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James-49

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I can see where most everyone is correct is some respect, but to me not in all respects - we all have a piece of the elephant. Here's my take:

Rev 10:10
"And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter."

The sweetness was the redemption, the salvation fulfilled - the bitter was the indefinite amount of time and distress until then

Rev 10:11
"And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."


Now on to how I understand the timelines:


Prior to and at the destruction of Jerusalem 70AD

Dan 9:26a
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood"
Dan 9:27a
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"
Mat 24:15
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"
Mar 13:14
"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains"
Luk 21:20
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
Rev 6:2-8
"And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
"And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
"And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
"And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.



Following the destruction of Jerusalem - Jews

Dan 9:26b
"and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
Dan 9:27b
"even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Dan 12:1a
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time"
Mat 24:21
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Mar 13:19
"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."
Luk 21:23b,24a
"for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations"

Rev 11:1
"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."
Rev 12:6
"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
Rev 12:7,15
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels"
"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."



Following the destruction of Jerusalem - Jews, also Gentiles

Luk 21:23b,24
"and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Rev 6:9-11
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Rev 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Rev 11:2-3
"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 14:6-10
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
"Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"

Rev 14:13
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."


The return of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him (some say rapture) - Jews, also Gentiles

Dan 12:1b,2,3
"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Mat 24:29-31
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mar 13:24-27
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
"And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luk 21:25-27
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Rev 6:12-17
"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? "

Rev 7:9-10
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
"And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Rev 14:16
"And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."


The final seven of the 70 sevens (weeks) - Jews

Rev 7:2-4"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Rev 8:7-13,9:1-21,11:14-15
Trumpets
Rev 14:19
"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
"And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Rev 16:1-15
Six bowls
Rev 16:16
"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."
Rev 16:17-21
Last bowl
Rev 19:11-17
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
"His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
"And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God"



Start of 1,000 year rule - one people (no more Jew or Gentile)

Rev 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
 
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tranquil

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There was an adjustment needed - the first 4 seals were prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

This is apparently a very exclusive forum. I suppose my posts are not part of that clique. But I do go to a lot of effort to share what I've studied.

I wouldn't call this an "exclusive forum", it's just not "inclusive" and/ or friendly. Yes, There are too many preterist shills, egotists, and jerks here, I agree (and I'm no better than they are).

The best you can hope for with this forum is to get something off your chest if God is leading you to share something. There are plenty of silent "lurkers' who obviously appreciate those who post their thoughts - many times, I am one of these people. It's just too time consuming to say anything I suppose. I wouldn't take it personally.

I look forward to more of your posts.
 
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James-49

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I wouldn't call this an "exclusive forum", it's just not "inclusive" and/ or friendly. Yes, There are too many preterist shills, egotists, and jerks here, I agree (and I'm no better than they are).

The best you can hope for with this forum is to get something off your chest if God is leading you to share something. There are plenty of silent "lurkers' who obviously appreciate those who post their thoughts - many times, I am one of these people. It's just too time consuming to say anything I suppose. I wouldn't take it personally.

I look forward to more of your posts.

What a gracious reply. Thank you.
 
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James-49

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I hope none of us are trying to take a "position" first and the meaning of a text second. Hopefully we will see when we are doing so and will be learning that that conflicts with the coherent message of the Word.

Taking a position seems to often involve incorporating an "ist" or an "ism". I don't take either. The danger with taking such a position is having a few pieces correct then spending countless hours trying to fit other pieces into that "ism" ... like a good "ist" would do.

If one must take a position - it's best to take one that can be tore down and rebuilt if needed. There is ALWAYS the chance a man will be in error at any point.
 
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James-49

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Agreed, but it is safe to say that Judaism "replaced" the Gospel's promises to Abraham, as Paul summarizes in Gal 3.

I wouldn't feel safe saying that.

Rom 11:18-21
"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."


Consider that prior to Christ's ascension our predecessors worshipped idols and images, and whatever else we could conjure up in our imaginations - while Israel knew the words of God. If anyone would have understood the arrival of Jesus it would have been the Jews - they were experts on God and we only had guesses. But..

Rom 11:7-8
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
" (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day."



It was an act of God that stopped Israel from understanding what they should have logically understood - given their level of education in the matters. And it was an act of God that we Gentiles have ended up understanding what we never studied.


That then begs the question:

Rom 11:1-5
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
"Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
"But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."



Rev 12:14
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
 
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James-49

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Rom 11 and Gal 3 are about very different periods. There is some overlap, but I'm confused why you avoided Gal 3.

I don't think I avoided it - I just don't think you provided anything to be avoided. I've done work in my posts to support what is said.

A short post leaving me to deduce the inference isn't a fair approach - I would appreciate more directness from you.
 
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Gal 3:18 is about what happened centuries before the Gospel. The Abrahamic promises were for the whole world, but when the Law came Judaism became Israel-centric. The width of the promises were lost. Paul even uses the terms set aside and void to describe how Judaism developed. This is what he is undoing in Gal 3 and elsewhere.

