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Featured Ellen White on Masturbation Make her a False Prophet

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Christ is Lord, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Masturbation may not always be sin; depending on who is doing it; but masturbation is essentially fornication, and fornicaters and liars and adulterers will not enter the kingdom of God. Our bodies are supposed to be Temples to the Lord.
     
  2. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can understand why SDA's have not engaged in this debate. Was Ellen White a prophet; anyone who stands on a soap box or posts on a forum is a prophet; so you and I are prophets. Was Ellen White a false prophet; is a false prophet always wrong or only wrong some of the time.

    Biblically a false prophet is one who opposes God; did Ellen White oppose God; no certainly not with intention or malice; do people oppose Ellen White with intention and malice, yes.

    What then is a true Biblical prophet; the prophets of old represented God on rare occasions, otherwise they had their own opinions and agenders; when they did represent God they were described as not making the stuff up, not interpreting the stuff from scripture but as actually receiving the message directly from God. We true followers of God should also be receiving info directly from God, whether we be Ellen white or not.

     
  3. Deade

    Deade Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    Ellen White made false prophecies. It only take one mistake to be a false prophet. If the shoe fits. You know the rest.
     
  4. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am not aware of a single prediction Ellen White has made let alone one that failed, maybe you could tell me.

    Ellen white was mainly an interpreter of scripture for her own group, but not an authority that couldn't be disagreed with; which means she was not of the order of the Biblical prophets; of which John the Baptist was the greatest, and the only thing John predicted was "The kingdom of God is at hand."

    The yardstick you seem to be using makes everyone who has ever lived a false prophet.
     
  5. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Like Solomon said, "there is nothing new under the sun", or more temporal, history (and prophesy) repeats it self.

    What was the Gospel Ellen White preached? And how is that different to what Jesus preached?

    consider this:

    Galatians 1:8-9 (NKJV)
    8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    It would seem that those who preached another Gospel to the one Paul Preached was James, Peter, John and others from the Jerusalem church.
     
  6. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    All of the apostles preached the same gospel. That is attested by the various Churches founded by them who hold to the same teachings even today.

    Ellen White was a fourth or fifth generation Protestant who went off on her own and claimed for herself the authority to define Christianity. Just like all the others. But in her case, there is one simple claim of the SDAs that proves the childishness of their teachings. They hold that all of the Protestants will unite with all of the Catholics in the United States and mandate that people go to church on Sunday. It demonstrates the ethnocentricity of the beliefs of the SDAs. If, for example, every last human being made it illegal to not go to church on Sunday in every single part of the United States, where would that leave the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church? It doesn't leave them anywhere because Ellen White had never heard of it and never knew it existed.

    Ellen White developed all of her teachings from within her own personal theological bubble.
     
  7. Deade

    Deade Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    ELLEN WHITE AND Failed Prophecies

    Mrs. White and her followers claim that she had the "spirit of prophecy" from December 1844, to the end of her life, August 1915, seventy-one years. During these long years she wrote over twenty volumes. All this time she claimed that the future was being revealed to her, and predicted what would happen. Here her claims can be examined and tested.

    God's prophets foretold definite things to occur; named persons and cities, and told what would happen to each. Joseph foretold the seven years of plenty and seven years of famine (Genesis 41); Samuel told Saul that the kingdom would be taken from him and given to another (1 Samuel 15:28); Isaiah named Cyrus two hundred years before he was born (Isaiah 44:28); Jeremiah foretold the fall of Babylon (Jeremiah 51); Jesus warned of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matthew 24). Scores of such cases could be given.

    But where are the fulfilled predictions of Mrs. White during her seventy-one years of prophesying? What definite events did she foretell to occur at definite times and to definite cites? Where are these prophecies? At first she did venture to foretell a few things definitely, but they all failed.

    After that she invariably put everything in general terms, not venturing to name definitely any persons or cities or places or time. She predicted different things all in general terms. Anyone could do that safely, without any prophetic gift. If she really had the spirit of prophecy, that should have been the outstanding feature of her books. Instead of this, her 'Testimonies' and other books are devoted almost wholly to personal matters, expositions of the Bible, and to practical subjects regarding Christian conduct and duty, the same as any intelligent religious teacher could write.

    Once in her early work she did venture to predict the curse of God upon a definite person, Moses Hull. In 1862 he was about to give up his faith in Adventism. Mrs. White wrote him thus: "If you proceed in the way you have started, misery and woe are before you. God's hand will arrest you in a manner that will not suit you. His wrath will not slumber." (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 430,431). Mr. Hull lived on many long years to a ripe old age, and nothing of the kind predicted happened. After this she threatened many, but always in general terms.

    Predictions about the Civil War

    The Civil War of 1861-65 placed Seventh-day Adventists in a trying position. They could not engage in war and keep the Sabbath. She says:

    "January 4, 1862, I was shown some things in regard to our nation." (Testimonies, Vol.1, p.253).

