Election Integrity--Voters reject same-day voter registration and universal mail vote

grasping the after wind

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"From what you can see"? I have not got that at all. I see individuals attempt to defraud by voting for other people.

Everything else that has been brought before the court (after a certain insane poor loser lost) has been unworthy of consideration but JUUUUUUST enough to maintain suspicion from those who want him to be right.

I am unconcerned with Trump being right or wrong about anything. Unlike some people, I am not obsessed with him or in constant need to examine whatever he says or does. Frankly I am annoyed by the purely emotional arguments of both his adoring a fans and his demonizing opponents. What does concern me is the integrity of the election process. Making sure that only legal votes are counted is important. Making it easier to cheat by adding more and more ways one might be able to insert corruption into the system is not the direction I would be taking. The recent trend has been to make voting less secure rather than more so using Covid as an excuse.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Interesting analogy. But not necessarily apt.
I'd say more, if you walk into a room and everyone in there is drinking a nice up of tea and chatting about the local cricket match, but no one was convicted of murdering them, did they get murdered?

You really haven't answered my question by claiming the analogy was not apt enough for you . If one of those tea drinkers had murdered someone in front of the other tea drinkers I assume they would have noticed it. A dead body , who is perhaps a murdered person, is a bit more noticeable than the evidence of voter fraud as the authorities investigating murders have not decided that they won't take the presence of the dead body as evidence that murder might have committed unless the courts rule that because dead bodies are piling up in massive enough numbers to warrant it suggesting that there must be some murdering going on is silly.

If you suggest the only method to determine whether voter fraud occurs is for courts to convict people of voter fraud then wouldn't it follow that law enforcement ought to have proper tools by which to supply evidence to the courts? I find waiting to see if courts convict someone of a crime before determining whether the crime exists or not to be a strange way to go about things bjt if that is your criterion so be it.

The situation within the U.S. in enforcing, or in not being concerned too much with trying to enforce, voter law seems to assume the crime is not being perpetrated and leaves it up to what amounts to an honor system for voting in many states. That attitude toward criminal enforcement policy seems to apply no where else in our system. Everywhere else, we assume , since there is after all a law making something a crime, that the crime is being committed somewhere by someone ( why else bother having a law against it?) . We put in place various and numerous ways to detect the commission of all other crimes. Even crimes we, unfortunately, decide not to prosecute based upon a political calculation or upon who has committed the crime and their political connections . If we simply assume those in the room are drinking tea because they said so, they could all be drinking vodka and we would never know because we find it is too unseemly to check inside their cups to find out.
 
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Valletta

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Successful convictions. Much like every other crime.

To assume it's a problem without data to back it up is textbook paranoia....or just an effort to make voting more difficult
Violations of election laws are well documented. Prosecutions have been nil.
 
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Semper-Fi

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LeafByNiggle

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The evidence shows that Maricopa County
was flooded with thousands of illicit ballots.

Opinions like the ones you quoted in the NY Post, or anywhere, really, are just opinions. They are not evidence. Also, "illicit" in this context does not mean "fraudulent". It could be something as simple as an honest mistake by the voter like signing incorrectly.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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Oh, you mean the report written by the on-again, off-again Senate audit liaison, who was locked out of access to the audit by the Arizona Senate? The Arizona legislature does not support his conclusions. They amount to not much more than just another editorial, and hence are not evidence. He is contradicted by members of his own party.
 
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The Barbarian

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miamited

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The NY Post reports election results: Ballot measures to loosen voting rules are big losers in New York election
Good for New Yorkers! Education about the integrity of elections seems to have reached the people. Various methods that allow easy cheating have been rejected around the country.

Hi @Valletta

I'm certainly in agreement that same day registration likely slows down the process of counting votes. People are aware of upcoming elections and I don't think it particularly onerous to require that they register to participate in a particular election at least a few days before the election. This provides time for the elections office to verify the voter's information.

As far as universal mail in balloting, if that means what I think it means, I am also in agreement that people should have to request a mail-in ballot. However, I believe that such a request also must be made several days or weeks before the actual election and that they needn't give a 'reason' for wanting a mail-in ballot. Again to allow time for the elections office to verify and mail out the ballot. To also allow the elections office to flag all those who requested mail-in ballots so that if they do present at an election site, someone will ask them about their mail-in ballot and what happened to it.

However, I also fully realize that if a particular state or jurisdiction doesn't handle their election process the way that I think it should be handled, doesn't make their election results false or invalid, so long as they do have plans and processes in place to prevent double voting or unauthorized people returning the universally mailed ballots. So far, all indications are that the people have been pretty responsible, even in states where such practices as these questioned in New York have been in place, to only vote once and that the person to whom the mail-in ballot was sent, was in fact the person who filled it out and returned it. I think there have only been a handful of problematic ballots and they have been addressed.