So it is not a matter of the church replacing Israel as the modern issue debates it; it always was a promised Gospel for all nations. (As a sub issue, there is one reader here who thinks that the "nations" were finally promised something at the end of all the Abrahamic promises, but the reverse is true). There is no plan B (Israel) that needs to be returned to in the plot of the Bible. What you have in the stormy sections of the NT is Israel realizing that the Abrahamic promises always were for all mankind who believe.
 
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James-49

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I agree that redemption of all man was always God's plan. However, Israel was God's chosen vessel for salvation to all of mankind. The dearness of Israel to God's heart is repeated throughout Scripture.

Christ came from within Israel - a Jew - to deliver that salvation to all man.

I'm not certain why you and I are discussing replacement theology, though, when I don't think my OP presents as supporting that. At least not with my purposed intent.

Here is what I see it as:

Jew + Gentile = New Man

The Jew has not been replaced by the New Man - the New Man is the final destination for all men.

The Gentile has achieved to that destination, as well as a portion of Jew - however there remains a large portion of Jew that did not attain because God stopped them.

In the final week of Israel, the remaining Jews reserved by God will be brought into the final destination with us Gentile/partial-Jews as the one new man.
 
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Interplanner

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I did look at the OP again. I'd need to know why the normal 490 year sequence has to be broken apart.

You have the Jew and Gentile as one, finally, in the Millenium. The unity is now in eph 2-3 and you may have unwittingly made another case for the millenium being the reign of Christ which is now.
 
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James-49

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I did look at the OP again. I'd need to know why the normal 490 year sequence has to be broken apart.

You have the Jew and Gentile as one, finally, in the Millenium. The unity is now in eph 2-3 and you may have unwittingly made another case for the millenium being the reign of Christ which is now.

It's not "the normal" 490 year sequence. It's "the only" 490 year (70 sevens) sequence and nowhere does it say consecutive. However, an indeterminate amount of time is suggested before the week concludes.

Dan 9:26
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Dan 9:27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."


As for the millennium, that occurs when the devil is bound. My current position is, if Christ is currently reigning and the devil is indeed bound - you and I would not be having this discussion because we would both know better. And there would not be wars, or robberies, or rapes, or killing of children, or starvation ... in the millennium, the devil's will and intentions are put away.
 
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Interplanner

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The interesting thing about this world since the Gospel is that it is not as bad as it could be, and there are several things that have improved as a direct result of the Gospel.

As for the 490, I think you are close. There is no reason to break up the first 483 years, and I think you are right about the last week being extenuated. My conclusion: the last week is the auspicious generation from 33--66 that had to decide about the Gospel. The decision was destructive, in a sort of common sense way: by not taking up the mission of the Gospel, and by fight Rome for freedom, they ruined themselves.

Or a person could say that half of the 70th was Christ's ministry, and half was the 3.5 years of the Jewish War from 66-70. But there are things that matter all through the generation.
 
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James-49

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The interesting thing about this world since the Gospel is that it is not as bad as it could be, and there are several things that have improved as a direct result of the Gospel.

As for the 490, I think you are close. There is no reason to break up the first 483 years, and I think you are right about the last week being extenuated. My conclusion: the last week is the auspicious generation from 33--66 that had to decide about the Gospel. The decision was destructive, in a sort of common sense way: by not taking up the mission of the Gospel, and by fight Rome for freedom, they ruined themselves.

Or a person could say that half of the 70th was Christ's ministry, and half was the 3.5 years of the Jewish War from 66-70. But there are things that matter all through the generation.

There's one aspect that doesn't agree with the 33 to 66AD range:

The entire world population was estimated at 200,000,000 at that time - two hundred million.

Rev 9:15-16
"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
"And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."


If this had occurred within the time frame of that first century then the entire world population were the horsemen - and there were no men remainder to slay one third of.

Also, John heard their number and was not baffled by that number - like 100 years ago a googolplex would have baffled those people. So the number John heard was one a man could number. The multitude on the sea of glass could not have occurred even if the entire world population was there.

Rev 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"
 
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Calm down. I have tried to do 'personnel and materiel' counts of the Rev myself, and ended up with some -245% of what was needed for the account to continue so I stopped. I don't think that's the approach.

Even Dan 9 with its timestamps goes into imagery to a certain extent with "the end will be with a flood" and we are to use some sanctified imagination to get that one.

don't build anything on the Rev unless it is solidly in place elsewhere.
 
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James-49

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Calm down. I have tried to do 'personnel and materiel' counts of the Rev myself, and ended up with some -245% of what was needed for the account to continue so I stopped. I don't think that's the approach.

Even Dan 9 with its timestamps goes into imagery to a certain extent with "the end will be with a flood" and we are to use some sanctified imagination to get that one.

don't build anything on the Rev unless it is solidly in place elsewhere.

I am calm. Shame on you.
 
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