    "It is all a bitter denunciation of Lincoln 's administration and his management of the war. Every move had been wrong, and only defeat was prophesied. Mr. Lincoln, in his need, asked the prayers of all Christians, and appointed days of fasting and prayer. Of these Mrs. White said: 'I saw that these national fasts were an insult to Jehovah. A national fast is proclaimed! Oh, what an insult to Jehovah'!" (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p.257).

    That was the way she sympathized with Mr. Lincoln and the nation in the hour of need. Again, Mrs. White said: " This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. When England does declare war, all nations will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war." (Ibid, p.259).

    It never came. Here, again, her prophecy was a complete failure. Our nation was not humbled into the dust. England did not declare war.

    Mrs. White interpreted the Civil War as a sign of the end of the world, just as Adventists had interpreted the European war. She says:

    "The scenes of earth's history are fast closing." (Ibid, p.260).

    Under the heading, 'The Rebellion,' she says:

    "The one all-important inquiry which should now engross the mind of everyone is, Am I prepared for the day of God? Time will last a little longer." (p.363).

    Since then two generations have gone. Mrs. White, Elder White, and all who then preached and heard that warning, are laid away. They needed no such warning, for they did not live to see that day, as she then predicted. Failure, failure, failure is marked by ineradicable letters against all her predictions.

    During those dark days of the Civil War, Mrs. White privately warned our married people not to have any more children. Time was so short, and the seven last plagues were so soon to fall, that children born then would be liable to perish. But children born since then are now grandparents!


    MORE OF Ellen G. White's failed prophecies


    "I have seen that the 1843 chart (William Miller's) was directed by the hand of the Lord and that it should not be altered that the figures were as he wanted them." (Early Writings, p.64, edition 1882). (The chart mentioned predicted the end of the world in 1843).

    Ellen White loses the vision: "In our frequent change of location in the earlier history of the publishing work, and I have crossed the plains no less than 17 times, I lost all trace of the first published works. And here I pause to state that any of our people having in their possession a copy of any or all of my first views, as published prior to 1851, will do me a great favor if they will send them to me without delay." (Selected Messages, Book 1, p.60).

    E.G. White prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 and 1851: "Now time is almost finished, (1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." (Early Writings, p.57).

    "I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall (in 1844). They have been growing more and more corrupt. Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. Their professions, their prayers and their exhortations are an abomination in the sight of GOD." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol 1, p.189).

    White blames her failed prophecy on the members of the Seventh-day Adventist church: "Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history." (Selected Messages, Book 1, p.299).

    Concerning some of her revelations: "In one of her visions her accompanying angels told her that the time of salvation for all sinners ended in 1844. She now claims the door of mercy is still open. In another vision she discovered that women should wear short dresses with pants and she and her sister followers dressed this way for eight years. But the ridiculous custom has now been abandoned." (Biederwolf, Seventh-Day Adventism, p.81).

    She also affirms that her visits to heaven were easily made: After having left there during one of her visits an angel "handed me a green cord coiled up closely. This he directed me to place next to my heart, and when I wished to see Jesus, take from my bosom and stretch it to the utmost. He cautioned me not to let it remain coiled for any length of time lest it should become knotted and difficult to straighten."

    "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: Some food for worms, some subject to the last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." (Vol.1, p.131).

    NOTE: This statement was made in 1856 and everyone present in that meeting is now dead. Obviously, this was a false prophecy. Some SDA's, in trying to extricate themselves from the dilemma of this false statement, have argued that had God's people been faithful the Lord would have come long ago. But this excuse will not hold water, because God knew ahead of time what would happen. And Mrs. White made no conditions for the fulfillment of her prophecy. Her statement is plain and to the point.

    "Thousands have been induced to enlist with the understanding that this war to exterminate slavery, but now that they are fixed, they find that they have been deceived, that the object of this war is not to abolish slavery, but to preserve it." (Vol.1, pp.254,258).

    NOTE: We know now that the Civil War in the USA did indeed abolish slavery. Mrs. White was wrong.

    "Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters which gave us the day and hour of Jesus coming. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Spirit." (Vol.1, p.59).

    NOTE: In this reference Mrs. White claims that the Lord gave her the day and hour of His coming. In Matthew 24:36, Jesus said, " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my Father only." And, of course, we know today she was wrong because Jesus did not come when she expected Him.

    On pages 42-45 of Early Writings, Mrs. White describes a closing of a door in the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary , and an opening in the most holy place (in 1844), that the "midnight cry" was finished at the seventh month 1844 , (see p.43), that then was the "sealing time", and that the time for salvation for sinners had passed (p.45).

