Election = ticket to Heaven?

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Hi A Breathern in Christ;
This sounds like your saying we can just go on and sin and let God take care of it. Just go ahead and sin all we want so that grace may abound. Paul said "God forbid" to this. This is what is so false about the OSAS idea.

Did I say that God wants us too sin .....NO

God says that we will 1 john 1:8-10 and He has given us to correct are frame of mind one way or another

on OSAS explain eph 5:19-21 and eph 5:22-23 with 1 thes 5:23

It encourages Christians to sin all the more. I'm mean why not all your sins are paid for right? So now, because God came to us and picked us, without giving us a choice. We don't have to obey Him, we can just keep right on sinning and not even have to worry about it. Our slave Jesus Christ will come along and clean us up and make us holy. Why we don't have to do anything for Him. We don't have to believe he does that for us. We don't have to obey His comandments He'll do that for us. Why there is nothing we can do, Christ will do it all. We can just sin all we like it makes no difference. Let's party.

That lawlessness what you are talking about.....

still need to ask your self why does Paul talk about two different wills in ephesians?

We wouldn't want to do any thing for Christ, because we might have something to bragg about. God forbid that we might actually want to do His will and His will is that none perish. His will is that we come to Him. He stated that if we Love Him we will keep His comandments. Yet with all this we don't have to worry He's going to do it all. There is one thing for sure. We should remember that Hind sight is 20/20. but by the time it's hind sight it's to late.


In Christ;
Romanbear

Not getting the point Romanbear

another example

1 cor 6:16-20 . 1 cor 7:20-24 choice to serve God or
get punished by God Hebrews 12:3-11

why does paul keep encouraging them to do what God commanded them in Corthinians say look at 1 cor 3:3,4:21, 11:22

It's because they were obeying John 13:34-35 why they were doing what they wanted to do NOT GOD"S COMMANDMENTS yet they were saved and warned of punishment of Hebrews 12:3-11

 

[Sunbeam]

Sunbeam I want you to prove this allegation. It is a slander on the upright men and women that are in reform churches.

You have now made this allegation a couple of times and I now call you prove that Calvinists are not interested in conforming to the image of Christ ..or repent and admit you have no proof.

Your words are slanderous. So prove your words or I will consider you a liar. i demand an apology and a retraction..or PROVE YOUR WORDS

I didn't slander. Play nice.

 

[Sunbeam]

You are right..I apologize on that . But as I read his words all I can think of is the intellectualization of the gospel as preached in the Unitarian church. I can think of no other church that teaches this "gospel"

Churches that teach the faith plus obedience standpoint that are Christian, and believe Christ as sole Lord and Savior:
Church of Christ
Salvation Army
Assembly of God
United Brethren
Church of Nazarene
Pentocostal Churches
Church of God of Prophecy

and there are others as well

 

[Sunbeam]

This sounds like your saying we can just go on and sin and let God take care of it. Just go ahead and sin all we want so that grace may abound. Paul said "God forbid" to this. This is what is so false about the OSAS idea. It encourages Christians to sin all the more. I'm mean why not all your sins are paid for right? So now, because God came to us and picked us, without giving us a choice. We don't have to obey Him, we can just keep right on sinning and not even have to worry about it. Our slave Jesus Christ will come along and clean us up and make us holy. Why we don't have to do anything for Him. We don't have to believe he does that for us. We don't have to obey His comandments He'll do that for us. Why there is nothing we can do, Christ will do it all. We can just sin all we like it makes no difference. Let's party.

We wouldn't want to do any thing for Christ, because we might have something to bragg about. God forbid that we might actually want to do His will and His will is that none perish. His will is that we come to Him. He stated that if we Love Him we will keep His comandments. Yet with all this we don't have to worry He's going to do it all. There is one thing for sure. We should remember that Hind sight is 20/20. but by the time it's hind sight it's to late.


