Election or foreknowledge

[Neostarwcc]

I've studied extensively both Calvinism and Arminism over the course of my Christian walk. I've found that there are truths in both theories but ultimately there is the most truth in the way Calvinists say we are elected and saved. Why? Not only do I believe the bible declares so but to state that God looked into the future and saw who would choose him causes two problems. One if we are totally deprived and cannot come to Christ without the intervention of God (see John 6:44,66) how can God know who will come to faith? Two what is the point in Christ dying for the world when he already knows who's going to accept him in the end? Why suffer extra for sinners who will never inherit salvation? Or who never accepted your salvation in the past? Three, this is based on the idea that we chose God and that God did not God chose us. Lets ignore the fact that man cant come to God without Gods intervention. The bible is chuck full of verses in both the new and old testament that state that God elected us to salvation. Scripture says time and time again that God chose us we didnt choose him.

I argue for the doctrine of election because that's what the apostles say over and over again. Peter says in both of his letters that we were chosen by God. Paul says in Roman's 8 & 9 that we were chosen by God, plus again in Ephesians (and even in one of the most frequently quoted verses in the bible Ephesians 2:8-9 says that our salvation was not of ourselves but completely from God), Titus, just... all over the apostles letters and Christ said multiple times as well in the gospels that we did not choose God. He chose us.

Not to mention Gods plan has completely been perfectly executed without failure from the beginning.

Think about it. Gods plan of salvation has been perfectly executed ever since Adam and Eve sinned. Noah obeyed God perfectly, so did Moses, Joshua, Daniel, Isaiah, Micah, Jesus Christ (well he was God in the flesh so perfection was easy for him but he still deserves a mention because without him Gods plan would gave had no power). Even me and you are perfectly executing God's plan in our own lives as we speak. How do I know? Jesus says in John 6:37-40 that ALL who are elected by God (given from the Father to the son) will not be lost. He will not lose one! How can that possibly be if humanity was not completely and perfectly fulfilling God's plan? If you dont tell x person that God wanted to save there would be no salvation for that person because faith comes from the word of God and God unburdening the heart of the one being saved!

Our missionary work in bringing people to Christ is bringing the gospel message to the exact people that God planned them to be. We're giving to the exact Charities he wanted us to and answering the prayers that he wanted us to all from before the foundation of the world. God's plan for all of us cannot and will not fail because if it fails in even the tiniest of details there would be no salvation or God lied when he said all of his sheep were saved! It is impossible because God is guiding us like he guided every one of us before us. That's why not one single part of his plan has failed or ever will.

In the beginnings of Gods promise to Abraham God promised Abraham that his descendants (the saved) would be as numerous as the stars from every tribe, people, and nation. He called Israel his chosen people and we are his chosen people and nothing we do can nullify that fact of life. So rejoice! God has chosen YOU to be his child forevermore!

But, I've said my piece. Id like to hear yours. Did God act on his foreknowledge or were we all elected by him based on the "pleasure if his good will"? Discuss.

 

[com7fy8]

not one single part of his plan has failed or ever will.

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)

So, included in our guarantee is how God will have His word succeeding with us who are His children . . . the way He means His word, better than how we can get ourselves to understand and choose to do all He means. So we trust Him, then, and depend on Him > 2 Corinthians 3:4-6.

Did God act on his foreknowledge or were we all elected by him based on the "pleasure if his good will"?

He knows because He is in control; so it is both >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

 

[CaspianSails]

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)

So, included in our guarantee is how God will have His word succeeding with us who are His children . . . the way He means His word, better than how we can get ourselves to understand and choose to do all He means. So we trust Him, then, and depend on Him > 2 Corinthians 3:4-6.

He knows because He is in control; so it is both >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

 

[CaspianSails]

I've studied extensively both Calvinism and Arminism over the course of my Christian walk. I've found that there are truths in both theories but ultimately there is the most truth in the way Calvinists say we are elected and saved. Why? Not only do I believe the bible declares so but to state that God looked into the future and saw who would choose him causes two problems. One if we are totally deprived and cannot come to Christ without the intervention of God (see John 6:44,66) how can God know who will come to faith? Two what is the point in Christ dying for the world when he already knows who's going to accept him in the end? Why suffer extra for sinners who will never inherit salvation? Or who never accepted your salvation in the past? Three, this is based on the idea that we chose God and that God did not God chose us. Lets ignore the fact that man cant come to God without Gods intervention. The bible is chuck full of verses in both the new and old testament that state that God elected us to salvation. Scripture says time and time again that God chose us we didnt choose him.