    All the above statements have been proven false by the fact that Christ did NOT return to earth in 1844. The " midnight cry" WAS NOT FINISHED IN 1844, FOR THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT HE DID THIS AT HIS ASCENSION (See Hebrews 6:19: 9:24). The time for the salvation of sinners did NOT pass in 1844. If it did WE ARE in great trouble (LOST) TODAY!

    Mrs. White taught that in the communion service the sisters should wash the feet of the brethren (Early Writings, p.117).

    NOTE: Now this is considered so out of order that even SDA's do not follow this instruction.
     
  8. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe white would have accepted Hull back had he repented, I believe she would have been wrong because I believe Hull blasphemed the Holy spirit.


    Moses Hull


    I believe you are taking some statements of white's out of the context of everything she had to say about Hull and implying a wrong meaning.

    I have a high regard for Ellen White but I don't have access to her writings; I believe some worship her in a similar manner that some worship Paul, and Mary, but your assault on her seems to be unjustified.



    “”"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: Some food for worms, some subject to the last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." (Vol.1, p.131).””


    You may know more about what she said on this subject, apart from this out of context statement, where as I do not, so I take it at it's face value and test it against scripture.

    Matthew 24:22 (NKJV)
    22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

    So the implication is some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.



    “”"Thousands have been induced to enlist with the understanding that this war to exterminate slavery, but now that they are fixed, they find that they have been deceived, that the object of this war is not to abolish slavery, but to preserve it." (Vol.1, pp.254,258).

    NOTE: We know now that the Civil War in the USA did indeed abolish slavery. Mrs. White was wrong.””


    Did Ellen White say what she believed the object of the ware was? I would expect the object of the war to be something else.



    “”"Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters which gave us the day and hour of Jesus coming. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Spirit." (Vol.1, p.59).

    NOTE: In this reference Mrs. White claims that the Lord gave her the day and hour of His coming. In Matthew 24:36, Jesus said, " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels in heaven, but my Father only." And, of course, we know today she was wrong because Jesus did not come when she expected Him.””



    I would like to know the context in which this statement is made; she made a law that dates of Christ return may not be predicted; did she specify the day and hour, if not the day may not have arrived yet.


    I personally believe the 1844 event was a complete balls up; yet it was a great awakening that shook the church.


    You seem to think Ellen White has to be right all the time; this is not how it was with the prophets of God of old; they worked for God part time; in their own time they had opinions and made statements that were often wrong.



    I am inclined to believe that the time of Christ's return, un-shortened, will be at the end of the six thousand year on the Jewish calendar, or six thousand years from Adam, which is around 250 to 300 years into the future; adding 2300 years mentioned in Daniel, to the time when Christ was cut off, bring us to the year 6000. If we subtract 1844 from 2300 we get 456 which is 34 years less than what was given to Israel in Daniel. Prophesy and history repeat themselves.

    Daniel 9:24 (NKJV)
    24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.


    Had Ellen White said the Law is abrogated, that would have made her a false prophet; there is a big difference between being mistaken and opposing God.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  9. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I disagree! The Gospels of Mat, Mk, Luke and John are the same in that their Gospels can be summarised as, "The kingdom of God is here, and there is still the option for people to enter in." The Gospel Paul preached was, "Jesus is great"; others have claimed Paul presents Christ as if He were a Roman God; at least Paul gives Christ the front seat in the Synagogue.

    As I understand, the Eastern Orthodox was a part of the Universal Church for 1050 years and the Universal Church had its beginning in the third century at the Council of Nicaea under a Roman Emperor.

    The churches stated by the original apostles kept the seventh day Sabbath; this can be shown by the church started by the apostle Thomas in India who kept the Sabbath up until the council of Trent; after that council and the defeat of the protestants, the Jesuits moved into India and changed India to Sunday keeping.

    As for the phobias of the SDA, history repeats it self; it took 400 years of Inquisitions to change Spain from Saturday to Sunday and the Roman Law was not that one must keep Sunday but rather one may not keep Saturday. Those keeping Saturday were charged with Judaism and put to death or tortured, all had the property confiscated.
     
  10. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    If the Universal Church did not begin until the Council of Nicea it would not have been known as the Universal Church long before Nicea. From the Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, 107 AD:

    "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church".
     
  11. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Made popular by everyones favourite, Dr John Kellogg of Kelloggs cornflakes. And when he wasn't doing that he was putting a wire through the intact boys. I'm sure he and Ellen were great friends, well until they disfellowshipped him in 1907.
     
  12. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your comments. It is true in one sense all of us are prophets. However, does anyone one of us claim to the things Ellen said of her writings?

    “When I went to Colorado I was so burdened for you that, in my weakness, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. Weak and trembling, I arose at three o’clock in the morning to write to you. God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision—the precious rays of light shining from the throne.”

    It’s one thing to have a mere opinion. Many biblical writers had opinions about certain things or made certain (“unscientific”) claims. But you won’t hear them making a statement like that Ellen said.