In Christ;
Romanbear

Hi Romanbear. I agree. It's scary to me to see such a large group hold to that view

 

[Sunbeam]

Very good! "Pursue peace with all men, and the holiness without which NO one will see the Lord." Heb12:14 Pursue? Wait --- if we are PREDESTINED, then isn't our "pursuing", GIVEN?

Pursuing means we have to do something. We are told, commanded to do this. I think its hard, but that's the way it is.

How can pursuing be given? It is something we have to do. I guess if one believe that we are predestined, then they would believe "pursuing" would be given although that sure doesn't make sense.

(While you are reading in Heb12, please read the next verse: 12:15 "See to it that none of you falls short of the GRACE of GOD; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled." Again, where is the "Divine Election" in this? If God regenerates the heart, then how is it even POSSIBLE for ANY to "fall short of grace"? Does that make SENSE?

No, it doesn't. If we fall short of the grace of God, and become defiled, that means judgment for us if we don't turn back or change our thinking somehow. It is something we have to do. There is no divine election by just believing.

Well, you are right; we are not to judge ANYONE. Not with our own measure, anyway. But anyone who denies Jesus is GOD, and who denies salvation is by GRACE and not WORKS (which both JW's and LDS's do), denies the gospel; and God has judged them already.

I don't judge their salvation personally as I wouldn't judge a calvinsts salvation or an arminians salvation or any christians. I can disagree with them on what they believe or do but I don't judge their salvation. I don't know their end. The LDS and JWs are very cliquish groups who judge all others to hell, but I wouldn't do the same with them. Certainly wouldn't want to belong to either group for many many things that I find to be strange.

 

[rnmomof7]

Churches that teach the faith plus obedience standpoint that are Christian, and believe Christ as sole Lord and Savior:
Church of Christ
Salvation Army
Assembly of God
United Brethren
Church of Nazarene
Pentocostal Churches
Church of God of Prophecy

and there are others as well

Church of christ comes from the restoration movement and teaches falsely that baptism in their church is needed for salvation.

All the others teach salvation by faith not works

( I attended an AOG and was a member of the Nazarene church.)

 

[Sunbeam]

Church of christ comes from the restoration movement and teaches falsely that baptism in their church is needed for salvation.

All the others teach salvation by faith not works

( I attended an AOG and was a member of the Nazarene church.)

They are all arminian churches that believe in salvation is by grace, but we need to hold to a standard as well. It's really then like faith plus obedience and not faith plus works, although sometimes the word works is used like the word obedience.

As far as the COC, I don't think baptism is needed either and I do think people are gifted today, which is something else they don't believe in.

I have had some reservations about some AOG churches I've attended I admit.

I've known a few people that have been hurt in overstrict Nazarene churches too. Not me- I've never been in one.

However, I do agree with alot of their doctrinal statements. I don't like hypergiftings of slayings, group tonuges etc. although I could put up with it and not cause a problem. I mean its not something I have to do. It still bothers me though I admit.

 

[rnmomof7]

I didn't slander. Play nice.

No play , I do not "play "
You have slandered the character of Calvinists in previous post.

I now hold you to accountability to prove your slanderous allegations.

You said

Most of the calvinists I've met take a somewhat loose liberal attitude in their lives which makes me uncomfortable

Then you took it up a notch

They have knocked out decent standards.

and then this

But I read that the Bible does have commandments. That is beyond rules and regulations. Calvinists sure seem liberal to me when they don't believe in those.

I asked you the following

Sunbeam I want you to prove this allegation. It is a slander on the upright men and women that are in reform churches. You have now made this allegation a couple of times and I now call you prove that Calvinists are not interested in conforming to the image of Christ ..or repent and admit you have no proof.

Your words are slanderous. So prove your words or I will consider you a liar. i demand an apology and a retraction..or PROVE YOUR WORDS

(post 175)
I asked for proof of that slanderous statement . It is obvious there is none or you would have presented it.

So Sun that makes you a liar and slanderer .