I argue for the doctrine of election because that's what the apostles say over and over again. Peter says in both of his letters that we were chosen by God. Paul says in Roman's 8 & 9 that we were chosen by God, plus again in Ephesians (and even in one of the most frequently quoted verses in the bible Ephesians 2:8-9 says that our salvation was not of ourselves but completely from God), Titus, just... all over the apostles letters and Christ said multiple times as well in the gospels that we did not choose God. He chose us.

Not to mention Gods plan has completely been perfectly executed without failure from the beginning.

Think about it. Gods plan of salvation has been perfectly executed ever since Adam and Eve sinned. Noah obeyed God perfectly, so did Moses, Joshua, Daniel, Isaiah, Micah, Jesus Christ (well he was God in the flesh so perfection was easy for him but he still deserves a mention because without him Gods plan would gave had no power). Even me and you are perfectly executing God's plan in our own lives as we speak. How do I know? Jesus says in John 6:37-40 that ALL who are elected by God (given from the Father to the son) will not be lost. He will not lose one! How can that possibly be if humanity was not completely and perfectly fulfilling God's plan? If you dont tell x person that God wanted to save there would be no salvation for that person because faith comes from the word of God and God unburdening the heart of the one being saved!

Our missionary work in bringing people to Christ is bringing the gospel message to the exact people that God planned them to be. We're giving to the exact Charities he wanted us to and answering the prayers that he wanted us to all from before the foundation of the world. God's plan for all of us cannot and will not fail because if it fails in even the tiniest of details there would be no salvation or God lied when he said all of his sheep were saved! It is impossible because God is guiding us like he guided every one of us before us. That's why not one single part of his plan has failed or ever will.

In the beginnings of Gods promise to Abraham God promised Abraham that his descendants (the saved) would be as numerous as the stars from every tribe, people, and nation. He called Israel his chosen people and we are his chosen people and nothing we do can nullify that fact of life. So rejoice! God has chosen YOU to be his child forevermore!

But, I've said my piece. Id like to hear yours. Did God act on his foreknowledge or were we all elected by him based on the "pleasure if his good will"? Discuss.

I would only reply to some of your assertions about men who perfectly obeyed God as that was not the case. Are Abraham's descendants those who know Christ or are they the tribes of Israel? What do you do with this chapter when it comes to who are the elect of God and the reference to the people of Israel and the gentiles? Romans chapter 11? I don't take a side on this issue, or at least not yet. As I see it there are relatively few differences in this. Election is one which to the Calvanist goes beyond election to sovereignty. The other is within the process of conversion. In this act most Christians are so close to agreement that the matter at issue is whether man has a choice or not. Both sides believe in the fallen nature of man and total depravity. Both sides agree the Holy Spirit works in man to reveal Christ and that man cannot of himself generate the faith to believe. Now I am not making light of either election or the process of God's revelation and at what point is salvation achieved. It is clear that man must believe but is it an act man is a participant in? If man has a will that is free does it limit God's sovereignty if God is the grantor of the will? These are the questions you have grappled with. I am not sure how you came to your choice and I don't question your choice. Have you asked yourself if you chose this as the path you believe. You state you have but was it a choice? I am less concerned if I made a conscious choice or did God chose me, in the end I am His child. I will say it was not in a Church that practiced Calvinism but I also cannot tell you if I made a choice at that moment. It was, as I recall now many decades later, that I met God and was compelled to Him. I am not certain I could have rejected the moment. But that is in hindsight and removed from the event. The person asked me if I wanted to receive Christ as my Savior and I raised my hand and prayed with her. From that moment God has been real to me and I was aware of Him and His presence all around me, even at that young age. What was the actual process? I cannot say.

 

[Neostarwcc]

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)

So, included in our guarantee is how God will have His word succeeding with us who are His children . . . the way He means His word, better than how we can get ourselves to understand and choose to do all He means. So we trust Him, then, and depend on Him > 2 Corinthians 3:4-6.