What I find troubling is that some, not all, of the changes that are being considered do have some negative effect on some of the population being able to vote quickly and easily so that their voices are also heard. In my state of South Carolina, mail-in balloting is legal. However, to request a mail-in ballot one must present themselves to the elections office at least a couple of weeks before the election to make the request and their identification is verified at that time. They are then mailed a ballot to their home address and are expected to fill it out and mail it back in time to be received on or before election day.

I went in about 45 days before the election and received my ballot 3-4 days later and filled it out and dropped it in the drop box at the county elections office at least 2 weeks before the election. I then received notification that my ballot had been received about a week after I put it in the mail. But again, that's only how South Carolina handles mail-in balloting and each state is responsible for their own processes and procedures as regards voting laws and requirements. So states that do it differently are neither operating illegally nor necessarily allowing unqualified people to vote...according to that states definition of qualified voters.

From constitutioncenter.org:
“The constitutional rights, powers, and privileges of establishing voter qualifications, including voter registration requirements, are incidents of state sovereignty protected by Article I, Section 2 of the Constitution, the Tenth Amendment, and the Seventeenth Amendment. This power includes the power to obtain information the states deem necessary to assess eligibility or voter registration applicants, and to enforce voter qualifications. A mere oath without concrete evidence of citizenship…does not suffice.”

So, let's all keep in mind that voter requirements and eligibility are not some federal jurisdiction. Such processes and requirements are state ruled and many states have different rules. That doesn't make any state's methods illegal or unqualified and until the federal government decides to take over the jurisdiction of elections, then that is how it will be. Personally, I think the process has worked fine over the last few hundred years and am satisfied, so far, that there hasn't ever been enough improper or illegal voting to have made any difference in any of the national elections. Local elections in all the various states and jurisdictions across the country aren't really within my purview and so I have no directive in those.

Some local jurisdictions have elected positions for say, police chief or sheriff or county clerk, etc. Some have these as appointed positions. So long as the majority of the people of the jurisdiction are satisfied in their particular process, I'm fine with it.

God bless,
Ted
 
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miamited

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Hi @Valletta

Violations of election laws are well documented. Prosecutions have been nil.

Yea, that's just not a true statement. Yes, violations of election laws are well documented, but the number of such violations is miniscule as regards the vote tally, and has never been shown to have made any difference in a national election. People have been prosecuted for violations of election laws.

Listen, if you're going to believe the conspiracist's claims regarding the election process, please be prepared to defend them. In the last election there has not been a single case of proven election fraud beyond the very, very rare example of some individual attempting to vote more than once. This idea that so many seem to have latched onto, that election fraud was massive and certainly enough to change the presidential ticket outcome, has been repeatedly and fully debunked by people with a whole lot more knowledge and experience in election processes and procedures than either you or I.

While I'm sure you won't listen to me, I am compelled to say again, that what you are believing is a lie!

God bless,
Ted
 
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Valletta

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Hi @Valletta



Yea, that's just not a true statement. Yes, violations of election laws are well documented, but the number of such violations is miniscule as regards the vote tally, and has never been shown to have made any difference in a national election. People have been prosecuted for violations of election laws.

Listen, if you're going to believe the conspiracist's claims regarding the election process, please be prepared to defend them. In the last election there has not been a single case of proven election fraud beyond the very, very rare example of some individual attempting to vote more than once. This idea that so many seem to have latched onto, that election fraud was massive and certainly enough to change the presidential ticket outcome, has been repeatedly and fully debunked by people with a whole lot more knowledge and experience in election processes and procedures than either you or I.

While I'm sure you won't listen to me, I am compelled to say again, that what you are believing is a lie!

God bless,
Ted
Miniscule? To the contrary, the illegal votes were quite significant, by far enough to change results in many elections. The lack of chain of custody has caused great concern for future elections. Conspiracies? Aren't you one of those who fell for the Russia Russia Russia conspiracy hoax? As to what happened in the last election, we have had one full forensic audit of one county in the entire United States, and that revealed many problems. Until there is transparency it is a big mistake for any U.S. citizen to come to a conclusion about government actions in any area. Where there is resistance to transparency and accountability it is wise to take note.
 
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miamited

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Hi @Valletta

Aren't you one of those who fell for the Russia Russia Russia conspiracy hoax?

No, I wasn't really aware of it until very late in the game.

Until there is transparency it is a big mistake for any U.S. citizen to come to a conclusion about government actions in any area.

And so why do you. You seem to have pretty much accepted that there was fairly rampant problems with an election that, despite your claims, haven't been proven at all. All that came out of the Arizona audit was a couple of minor recommendations for changes that 'might' improve our elections processes going forward. There was nothing of any substance whatsoever, that there was any malfeasance in the counting or collecting of votes for that election.

