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Featured Ellen White on Masturbation Make her a False Prophet

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Christ is Lord, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    The Church was not created at Nicea. The Church existed before Nicea. And the reason you "do not know if Ignatius was a good guy or not" is because you've never studied Church history. Someone has told you something having no foundation in fact and you believed it. For example, you seem to believe that the Council of Nicea introduced something new to the Church when it did not. The bishops present at Nicea were bishops long before Nicea. And when they gathered it was with the full authority of Jesus Christ, see Matthew 18:20.
     
  2. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not have a problem with Ellen White's warning; whether it was a warning for herself or whether she was required to pass it on, I do not know, I am only required to test the message it self. She could have misinterpreted the vision, Daniel required Gabriel to interpret his visions. You call the message false which is your opinion which is different to my opinion; if the matter is not disputable it is certainly disputed.

    Regarding he 1844 event; maybe Ellen got the message confused and heard what she wanted to hear instead of what was said. The error of 1844 was not Ellen White's; she was merely a young woman in the crowd; the confusion was over what the "cleansing of the Sanctuary" meant; I believe this is still an unsolved problem. You seem to be misquoting Ellen White; what was the rejected false message that caused the door to be closed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  3. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In the beginning there were two churches, the Jerusalem church and the Pauline church; there was an evolution to Nicaea. At Nicaea Rome took control of the Church; at this time the Jerusalem church is extinct or hiding in the wilderness. In 590 or around then the Roman Church and the Roman State formed into one entity, until Napoleon separated them. The doctrine of the Trinity was formed under the chair of the Roman Governor at Nicaea.
     
  4. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    In the beginning there were not two Churches. If there were two Churches there would be some reason to believe that. And no, Rome did not take control of the Church at Nicea. After Nicea the bishops went home to their own Churches and things continued on the way they had been in the past, only Christianity had become legalized.

    There never was any "secret church" hiding out anywhere. If there had been some church hidden from history all this time everyone making that claim would then have to explain how they met that church to be baptized into it.
     
  5. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your argument is based on assumptions I wouldn't hold.

    Revelation 12:6 (NKJV)
    6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    Revelation 12:14 (NKJV)
    14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

    This is God's church hiding in the wilderness, and most commentators use the day for a year principle giving 1260 years in the wilderness (wilderness being symbolic). The Spanish Inquisition began in 1478; subtracting 1260 gives 218 as the year the Jerusalem church fled Roman persecution. The churches that remained did not keep the Sabbath so as to not be mistaken for Jews.

    Regarding the Eastern Orthodox Church, did it exist before the schism in 1054 and at what point did it become under the control of Rome, if not during the third centuary?
     
  6. Concord1968

    Concord1968 LCMS Lutheran

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    Do you dispute the doctrine of the Trinity?
     
  7. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wouldn't use those words. The doctrine of the Trinity is a doctrine of men and I avoid all such doctrines. Once I was accused of not being a Trinitarian; I was amazed, I had heard of the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit and the trinity means a set of three; that there was a doctrine of it surprised me, and when I examined it I found that early in it, it says, "the Trinity is such that no one can understand it", the doctrine went on to describe that which cannot be understood.

    I do not see any use, need or purpose for that doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The Trinity was written about by the ECF a few 100 years before Nicaea. The Roman governor, emperor actually, was Constantine. Why would Constantine force the Trinity on the church when he was an Arian. If Constantine was going to force anything on the church it would have been Arianism and we would all be JWs today.
    Further why would 300+ Christian bishops who had survived persecution by the Roman empire suddenly cave in to a Roman emperor at Nicaea. They had already faced torture and death.
     
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The word Catholic is derived from Greek καθ ολης/kath oles which literally means "according to the whole." It occurs in the NT six times.
    Luke 4:14
    (14) And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the [καθ ολης] region round about.

    Luke 8:39, Luke 23:5, Acts of the apostles 9:31, Acts of the apostles 9:42, Acts of the apostles 10:37
     
  10. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    "Time and times and half a time" equals three and a half years. The first woman of the Revelation is Mary who fled to Egypt to hide from Herod.