He knows because He is in control; so it is both >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

Not just that, but so that the entire world can verify and see that God's word can be trusted and is truth. If God is found to have lied anywhere in anything that he has said than he would be a sinner just like all of us and we don't have a completely Holy and Perfect God. Nobody can see the past or the future and they have to trust in the Bibles account of history to be true, but I'm sure those who rejected God and the accounts found in the Bible who have passed away believe it all now and believe in the one true God of the universe.

You know it's funny. I used to think that Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 66:23 meant all of mankind and that even the wicked would worship God. But, Christ kind of said differently, he said in hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There is no repentance. They'll know the truth, but they'll never repent of their wicked ways. They'll just grow more and more wicked as time goes on. Kind of what verse 24 says.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I would only reply to some of your assertions about men who perfectly obeyed God as that was not the case. Are Abraham's descendants those who know Christ or are they the tribes of Israel? What do you do with this chapter when it comes to who are the elect of God and the reference to the people of Israel and the gentiles? Romans chapter 11? I don't take a side on this issue, or at least not yet. As I see it there are relatively few differences in this. Election is one which to the Calvanist goes beyond election to sovereignty. The other is within the process of conversion. In this act most Christians are so close to agreement that the matter at issue is whether man has a choice or not. Both sides believe in the fallen nature of man and total depravity. Both sides agree the Holy Spirit works in man to reveal Christ and that man cannot of himself generate the faith to believe. Now I am not making light of either election or the process of God's revelation and at what point is salvation achieved. It is clear that man must believe but is it an act man is a participant in? If man has a will that is free does it limit God's sovereignty if God is the grantor of the will? These are the questions you have grappled with. I am not sure how you came to your choice and I don't question your choice. Have you asked yourself if you chose this as the path you believe. You state you have but was it a choice? I am less concerned if I made a conscious choice or did God chose me, in the end I am His child. I will say it was not in a Church that practiced Calvinism but I also cannot tell you if I made a choice at that moment. It was, as I recall now many decades later, that I met God and was compelled to Him. I am not certain I could have rejected the moment. But that is in hindsight and removed from the event. The person asked me if I wanted to receive Christ as my Savior and I raised my hand and prayed with her. From that moment God has been real to me and I was aware of Him and His presence all around me, even at that young age. What was the actual process? I cannot say.

Abrahams "descendants" did completely follow as God anticipated and wanted them to. Paul says that not all of Abrahams descendants were heirs of the promise and therefore not all of Israel is Israel. Israel was called to be a holy nation so that they can inherit the salvation that God wanted to spread across the whole world and across every people, tongue, and nation. Remember, God promised Abraham that his descendants would come from every nation in the world and through Abraham ALL nations of the world would be blessed (Genesis 12:2 & 18:18). We can agree on this right? We can also agree that no man aside from Christ has completely obeyed God's perfect law right? So the "descendants" that disobeyed God were never a part of God's Chosen people because if they were they would have repented, begged God for forgiveness, and completely trusted in and antipated the coming deliverer that could rescue them from their sins.


He came, and his own "descendants" rejected him. Instead of bowing before him and begging him for forgiveness they instead, trusted in keeping the law and trusted that they were descendants of David and Abraham for their salvation and thought of themselves as perfect, when they were FAR from perfectly keeping God's Holy and Perfect Law. It's a fact (or should be a fact anyway) that salvation comes from faith in the messiah, and that faith in the messiah brings forth repentance because God unhardens our hearts and we see just how far short we come from going into the presence of our Holy and Perfect God. So Abrahams Descendants that would inherit salvation has ALWAYS did this. Paul says that's why God gave the Law in the first place. It was to show his people that they cannot possibly EVER hope to live up to God's perfect and Holy Standard. To show them that they were sinners in need of a Savior. Christ was that Savior and those who God wrote in the book of life all accepted and will accept him. Those that were not written will reject him and reject the only hope that they have to be rescued from their sins. Otherwise, they stand guilty before a completely Holy and Righteous God for their sins against him.