However, I'm sure you've read different reporting than I have. I'd be happy to peruse anything that you think might be supportive of your claims.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Semper-Fi

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miamited

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Hi @Semper-Fi

Most of that seems to be just data entry errors by the elections office. Not any work on the part of voters or some cabal against Trump that tried to 'fix' the vote. I'm sure that there are often data entry errors and yes, absolutely, those should be corrected. But they aren't the kinds of things that we have to drum up a whole new set of laws for. People just need to be more careful in entering the data and perhaps the elections office needs to come up with a 'second verifier' system where someone else looks over the data as it is entered to catch such 'typo' errors.

I can't say exactly how it would have happened, but for a batch to input twice, must mean that either two people were working with the same batches or that a single person entered a batch, then got distracted, and went back and put in the same batch again.

I don't know what they use to count the votes, but obviously, if votes are not counted properly, as to the total, someone needs to look at that process and fix the process. Again, no need to change a whole bunch of laws concerning the actual people who vote, when the problem seems to more the people responsible for counting the vote.

None of what's in that article shows any evidence of fraud, just human error. I wouldn't doubt that there isn't some data entry or human error in pretty much every national election that's ever been held. What the Trumpites are pushing is a cry over fraud. None of what's in this article comes close to proving any such thing any more than the 60 dismissed court cases; the stack of affidavits that were supposed to be the 'Kraken' to destroy the election; the now dead and gone expensive audit of one Arizona county, etc. etc. etc.

Oh, and who can forget the millions of data bytes that Mike Lindell told us was going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt and reinstate Trump to his rightful place. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Valletta

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That's hitting the nail on the head, especially:
"This development provides yet the latest example of the chaos controlling the November 2020 election—and the corrupt media’s refusal to care." Taxpayers are on the hook for such sham government audits and here it took a private citizen to reveal the shocking errors. We need transparency and accountability, every state in the nation should have a full forensic audit so problems can be identified and fixed before the next election.
 
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miamited

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That's hitting the nail on the head, especially:
"This development provides yet the latest example of the chaos controlling the November 2020 election—and the corrupt media’s refusal to care." Taxpayers are on the hook for such sham government audits and here it took a private citizen to reveal the shocking errors. We need transparency and accountability, every state in the nation should have a full forensic audit so problems can be identified and fixed before the next election.

Hi @Valletta

Personally, I think 'shocking errors' is a bit much. All we have here is normal human error. It may have amounted to a couple of hundred votes not counted properly and I'm fairly confident that if we were to take second looks at all of the national elections, certainly over the last 30 years, we would find evidences of such minor errors. Even Arizona found some small degree of miscount.

In Concord NH there was a recent problem where a 'folding machine' caused several miscounts. In Detroit in the 2016 election they found that some 80 voting machines had malfunctioned, resulting in miscounts of some 59% of precincts. Vote tabulation machines have often malfunctioned in ways that have temporarily caused miscounts. They get corrected and the votes are retabulated. Someone at a keyboard typing in data entry may tab to the wrong line or reverse numbers, but none of this is tantamount to 'shocking' or 'fraud'.

Folks, we're all human and we all make mistakes. I can't imagine that there's ever been an election covering some 300 million people where there weren't some glitches that may have incorrectly tallied some votes. However, nothin on any grand scale, and so far, when corrected, there hasn't been a single change to any precinct or county or state jurisdiction's win decision.

It's really time to let it rest. Let's accept the election and move on and in four years, now three, we will get to do it all over again. It's just the way the nation has operated for a number of years and I think it's sad to see so many people now crying sour grapes with their teeth on edge over something that, so far, has just been things that happen in pretty much any election.

Nothing...NOTHING!!!!, it's now been over a year, has come to light that proves that this last election wasn't likely as well run as any previous election.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Valletta

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Hi @Valletta

Personally, I think 'shocking errors' is a bit much. All we have here is normal human error. It may have amounted to a couple of hundred votes not counted properly and I'm fairly confident that if we were to take second looks at all of the national elections, certainly over the last 30 years, we would find evidences of such minor errors. Even Arizona found some small degree of miscount.

In Concord NH there was a recent problem where a 'folding machine' caused several miscounts. In Detroit in the 2016 election they found that some 80 voting machines had malfunctioned, resulting in miscounts of some 59% of precincts. Vote tabulation machines have often malfunctioned in ways that have temporarily caused miscounts. They get corrected and the votes are retabulated. Someone at a keyboard typing in data entry may tab to the wrong line or reverse numbers, but none of this is tantamount to 'shocking' or 'fraud'.