    From the post:

    Regardless of your view on masturbation, whether it’s a sinful practice or not, the fact remains that Ellen White claimed that God told her that masturbation causes diseases such as (cancerous humors) which contractions both common sense and modern medicine. Some would argue that Mrs White is no different from various biblical writers, when it comes to unscientific claims, but is she? The various “unscientific” claims in the Bible (for example, that the earth is supposedly flat) does not make scripture uninspired. Inspiration doesn’t involve God zapping you in the head and you begin writing every word that God dictates to you. Inspiration occurs providentially, God met the various writers in their own time, place and context and moved upon them to write. God was happy with the final result of their work but he doesn’t dictate and tell them how to write the various books we have in the Bible. The Bible never claims to teach advanced science and is not a science textbook, but is a theological work that gives truth about who God is and how we can be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, these truths surpass both culture and time. When reading the Bible we need to remember that these are ancient people that didn’t have the knowledge we have about the universe that we possess today. I would have no issue if Mrs White said she believed that masturbation caused those problems as merely her opinion or if she assumed it due to it being a common belief in her era. However, here you have a person that claims to be a speaker for God, that he gave her a vision that masturbation can cause blindness.
     
  13. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    The gospel that Ellen preached is the investigative judgment which is unbiblical.
     
  14. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    that is not he same thing. If Ellen makes a prediction that does not come true (especially if it’s not a conditional prophecy) then she is a false prophet. The Bible tell us that. Why? Because when they are making a prediction they are claiming God showed them (whether they genuinely believe God did is up for debate but ultimately doesn’t matter). If the prophecy doesn’t come true and it’s indeed from God that makes God no longer all knowing.
     
  15. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Well-Known Member

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    Was Ellen being a prophet on a part time basis when she claimed God showed her masturbation (at the very least) can cause or contribute to blindness?
    Or was she only a prophet on a part time basis when she said God told her that he would return in 7 years? Was she also a prophet when she claimed that God showed her that those that rejected the 1844 (false message btw) that God shut the door of salvation for them?


    See the pattern here? No one is saying a prophet can’t have human opinions but it’s another thing to claim God showed you in vision of something that is false. Unless you want to believe the shut door theory which she endorsed and said God showed her, her view that said that God showed her that the reason he hasn’t returned yet is because the Adventist aren’t ready (as if God acts on man’s time), or want to accept that false doctrines like the investigative judgment are correct then be my guest.
     
  16. Deade

    Deade Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    I believe the investigative judgment is just a way to confuse people. What has a cleansing in the sanctuary in heaven to do with people on earth? Why would God need to share that with us? They simply were trying to validate their mistake of when Christ would return.

    Other churches have spun off the Adventist movement of 1844. Until that time, most of Christendom didn't even believe of a physical, literal return of Christ to earth. Now most can't deny what the scripture says about it. They don't even try. The same can be said of many topics that we can scrutinize with our resources, today. We are finding our way back to God's true word long buried by the Roman Catholics. They, and also the Reform Protestants that accepted many Catholic doctrines.
     
  17. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ellen White is not a prophet to me, but I don't have a problem with anything I have heard of her saying; but for them who do be influenced by her, they have a greater knowledge of her than her mere claim that God spoke to her. All of us should be able to say God has spoken to us, but how sure can we be and what form does the communication take. The effects of masturbation would be statistical, a percentage will experience diminished eyesight, and a percentage will develop cancer. in the sixties I remember statistics involving nuns; 5% of them developed cancers of their sex/breading organs where as 30% of ordinary women developed those kind of cancer; I do not know if those statistics are true.

    My opinion is Ellen White should not be your concern as Paul is not my concern; Jesus is my concern.
     
  18. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The word "universal" from Latin, only became a word in the English language in the 15th century, but Catholic is of Greek origin and similar to universal, but catholic could mean, "beneficial to all men", among other things; the church created at Nicaea was the mixing of Pagan religions with Christian religion; here catholic meant "all embracing".

    I do not know if Ignatius was a good guy or not; that is did he keep Saturday or Sunday?
     
  19. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am surprised that you call "investigative judgement" a Gospel. I have never heard of that term before today; I would call it a doctrine of men.

    Here the SDA explain their position, they do not mention Ellen White.

    http://ssnet.org/blog/why-the-investigative-judgment-doctrine-is-sound/

    I would not have a bar of this doctrine, which depends on the teaching of men, not Ellen White.

    The Bible supports judgement for sure, investigative judgement seems to be a double positive.
     
  20. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If, in the administration of her church, Ellen White, said, "if you be bad the bogyman will get you," this is hardly a prophesy, really, false or other wise; God is not concerned with petty stuff. Had she said something that would cause her flock to sin and risk their salvation, that would make her the least in the kingdom; a false prophet is one who threatens the Kingdom of God, and the harvest.
     
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