Election is an appointment to service

[FreeGrace2]

From Paul's own testimony, compared to what Jesus told Ananias, we know that Paul's election was an appointment to service.

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he (Ananias) said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Now, consider Paul's own testimony regarding that day on the road to Damascus:

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

This is irrefutable proof that God's election is an appointment for service.

No different than any election, which is an appointment to "office", which is, in effect, for service.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I'm not sure what the name of that fallacy is, but it goes along the lines of proving that if barns have doors, then doors must not be the entrances to houses. I don't think anyone here would dispute that Paul was chosen for the purpose of spreading the Gospel, but you've got a logical leap if you assume that it proves that salvation does not come by election.

If you read the entirety of Romans 9, you'll see that it is about both the election unto salvation:

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

...and it's about proclaiming the Gospel:

I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

In one passage, election for both purposes is defined. Either election is for both salvation and the spreading of the Gospel, or it is possible for election to be for either one, but one cannot preclude the other, or they would not have both been defined this way in the same passage.

I would argue that election goes way beyond just the election to faith and salvation. God has power above and beyond everything. The reason that the debate always comes down to election unto salvation is merely because that's the only point upon which we disagree. The Arminian point of view does not contest the idea of being chosen for ministry. It's position does not contest divine intervention of any kind, except when it comes to free will, and especially the free will to choose faith and salvation. That's why we debate that point, and not the point of whether one is elected to ministry, which we both agree is true; we are elected to ministry, also.

If you find other verses that demonstrate election to other things, other than faith, salvation and ministry, then you still show the Calvinistic belief that God is in control.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not sure what the name of that fallacy is, but it goes along the lines of proving that if barns have doors, then doors must not be the entrances to houses.

Don't know what "fallacy" this is referring to, but the sentence seems to have no relevance to the OP at all.

I don't think anyone here would dispute that Paul was chosen for the purpose of spreading the Gospel, but you've got a logical leap if you assume that it proves that salvation does not come by election.

What the OP shows is that Paul's election isn't about salvation, but about service.

Are you serious that The Chosen One was chosen for salvation?

If you read the entirety of Romans 9, you'll see that it is about both the election unto salvation:
"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Please show where having mercy means to save. In the meantime, I'll show from Scripture where having mercy is extended to those who have turned to Him:

Isa 55:6-7
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

What I find hein v.6 is a command to actively seek the Lord. Nothing about God choosing who He will have mercy on

Then, in v.7, and we see a clear statement that those who "turn to the Lord" are the ones to whom God will have mercy on.

Again, nothing here about being chosen for salvation. In fact, nothing in the entire Bible about being chosen (elected) for salvation.

Some will try to slip in 2 Thess 2:13 as a verse linking being chosen for salvation:
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

However, the verb here for "chose" is 'haireomai'. The Greek verb translated "elect/chose" is 'eklegomai', which obviously is a different word altogether.

The point of 2 Thess 2:13 is that God has chosen the mechanism or means by which He saves people.

And that mechanism or means is "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the truth".

I would argue that the "and" in those 2 phrases could easily be translated as "even" which lexicons show as a possible meaning.

So, iow, when one believes in the truth, the Spirit sanctifies the believer. They are synonymous.

The OP directly shows that Paul's election was an appointment. They are equated.

All appointments are for the purpose of serving.

...and it's about proclaiming the Gospel:

This is correct. And proclaiming the Gospel is a service.

In one passage, election for both purposes is defined. Either election is for both salvation and the spreading of the Gospel, or it is possible for election to be for either one, but one cannot preclude the other, or they would not have both been defined this way in the same passage.

Which verse defines election as being to salvation?

I would argue that election goes way beyond just the election to faith and salvation. God has power above and beyond everything. The reason that the debate always comes down to election unto salvation is merely because that's the only point upon which we disagree.

I disagree because there are no verses that state that God elects/appoints to salvation.

The Arminian point of view does not contest the idea of being chosen for ministry. It's position does not contest divine intervention of any kind, except when it comes to free will, and especially the free will to choose faith and salvation. That's why we debate that point, and not the point of whether one is elected to ministry, which we both agree is true; we are elected to ministry, also.

I'm not Arminian, and either supporting or arguing their view. I'm simply arguing against the notion (I don't care who claims it) that election is for salvation.

Think of this: given the acrostic TULIP, if election (to salvation) is unconditional, then faith really isn't a condition for salvation. Hm. Really want to go down that road??

Consider 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Could it be any more clear? God is pleased to save those who believe.

That's who God CHOOSES to save: those who believe.

There is nothing in the Bible about God choosing who will believe, which is the real foundation of the reformed doctrine of election.

If you find other verses that demonstrate election to other things, other than faith, salvation and ministry, then you still show the Calvinistic belief that God is in control.

There is nothing in the OP that would even suggest that God isn't in control.

However, it seems the reformed want to believe that God's sovereignty means that He chooses who will believe, which He doesn't, and 1 Cor 1:21 makes perfectly clear.

 

[hedrick]

Rom 9 is more complex than you might think. Much of it is about the election of Israel, not individuals. Furthermore, as 10 and 11 make clear, the hardening of Israel in 9:18 is partial and temporary.

That's not to say that there is no individual election. 9:24 speaks of calling some out of even the hardened Israel, as well as out of the Gentiles. While this is a calling for a purpose it's pretty clear that it's also a calling for salvation. I don't think FreeGrace2's case quite holds here. I'm not so sure that you'll see a negative version of that, however, where he elects individuals for damnation.