Folks, we're all human and we all make mistakes. I can't imagine that there's ever been an election covering some 300 million people where there weren't some glitches that may have incorrectly tallied some votes. However, nothin on any grand scale, and so far, when corrected, there hasn't been a single change to any precinct or county or state jurisdiction's win decision.

It's really time to let it rest. Let's accept the election and move on and in four years, now three, we will get to do it all over again. It's just the way the nation has operated for a number of years and I think it's sad to see so many people now crying sour grapes with their teeth on edge over something that, so far, has just been things that happen in pretty much any election.

Nothing...NOTHING!!!!, it's now been over a year, has come to light that proves that this last election wasn't likely as well run as any previous election.

God bless,
Ted
Georgia was the state where election officials told numerous lies and also fooled auditor into leaving.
It took a private citizen to show just the huge number of categories in which errors were located.
That's not an acceptable audit, the auditors need to be fired and a full forensic audit needs to be performed.
 
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miamited

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Georgia was the state where election officials told numerous lies and also fooled auditor into leaving.
It took a private citizen to show just the huge number of categories in which errors were located.
That's not an acceptable audit, the auditors need to be fired and a full forensic audit needs to be performed.

Hi @Valletta

Could be. I'm not sure how they're counting these 'inconsistencies, but I don't count 36 in the article. It seems they list off a few, perhaps half a dozen. I find it difficult to keep track of how they're tabulating the inconsistencies and I don't find that there are 36 reported. Knowing how these issues are generally reported, what they're going to do in this article is list just a few of the more egregious errors. Meaning that any remaining are less problematic than the ones chosen to be reported.

However, I stick by my original claim that none of these errors point to fraud. Merely errors. None of them point to malfeasance of individual or blocks of voters, but some incompetence in 'how' the local elections office might record the votes and thus result in small errors in counting.

There is nothing that I see in this report that's going to be corrected by any of the laws that some of the states have jumped at passing to limit mail-in balloting or other methods of collecting ballots such as drop boxes. Other than some obvious clerical errors, there really doesn't seem to be much to see here, but these errors should of course be corrected by adopting or changing different procedures in tabulating votes.

The article makes mention of the 500 miscounted votes being able to change the Florida election some 20 years ago and that's certainly correct. But it doesn't have any bearing on the outcome of the election in question.

I do understand that there is a segment of society that thinks every one and every thing should be perfect, but that's a difficult metric to meet when dealing with so many people working so quickly to achieve a vote count with so many votes to count in a fairly short time. People make mistakes. From what I've seen, all of these 36 inconsistencies, or as they refer to it, categories of inconsistencies are all matters to be dealt with within the local elections offices and have nothing whatsoever to do with voters making some attempt to vote fraudulently.

I'm confident that you likely see it differently and you're welcome to understand things as you choose to understand them.

I am curious as to what 'lies' the elections officials told? Any chance you'd bring me up to date on that?

God bless,
Ted
 
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Valletta

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Hi @Valletta

Could be. I'm not sure how they're counting these 'inconsistencies, but I don't count 36 in the article. It seems they list off a few, perhaps half a dozen. I find it difficult to keep track of how they're tabulating the inconsistencies and I don't find that there are 36 reported. Knowing how these issues are generally reported, what they're going to do in this article is list just a few of the more egregious errors. Meaning that any remaining are less problematic than the ones chosen to be reported.

However, I stick by my original claim that none of these errors point to fraud. Merely errors. None of them point to malfeasance of individual or blocks of voters, but some incompetence in 'how' the local elections office might record the votes and thus result in small errors in counting.

There is nothing that I see in this report that's going to be corrected by any of the laws that some of the states have jumped at passing to limit mail-in balloting or other methods of collecting ballots such as drop boxes. Other than some obvious clerical errors, there really doesn't seem to be much to see here, but these errors should of course be corrected by adopting or changing different procedures in tabulating votes.

The article makes mention of the 500 miscounted votes being able to change the Florida election some 20 years ago and that's certainly correct. But it doesn't have any bearing on the outcome of the election in question.

I do understand that there is a segment of society that thinks every one and every thing should be perfect, but that's a difficult metric to meet when dealing with so many people working so quickly to achieve a vote count with so many votes to count in a fairly short time. People make mistakes. From what I've seen, all of these 36 inconsistencies, or as they refer to it, categories of inconsistencies are all matters to be dealt with within the local elections offices and have nothing whatsoever to do with voters making some attempt to vote fraudulently.

I'm confident that you likely see it differently and you're welcome to understand things as you choose to understand them.

I am curious as to what 'lies' the elections officials told? Any chance you'd bring me up to date on that?

God bless,
Ted
You have come to the conclusion that we are only talking about human error and no wrongdoing--before any proper investigation has taken place. This despite the fact that we have seen substantial dishonesty and a monumental effort by Democrats to stop and hinder investigations.
 
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