I expect either an apology , a retraction or proof.

 

[rnmomof7]

They are all arminian churches that believe in salvation is by grace, but we need to hold to a standard as well. It's really then like faith plus obedience and not faith plus works, although sometimes the word works is used like the word obedience.

No Sunbeam once again you prove you have no clue as to doctrine.

They are not ALL arminian churches..


Church of Christ..restoration church
Salvation Army..Wesleyan
Assembly of God.. Break off of Wesleyan /Arminian
United Brethren..Arminian
Church of Nazarene..Wesleyan/arminian
Pentocostal Churches..All churches that teach a "second blessing" come from a Wesleyan heritage.
Church of God of Prophecy.. They deny a link to any doctrine..but because they believe in a second blessing they could be placed in the Wesleyan camp

As far as the COC, I don't think baptism is needed either and I do think people are gifted today, which is something else they don't believe in.

A works based salvation

I have had some reservations about some AOG churches I've attended I admit.

I've known a few people that have been hurt in overstrict Nazarene churches too. Not me- I've never been in one.

Then you error in your desire to classify them

However, I do agree with alot of their doctrinal statements. I don't like hypergiftings of slayings, group tonuges etc. although I could put up with it and not cause a problem. I mean its not something I have to do. It still bothers me though I admit.

The Church of the Nazarene does not believe in "slaying in the spirit," or tongues etc. They view the second blessing as one of sinless perfection (holiness through the Holy Spirit (not your effort)
The holiness churches and the methodists (original Wesleyan ) broke with the Pentecostal churches because of the display of spiritual gifts.

Most Arminian churches believe in once saved always saved.
( I am sure there are some that do not..but the majority do )

 

[rnmomof7]

I don't judge their salvation personally as I wouldn't judge a calvinsts salvation or an arminians salvation or any christians. I can disagree with them on what they believe or do but I don't judge their salvation. I don't know their end. The LDS and JWs are very cliquish groups who judge all others to hell, but I wouldn't do the same with them. Certainly wouldn't want to belong to either group for many many things that I find to be strange.

Again you slander the faith of the founding fathers of the reformation by placing us in the company of the cults.

I feel free to judge the salvation of those that worship another god or that think that salvation is based on their works and not on grace alone .

It is another gospel and Paul said to call it Anathema .
There is only one way to heaven and that is through Christ.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[nobdysfool]

Hi Romanbear. I agree. It's scary to me to see such a large group hold to that view

Too bad he doesn't know what he's talking about....

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. (Jam 4:11)

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (Joh 7:24)

If you want to know what a Christian believes, you don't ask a Muslim. If you want to know what a Calvinist believes, you don't ask an Arminian, or a Catholic, or a Mormon. And if you're going to attack or try to refute Calvinism, you should spend some time studying Calvinist writings, not writings about Calvinists. "Institutes of the Christian Religion", by John Calvin, for starters, and the "Canons of Dordt". If, after reading and absorbing those works, you still feel the need to try to refute it, at least you'll know what you're talking about. Until then, it's half-truths, distortions, and confusion. Judging by Romanbear's responses, he's read neither.

 

[Sunbeam]

I asked for proof of that slanderous statement . It is obvious there is none or you would have presented it.

So Sun that makes you a liar and slanderer .

lol. It only makes you a namecaller.

 

[Sunbeam]

Sunbeam I want you to prove this allegation. It is a slander on the upright men and women that are in reform churches. You have now made this allegation a couple of times and I now call you prove that Calvinists are not interested in conforming to the image of Christ ..or repent and admit you have no proof.

There is no "allegations". Opinions, experiences, and viewpoints.
Calvinists do not believe we need to hold to the commandments of the bible to be saved.

 

[Sunbeam]

No play , I do not "play "

We all "play" here at Christian forums and need to abide by the rules when presenting views and recieving viewpoints. I respectfully ask you to stop with the namecalling now.