9:30 and on make it clear that the hardening that's part of his plan in 9:18 is also a result of human decision. Of course that's completely consistent with compatibilism, in which responsible human choice is the way God's plan works. But as we read on through 10 and 11, it becomes clear that God's plan is a plan to save people.

I understand how Calvin gets double predestination from this. In a logical sense you can deduce it, but I don't think it's explicit in the text, and I'm not so sure Paul would agree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rom 9 is more complex than you might think. Much of it is about the election of Israel, not individuals. Furthermore, as 10 and 11 make clear, the hardening of Israel in 9:18 is partial and temporary.

All true. Now, since the foundation of TULIP's election is about being chosen for salvation, can it be said that the people of Israel were all saved? Of course not.

That's not to say that there is no individual election. 9:24 speaks of calling some out of even the hardened Israel, as well as out of the Gentiles. While this is a calling for a purpose it's pretty clear that it's also a calling for salvation. I don't think FreeGrace2's case quite holds here. I'm not so sure that you'll see a negative version of that, however, where he elects individuals for damnation.

Which verse or verses actually states that God elects unconditionally for salvation, which is the Calvinist position?

9:30 and on make it clear that the hardening that's part of his plan in 9:18 is also a result of human decision. Of course that's completely consistent with compatibilism, in which responsible human choice is the way God's plan works. But as we read on through 10 and 11, it becomes clear that God's plan is a plan to save people.

Yes, God does have a plan to save people. And 1 Cor 1:21 is as clear a verse as possible about exactly who He chooses to save: believers.

 

[lesliedellow]

Election can be to service.
Therefore it cannot be to salvation/reprobation.

That would seem to be something of a non sequitur.

Meat can come from a sheep.
Therefore it cannot come from a cow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Election can be to service.
Therefore it cannot be to salvation/reprobation.

If you think there are any verses that teach that God elects to salvation, please share.

Meat can come from a sheep.
Therefore it cannot come from a cow.

Irrelevant.

If you have any verses that teach that God elects people to salvation apart from conditions, please share.

We'll see who has the non sequitur.

 

[lesliedellow]

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. - Prov 16.4

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. - Acts 2:47

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. - John 6.65

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. - Prov 16.4

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. - Acts 2:47

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. - John 6.65

Great verses, yet none of them addresses the subject at hand.

Was there any specific purpose in quoting them?

I had asked for specific verses that God unconitionally elects people for salvation. Do you have any?

 

[lesliedellow]

Great verses, yet none of them addresses the subject at hand.

Was there any specific purpose in quoting them?

I had asked for specific verses that God unconitionally elects people for salvation. Do you have any?

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10

1.) Salvation is by faith.
2.) Faith is a gift of God.
3.) It is not a gift given as a result of works; foreseen or otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"I had asked for specific verses that God unconitionally elects people for salvation. Do you have any?"

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10

1.) Salvation is by faith.
2.) Faith is a gift of God.
3.) It is not a gift given as a result of works; foreseen or otherwise.

First, Eph 2:8,9 specifically conditions salvation on faith. So that knocks out this verse teaching unconditional election to salvation.

So, again, are there any verses that actually say that God unconditionally elects people for salvation?

 

[lesliedellow]

I asked this:
"I had asked for specific verses that God unconitionally elects people for salvation. Do you have any?"

First, Eph 2:8,9 specifically conditions salvation on faith. So that knocks out this verse teaching unconditional election to salvation.

So, again, are there any verses that actually say that God unconditionally elects people for salvation?

Salvation is by faith. Faith is the gift of God. God does not give that gift based on any work of ours. Therefore God bestows that gift unconditionally. Therefore God elects unconditionally.

Are you being deliberately obscurantist?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Salvation is by faith. Faith is the gift of God.

Correction. Salvation is the gift of God. If you are using the word "faith" as a noun, then I will agree that faith is a gift. It's the gift we need to believe in to be saved.

The action of believing is NOT a gift. It's man's response to God's grace.

God does not give that gift based on any work of ours. Therefore God bestows that gift unconditionally. Therefore God elects unconditionally.

What God elects unconditionally is service. He has chosen/elected ALL believers unconditionally to serve Him.

Are you being deliberately obscurantist?

Are you having a problem understanding the truth of election?

I have asked for any verse that tells us that God elects people to salvation. Do you have any?

 

[lesliedellow]

"I will agree that faith is a gift. It's the gift we need to believe in to be saved. The action of believing is NOT a gift."

The word translated “faith” in the NT is πιστις, which the 28th edition of the Nestle Aland Greek New Testament defines as: “faith, trust, belief.”

According to you, I can believe (verb) that the Moon is a quarter of a million miles from Earth, without holding the belief (noun) that the Moon is a quarter of a million miles from Earth. Now I know that you desperately want to avoid believing what the Bible says, but your obscurantism is getting ridiculous.

I have nothing more to say on this subject.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The word translated “faith” in the NT is πιστις, which the 28th edition of the Nestle Aland Greek New Testament defines as: “faith, trust, belief.”

All of these words are nouns. They refer to WHAT we believe in.

According to you, I can believe (verb) that the Moon is a quarter of a million miles from Earth, without holding the belief (noun) that the Moon is a quarter of a million miles from Earth.

No, I do NOT believe such contradictory nonsense.

So, please explain how you came to this conclusion.

Now I know that you desperately want to avoid believing what the Bible says

You couldn't be any farther from the truth.

but your obscurantism is getting ridiculous.

Where do you get your inaccurate words from?

I have nothing more to say on this subject.

Since you have totally misunderstood me and mischaracterize me, that would be a good idea.

But, just to summarize, before you go, you still haven't provided any verse that teaches that God elects people for salvation.

Because there aren't any.