    But anyway, the Orthodox Church has never been controlled by Rome. That is the primary reason why the Eastern and Western Churches are in schism.

    Again, you need to study the history of the Church.
     
  11. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What I have heard in the distant past was that the Bishops had several differing points of view about God and Constantine forced them to have one view. The religion was Universalism where people could believe anything so long as they obeyed the authority of the boss; so all the religions under Rome were mixed together.

    You ask for an opinion; the reason the Bishops survived persecution was they had already caved in and were not keeping the Sabbath, else they would not have been there meeting with their persecutor.
     
  12. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    There was no church created at Nicaea, only truth defended against heresy. The council of Nicaea did not change the structure of the Church, nor its hierarchy, nor its worship. All that was different in the Church from before Nicaea to after Nicaea was that the false teaching of a certain presbyter named Arius was refuted and condemned.
     
  13. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What you have heard is ahistorical nonsense. Emperor Constantine himself was sympathetic to Arius' views, yet he bowed to and upheld the decisions of the council.
     
  14. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you remember post # 18:

    ""Hebrew "wisdom" literature is very complex and cannot be readily rendered in English or any non-Semitic language. There are at least 4 completely different levels of meaning.

    In the Hebrew scriptures, the first level of meaning is Peshat and deals with the plain meaning of the text. And it is ALWAYS correct as seen. In the SoS, the peshat is simply erotic poetry describing sex acts, primarily HER experience of it. So you can take it that what SoS describes sexually is ok. ""

    Revelation is written in Greek but it is Greek encoded Hebrew; all the symbolisms are Hebrew semantic.

    Revelation 12:1-17 (NKJV)
    1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
    2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
    3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
    4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
    5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
    6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
    7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
    8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
    9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
    13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
    14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
    15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
    16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    Mary and her story is the type but the woman is the church; who are the offspring who keep the commandments of God in verse 17 if it is not the church.

    Jesus said the church is His mother:

    Matthew 12:50 (NKJV)
    50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
     
  15. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    I am always confused by these statements. What do you mean it's a doctrine of men? If I say God is omnipresent is that a doctrine of man? The word is not found in scripture (if I recall correctly) however, we do see in scripture God being everywhere, hence using the word "omnipresent" to describe what is taught is scripture is not a doctrine of man. The same goes with the Trinity we see the concept of God being 3 in 1 that share the same substance. You even have the idea of this in the OT with the "two Yahweh figures".
     
  16. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    We can go on and on and on about the meaning of the Revelation and we'll get nowhere.

    Now, back to this idea of some "secret church" existing in hiding over the years. That is a myth. As I said before, anyone claiming to belong to the "secret church" would have to explain how they met anyone from the secret church. But the closest you'll come to that is the nonsensical rantings of James Milton Carroll and the like.
     
  17. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    These sort of things are not black and/or white. Doctrine is another word meaning teaching. If you are expressing an opinion then that is not a teaching. If you sat down and wrote a five page thesis and then began to teach it that would be a doctrine of men (implied is this teaching displaces or excludes certain teachings of God). Doctrines of men do not necessarily have to offend God, but they normally would.

    If we were to consider is God omnipresent, we would probably disagree on what that meant or where exactly God is or where He could be. There are places where God the father would not go; the abomination of desolation is where God has departed and is not present. God could be present anywhere if He had a purpose for being there, but God being everywhere is Pantheism, a ,Pagan doctrine. Saying negative things about the Trinity is against the Forum rules so I have to be careful.
    When I examine the info the Bible gives about God I go in a very different direction than the Trinity.
     
  18. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who do you think you are kidding, secret church is your nonsensical ranting not mine.
     
  19. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    You said above, "This is God's church hiding in the wilderness". If it is hiding, it is secret. Are you a member of that church in hiding?
     
  20. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    okay .... :amen:
     
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