God's plan has always been perfectly executed throughout history and history to come. If even one part of it fails, he would be a liar because God promised that of his sheep (However you believe they come or came to be) not ONE will be lost in several parts of the Bible. The apostles wouldn't have promised security for God's people and neither would Christ have if it wasn't true. In order for this to be true, his plan would have had to have been executed perfectly and those who you cannot deny were chosen by God would have had to perfectly obey God for salvation to even be made available in the first place. They were all participators in the coming salvation that God promised to Adam and Eve.

Even wicked people like Judas, Caiphas, and Pilate. If Judas didn't betray Jesus thus performing his role, Christ never would have been Crucified and later raised from the dead. Caiphas and Pilate wouldn't have sentenced him to death if they didn't fulfil their roles. These all had to happen for salvation to be made available. It's all in perfect harmony.

 

[bling]

I've studied extensively both Calvinism and Arminism over the course of my Christian walk. I've found that there are truths in both theories but ultimately there is the most truth in the way Calvinists say we are elected and saved. Why? Not only do I believe the bible declares so but to state that God looked into the future and saw who would choose him causes two problems. One if we are totally deprived and cannot come to Christ without the intervention of God (see John 6:44,66) how can God know who will come to faith? Two what is the point in Christ dying for the world when he already knows who's going to accept him in the end? Why suffer extra for sinners who will never inherit salvation? Or who never accepted your salvation in the past? Three, this is based on the idea that we chose God and that God did not God chose us. Lets ignore the fact that man cant come to God without Gods intervention. The bible is chuck full of verses in both the new and old testament that state that God elected us to salvation. Scripture says time and time again that God chose us we didnt choose him.

I argue for the doctrine of election because that's what the apostles say over and over again. Peter says in both of his letters that we were chosen by God. Paul says in Roman's 8 & 9 that we were chosen by God, plus again in Ephesians (and even in one of the most frequently quoted verses in the bible Ephesians 2:8-9 says that our salvation was not of ourselves but completely from God), Titus, just... all over the apostles letters and Christ said multiple times as well in the gospels that we did not choose God. He chose us.

Not to mention Gods plan has completely been perfectly executed without failure from the beginning.

Think about it. Gods plan of salvation has been perfectly executed ever since Adam and Eve sinned. Noah obeyed God perfectly, so did Moses, Joshua, Daniel, Isaiah, Micah, Jesus Christ (well he was God in the flesh so perfection was easy for him but he still deserves a mention because without him Gods plan would gave had no power). Even me and you are perfectly executing God's plan in our own lives as we speak. How do I know? Jesus says in John 6:37-40 that ALL who are elected by God (given from the Father to the son) will not be lost. He will not lose one! How can that possibly be if humanity was not completely and perfectly fulfilling God's plan? If you dont tell x person that God wanted to save there would be no salvation for that person because faith comes from the word of God and God unburdening the heart of the one being saved!

Our missionary work in bringing people to Christ is bringing the gospel message to the exact people that God planned them to be. We're giving to the exact Charities he wanted us to and answering the prayers that he wanted us to all from before the foundation of the world. God's plan for all of us cannot and will not fail because if it fails in even the tiniest of details there would be no salvation or God lied when he said all of his sheep were saved! It is impossible because God is guiding us like he guided every one of us before us. That's why not one single part of his plan has failed or ever will.

In the beginnings of Gods promise to Abraham God promised Abraham that his descendants (the saved) would be as numerous as the stars from every tribe, people, and nation. He called Israel his chosen people and we are his chosen people and nothing we do can nullify that fact of life. So rejoice! God has chosen YOU to be his child forevermore!

But, I've said my piece. Id like to hear yours. Did God act on his foreknowledge or were we all elected by him based on the "pleasure if his good will"? Discuss.

Again, there is this strawman erected “this imaginary person saying he saved himself or at least did something righteous worthy of salvation” which is easily defeated.

First: Could you explain to me your statement: “Gods plan of salvation has been perfectly executed ever since Adam and Eve sinned.”? Are you saying Adam and Eve’s sin was not part of God’s perfect plan? Did Adam and Eve have at least some free will to sin?

For the last 100 years now it has been shown that time is relative, so do you think time would be relative for God?

Would you see God as being outside of time, not limited by time and possible even the creator of human time?

