from the other spouse but Ellen White says that the wife should refrain from exciting the man?

Why didn't Paul warn about excess passion in marriage? Why didn't Paul warn about expenditure of vital force?

 

[tall73]

Didn't recall seeing anything about 12x a year in the posts quoted by tall.

Actually the 12 times per year is in the section from Kellogg, a former Adventist health reformer.

I quoted Kellogg because

a. he was a leading Adventist health reformer
b. he was close to Ellen White during that time period and supported her views.
c. To show how they both used terms similarly.
d. Because he quotes other sources from the 1800's and it shows Ellen White is in line with the thinking of her day on Victorian attitudes to married sex.