Election = ticket to Heaven?

[armothe]

If a member of the elect dies prior to receiving Christ as their savior - where do they go?

From what I understand Calvinists teach that God predestined some people to heaven, and consequentially; others to hell (by process of elimination).

It is generally agreed upon by the Christian community that the only way to Heaven is to accept Christ as your savior.

Thus, is it safe to conclude that everyone who dies prior to accepting Christ as their savior was not of the "elect"?

-A

 

[Rick Otto]

Sounds like a safe conclusion to me.
armothe, do you have any problem with that?

 

[frumanchu]

If a member of the elect dies prior to receiving Christ as their savior - where do they go?

From what I understand Calvinists teach that God predestined some people to heaven, and consequentially; others to hell (by process of elimination).

It is generally agreed upon by the Christian community that the only way to Heaven is to accept Christ as your savior.

Thus, is it safe to conclude that everyone who dies prior to accepting Christ as their savior was not of the "elect"?

-A

That is a correct conclusion, and 2 Peter 3:9 speaks directly to this. God will not abandon the elect by failing to bring them to salvation or by coming in Judgement before the full number has been reached.

In general, nearly all people who view election as being an individual matter (ie - God electing individuals rather than groups) agree that all those who are ultimately saved are elect. The disagreement between Calvinists and non-Calvinists centers around the nature of election...whether it is a sovereign, unconditional and efficacious decree based on His own purpose, or whether it is based on foreseen faith. Either way, the result is the same. Those who are saved are the elect. Those who are not are not.

 

[Gamecock]

If a member of the elect dies prior to receiving Christ as their savior - where do they go?

From what I understand Calvinists teach that God predestined some people to heaven, and consequentially; others to hell (by process of elimination).

It is generally agreed upon by the Christian community that the only way to Heaven is to accept Christ as your savior.

Thus, is it safe to conclude that everyone who dies prior to accepting Christ as their savior was not of the "elect"?

-A

I think you are finally catching on!

 

[Ben johnson]

So --- God interferes in the lives of the "elect-but-not-yet-saved", preventing them from DYING prior to becoming saved.

Does He exhibit such interference AFTER they are saved? I mean, we hear of Christians being killed in car wrecks, or dying of cancer, etc; if God prevents the TRULY ELECT from dying before believing, wouldn't it be a valid conclusion that those who die AFTER salvation, weren't really under His umbrella of protection? (Which is to say, does God offer MORE physical protection BEFORE we believe?)

Or is any Christian who dies prematurely, not really elect?

 

[frumanchu]

So --- God interferes in the lives of the "elect-but-not-yet-saved", preventing them from DYING prior to becoming saved.

Does He exhibit such interference AFTER they are saved? I mean, we hear of Christians being killed in car wrecks, or dying of cancer, etc; if God prevents the TRULY ELECT from dying before believing, wouldn't it be a valid conclusion that those who die AFTER salvation, weren't really under His umbrella of protection? (Which is to say, does God offer MORE physical protection BEFORE we believe?)

Or is any Christian who dies prematurely, not really elect?

Huh? I can't even follow your logic here, Ben.

I think you're trying to read way more into what we've said that what is actually there.

All we're saying is that God will ensure that His elect are brought to faith before death. To even think otherwise would be to consider God as unfaithful or unable to carry out that which He decrees.

By the way...please tell me how a Christian (or anyone else for that matter) can "die prematurely." Are you asking if someone can die before God thinks they will die? I'm confused here, Ben. Help me out.

 

[Gamecock]

So --- God interferes in the lives of the "elect-but-not-yet-saved", preventing them from DYING prior to becoming saved.

Does He exhibit such interference AFTER they are saved? I mean, we hear of Christians being killed in car wrecks, or dying of cancer, etc; if God prevents the TRULY ELECT from dying before believing, wouldn't it be a valid conclusion that those who die AFTER salvation, weren't really under His umbrella of protection? (Which is to say, does God offer MORE physical protection BEFORE we believe?)

Or is any Christian who dies prematurely, not really elect?

Who deterimes the point and time of a persons death? Who is Soveriegn Lord of all creation?

How can you say God interferes with the elect by "preventing them from dying prior to becoming saved?"

And as far as his umbrella of protection: isn't everyone going to leave this earthly body, saved or not.

My question to you is this: Does God rule all of creation or not?

 

[CCWoody]

So --- God interferes in the lives of the "elect-but-not-yet-saved", preventing them from DYING prior to becoming saved.

Does He exhibit such interference AFTER they are saved? I mean, we hear of Christians being killed in car wrecks, or dying of cancer, etc; if God prevents the TRULY ELECT from dying before believing, wouldn't it be a valid conclusion that those who die AFTER salvation, weren't really under His umbrella of protection? (Which is to say, does God offer MORE physical protection BEFORE we believe?)

Or is any Christian who dies prematurely, not really elect?

I was nearly killed several years ago when I was run from the highway while riding my Goldwing.

1. Did God not care someone tried to kill me?
2. Was He unable to interfere with someone's free will choice to interfere with my free will?
3. Did He just not see what was fixing to happen?

Or was is something much more personal and intimate, from which a man utters the following words....

Though You slay me, yet I will trust in You.
​

You know, the mamby pamby Bruce AlmostMight god which modern day Churchainity tells me is worthy of worship is not even interesting to me.

1. He seems more concerned about an infidel's free will than He does about His own children.
2. He is impotent before the suffering of His children.
3. He is utterly unable to have His desires satisfied.
4. His counsel is completely overthrown by His creation.
5. ec....

They make God into practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam's fall. This miserable caricature commands the respect of no truly thoughtful man. And, belief in him is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely,...