 

[Sunbeam]

If you want to know what a Christian believes, you don't ask a Muslim. If you want to know what a Calvinist believes, you don't ask an Arminian, or a Catholic, or a Mormon. And if you're going to attack or try to refute Calvinism, you should spend some time studying Calvinist writings, not writings about Calvinists. "Institutes of the Christian Religion", by John Calvin, for starters, and the "Canons of Dordt". If, after reading and asbsorbing those works, you still feel the need to try to refute it, at least you'll know what you're talking about. Until then, it's half-truths, distortions, and confusion. Judging by Romanbear's responses, he's read neither.

Romanbear is well-informed in my opinion.

I've spent years in each of two calvinist churches, and had the same questions then. Now, they are answered. In my mind its clear that there is no ticket to heaven from just believing in Jesus, and verbal assent.

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinists do not believe we need to hold to the commandments of the bible to be saved.

That, my dear SunBeam, is a lie. Period.

You cannot be referring to the Law of Moses, for two reasons: First, unless you are a Jew, you were never under that Law in the first place. Second, Christ fulfilled the Law in Himself, and if you are truly a Christian, you are joined with Christ and have fulfilled the Law IN HIM.

Let me explain why. The Penalty for breaking the Law is death. Christ died for us, and when we are joined to Him in faith, we have passed (past tense) from death to Life, IN CHRIST.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:11-14)


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Gal 5:1-5)

By saying this I do not advocate lawlessness. Christ gave us the two greatest commandments, which sum up the Law and the Prophets: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. As Christians we are slaves to Righteousness, not Sin. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit in all we say, think, and do. So where do you get this false, slanderous idea that Calvinists advocate sin? Not from the bible, and not from Calvinists.

You cannot produce one shred of evidence to back your claim up.

There is no "allegations". Opinions, experiences, and viewpoints.

As long as you hold them in your own mind, that's all they are. but when you post them in a public forum, they are allegations. You allege that this is so. But you have no proof. Produce convincing proof, or retract the lie.

 

[nobdysfool]

Jn8:42 Jesus declares, "God is NOT your Father. You only PRETEND to follow Him; but you really WANT to follow EVIL." There is nothing in this that hints of "predestination" --- it is all of choice.

etc.

I will respond to this when I have some time to spend on it, which may not be for a few days. So do not take my silence as assent. I will deal with this fully and forcefully when I am able to spend the time on it.

 

[nobdysfool]

In my mind its clear that there is no ticket to heaven from just believing in Jesus, and verbal assent.

Maybe you'd better elaborate on that statement.

Romanbear is well-informed in my opinion.

Opinions vary....

 

[Sunbeam]

That, my dear SunBeam, is a lie. Period.

The above is from post #196. Thanks for the respect of not calling me a liar. The subtle shift does has a pronounced personal affect on the reciever. Not mocking/sarcasm.

By saying this I do not advocate lawlessness. Christ gave us the two greatest commandments, which sum up the Law and the Prophets: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. As Christians we are slaves to Righteousness, not Sin. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit in all we say, think, and do. So where do you get this false, slanderous idea that Calvinists advocate sin? Not from the bible, and not from Calvinists.

You cannot produce one shred of evidence to back your claim up.

TULIP backs it up.
Irresistible grace.

"It doesn't matter what we do" is constantly preached, and I haven't been brainwashed yet by it.

I'm going to have to spend more time on this before I answer. Have a very wonderful holiday season if I don't get to it for a day or two, etc.

By the way, I also appreciate your wording of your opinion of my ideas as false and slanderous and not me as a slanderer. Not that you would do that. And no sarcasm here intended either.

Happy Holidays all!

 

[rnmomof7]

We all "play" here at Christian forums and need to abide by the rules when presenting views and recieving viewpoints. I respectfully ask you to stop with the namecalling now.

I believe that you started this by the slanderous remarks about Calvinists.

I await your proof or retraction