We talk about God being omnipresent, so if God is outside of time, He would be omnipresent throughout time and thus the God at the end of human time, knowing all things, would know everything about every human which ever lived as pure unchangeable history. History is unchangeable, since it happened and even if God redid something the first time it happened still happened even if God is the only one to know of it. The God at the end of time would thus be conveying to Himself at the beginning of time everything man did throughout time, so God knows the unchangeable human future from the beginning of time and can record it in a book, but that knowledge (foreknowledge in human understanding) does not mean some limited free will choices cannot have been made by humans, since knowing historically a free will choice does not prevent that choice from being a free will choice.

God in communicating with man would talk about the future, since it is future for man, without explaining Him being outside of time (we know very little about how God does any miracle just the fact they happened).

God being God before (if there is a “before” for God) determined/willed, He would have certain people join Him in heaven and these “elect” or “chosen” would be: all those who freely accepted His Love as pure undeserving charity (God’s Mercy, Grace, Love, Charity, and Forgiveness).

It is very true the nonbelieving sinner cannot do anything honorable, righteous, worthy, deserving of anything, but the unbelieving sinner can wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy while God is still his enemy in hopes of receiving undeserved charity and thus have some kind of livable life. Again, the sinner is not joining God or doing anything toward deserving salvation. Actually the surrendering sinner should be tortured to death for previous war crimes.

 

[K Watt]

I've studied extensively both Calvinism and Arminism over the course of my Christian walk. I've found that there are truths in both theories but ultimately there is the most truth in the way Calvinists say we are elected and saved. Why? Not only do I believe the bible declares so but to state that God looked into the future and saw who would choose him causes two problems. One if we are totally deprived and cannot come to Christ without the intervention of God (see John 6:44,66) how can God know who will come to faith? Two what is the point in Christ dying for the world when he already knows who's going to accept him in the end? Why suffer extra for sinners who will never inherit salvation? Or who never accepted your salvation in the past? Three, this is based on the idea that we chose God and that God did not God chose us. Lets ignore the fact that man cant come to God without Gods intervention. The bible is chuck full of verses in both the new and old testament that state that God elected us to salvation. Scripture says time and time again that God chose us we didnt choose him.

I argue for the doctrine of election because that's what the apostles say over and over again. Peter says in both of his letters that we were chosen by God. Paul says in Roman's 8 & 9 that we were chosen by God, plus again in Ephesians (and even in one of the most frequently quoted verses in the bible Ephesians 2:8-9 says that our salvation was not of ourselves but completely from God), Titus, just... all over the apostles letters and Christ said multiple times as well in the gospels that we did not choose God. He chose us.

Not to mention Gods plan has completely been perfectly executed without failure from the beginning.

Think about it. Gods plan of salvation has been perfectly executed ever since Adam and Eve sinned. Noah obeyed God perfectly, so did Moses, Joshua, Daniel, Isaiah, Micah, Jesus Christ (well he was God in the flesh so perfection was easy for him but he still deserves a mention because without him Gods plan would gave had no power). Even me and you are perfectly executing God's plan in our own lives as we speak. How do I know? Jesus says in John 6:37-40 that ALL who are elected by God (given from the Father to the son) will not be lost. He will not lose one! How can that possibly be if humanity was not completely and perfectly fulfilling God's plan? If you dont tell x person that God wanted to save there would be no salvation for that person because faith comes from the word of God and God unburdening the heart of the one being saved!

Our missionary work in bringing people to Christ is bringing the gospel message to the exact people that God planned them to be. We're giving to the exact Charities he wanted us to and answering the prayers that he wanted us to all from before the foundation of the world. God's plan for all of us cannot and will not fail because if it fails in even the tiniest of details there would be no salvation or God lied when he said all of his sheep were saved! It is impossible because God is guiding us like he guided every one of us before us. That's why not one single part of his plan has failed or ever will.

In the beginnings of Gods promise to Abraham God promised Abraham that his descendants (the saved) would be as numerous as the stars from every tribe, people, and nation. He called Israel his chosen people and we are his chosen people and nothing we do can nullify that fact of life. So rejoice! God has chosen YOU to be his child forevermore!

But, I've said my piece. Id like to hear yours. Did God act on his foreknowledge or were we all elected by him based on the "pleasure if his good will"? Discuss.

God's grace draws all men. This gives us the ability to seek him.

God knows who will ultimately follow his will, but he elects those who follow his lead. He doesn't lead anyone to hell.