• Surely the rage of man shall turne to thy praise: the remnant of the rage shalt thou restrayne.
  (Psa 76:10 GB)

I'll take this over Bruce AlmostMighty, the deity of maudlin sentimentality preached from most Pulpits which is derserving only of pity, any day:

• Whatever His soul desires, that He does.
• He does according to His will among the inhabitants of the earth.
• He does whatever He pleases.

Remember this, and be ashamed: bring it againe to minde, O you transgressers. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none other God, and there is nothing like me, Which declare the last thing from the beginning: and from of olde, the things that were not done, saying, My counsell shall stand, and I will doe whatsoeuer I will.... as I haue spoken, so will I bring it to passe: I haue purposed it, and I will doe it.
(Isa 46:8-11 GB)

 

[armothe]

I was nearly killed several years ago when I was run from the highway while riding my Goldwing.

1. He seems more concerned about an infidel's free will than He does about His own children.
2. He is impotent before the suffering of His children.
3. He is utterly unable to have His desires satisfied.
4. His counsel is completely overthrown by His creation.
5. ec....

Were you a Christian at the time of the accident?

-A

 

[Charismaniac]

Could a trully loving God creat something with a for knowledge that it is going to Hell?

 

[Gabriel]

Could a trully loving God creat something with a for knowledge that it is going to Hell?

Consult Romans 9:13 - the end of the chapter and ask again, if you need to.


Concerning the OP; Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice and they will come." Tell me, when do they become his sheep? When they choose to? Or when they answer His call? Neither. They are already His sheep (before the foundation of the earth- Ephesians), He calls them, they come.

Therefore, God does not "keep us alive" until we choose Him, because we don't choose him. We realize Christ is our Savior, we die, we are born, we do what we do, all according the the plan of a soveriegn and omnipotent God. None of it is random. He is not up there like a mother hen saying, "Wait, you can't die, you are my elect yet you have not chosen me as of yet."

Woody didn't die for 2 reasons. 1) It wasn't part of God's plan for him to die at that time. 2) He wasn't riding a big cumbersome Harley which would have hit the dirt and squashed him like a pancake. Although, Reason number 2 is directly related to reason number 1.

As far as "God interfering in our lives" I would say He does so with every breathe we take. He did not wind up the world and leave it to it's own accord.

 

[frumanchu]

Could a trully loving God creat something with a for knowledge that it is going to Hell?

Can an omniscient, omnipresent God create something WITHOUT a foreknowledge of whether or not it is going to Hell?

 

[Charismaniac]

Um.. well I guess not.

 

[Charismaniac]

Still you have not answered my question there.

 

[A.J.A.]

Hey Calvinist homies.

I just signed up again at this forum.

 

[Rick Otto]

How about "Yes" for an answer.
Any problem w/that?

How could an omniscient God NOT foreknow everything?
How else could He display justice? How could there be Mercy w/out justice?

 

[Gamecock]

Could a trully loving God creat something with a for knowledge that it is going to Hell?

Could a trully loving God creat something with a for knowledge that it is going to Hell?

From a free will perspective: If God only chooses us becuse He knows we will choose Him first, and then created people who He knew from the foundation of the earth would not choose Him, did He not create them for hell?



Your argument cuts both ways my friend!



So answer your question from a free will perspective: Could a trully loving God create something with a forknowledge that he will not choose him and is going to Hell?






The better question is why did God choose me? And be greatful that He did!

 

[Gabriel]

How about "Yes" for an answer.
Any problem w/that?

How could an omniscient God NOT foreknow everything?
How else could He display justice? How could there be Mercy w/out justice?

Ah, but withholding justice is mercy. Consider this, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." "The wages of sin is death." So what is just? That all pay the price for sin. But, God has mercy on some. Ted Bundy killed alot of women. He received justice. I bet he didn't think it was good, though. We deserve to die for our sin, but some of us don't. We receive mercy, not justice.

Those who go to hell get what we all deserve. Justice.

Hi A.J.A. and welcome. Signed up again? What was your name before?

 

[A.J.A.]

It was A.J.A.

It was a while ago and my whole previous posting history got eaten by a crash.

 

[CCWoody]

Still you have not answered my question there.

Well, I'll be happy to answer it, without any surgar coating it either. But, then, I'm an Absolute Double Predestinarian who has never been afraid to speak his mind. And I had to get myself a broken back before I snapped out of my doledrum of indifference to any relationship with my Creator & Redeemer. Ah, it is a fearful thing to be in the hands of the Living God. (I hope that sufficiently answers the other question directed toward me about my "accident.")

Stated in its baldest form, Has God foreordained certain persons to be burned forever in the Lake of Fire? Scriptures teach us a resounding....

YES!

Now, all true Christians will acknowledge that from before the foundation of the world, the LORD God foreknew and foresaw all who would not believe upon the Lord Jesus for the oblation of their sins and the delight of their hearts. For to not believe such is the heresy of Open Theism, with its close cousin Molinianism. It is a clear denial of the Omniscience of God, vile and disguisting.

Therefore, in giving being and life to those whom He already knew would reject Him ultimately and finally, He therefore created them unto damnation. This is the Calvinist and Biblical doctrine of Reprobation.

• The Lord hath made all things for his owne sake: yea, euen the wicked for the day of euill.
  (Pro 16:4 GB)

I'll leave you with these sobering words: THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE [GOD] BLINDED THEIR EYES....

Therefore could they not beleeue, because that Esaias saith againe, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they shoulde not see with their eyes, nor vnderstand with their heart, and should be conuerted, and I should heale them.
(Joh 12:39-40 GB)​