Election and evangelism

[GodsGrace101]

Plenty more where that came from:

A Free Will Perspective on Romans 9 and Predestination

 

[GodsGrace101]

Seriously? I just provided historical proof, and why is the WCF relevant for a Calvinist?!? Presbyterians ARE Calvinists, WCF is a Presbyterian Confession of Faith dating way back. I could quote many different sources to prove the point, even John Calvin himself from the book "The Bondage and Liberation of the Will" or from Jonathan Edwards book "The Freedom of the Will" or countless others. Do some research beforehand please and thank you.

If we do our own research, what do we need you for?
Discussion is discussion. You don't send someone to do research --- such as that long pasted post you sent me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What you describe is not God choosing at all, rather man choosing and God honoring the sovereign choice of man. John 3:16 has to be one of the most misinterpreted verses in all of Scripture. People think the word "world" means every human being on the planet, and with that by implication that Christ died for every human being on the planet. But that would be incorrect. Using the 1828 Webster's Dictionary for the English transliteration from the Greek, we can see how many different meanings the term can have:

WORLD, n.
1. The universe; the whole system of created globes or vast bodies of matter.
2. The earth; the terraqueous globe; sometimes called the lower world.
3. The heavens; as when we speak of the heavenly world, or upper world.
4. System of beings; or the orbs which occupy space, and all the beings which inhabit them. Heb 11. God--hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds. Heb 1.
5. Present state of existence; as while we are in the world.
Behold, these are the ungodly who prosper in the world. Psa 73.
6. A secular life. By the world we sometimes understand the things of this world, its pleasures and interests. A great part of mankind are more anxious to enjoy the world to than secure divine favor.
7. Public life, or society; as banished from the world.
8. Business or trouble of life. [From this world-wearied flesh.]
9. A great multitude or quantity; as a world of business; a world of charms.
10. Mankind; people in general; in an indefinite sense. Let the world see your fortitude.
Whose disposition, all the world well knows--
11. Course of life. He begins the world with little property, but with many friends.
12. Universal empire. [This through the east just vengeance hurld, and lost poor Antony the world.]
13. The customs and manners of men; the practice of life. A knowledge of the world is necessary for a man of business; it is essential to politeness.
14. All the world contains.
Had I a thousand worlds, I would give them all for one year more to devote to God.
15. The principal nations or countries of the earth. Alexander conquered the world.
16. The Roman empire.
17. A large tract of country; a wide compass of things.
18. The inhabitants of the earth; the whole human race.
19. The carnal state or corruption of the earth; as the present evil world; the course of this world. Gal 1. Eph 2.
20. The ungodly part of the world. [I pray not for the world, but for them that thou hast given men. John 17.]
21. Time; as in the phrase, world without end.
22. A collection of wonders.
In the world, in possibility. [All the precaution in the world would not save him.]

In the context of Scripture taking into account Jewish thought and background, the word "world" carries an offensive meaning to the Jews, because it includes both Jews and Gentiles, and other context from the same Gospel (example John 10:11-16 ) narrows that meaning further. Even the immediate context of "whosoever" limits the scope of application.

Nice try but I am a Presbyterian, and we do believe in what is called "common grace", though I think it is a poorly worded term, I agree with the concept. There is no salvation in natural theology however, but in a sense all of life is grace, and if grace then love.

Perhaps you could take that question up with Judas, and ask him why he was born, for what purpose?

World does not mean world
All does not mean all
Whosoever does not mean whosoever...

Words cannot mean what they SIMPLY mean if one wants to be a believe of Calvin.

Much easier to be a believer of the bible than of a man.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Plenty more where that came from:

A Free Will Perspective on Romans 9 and Predestination

I could spend all day quoting public domain commentaries opposed to the perspective you quote from, I could do the same with Scripture, but most will pass on walls and walls of text, so I'll pass.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I could spend all day quoting public domain commentaries opposed to the perspective you quote from, I could do the same with Scripture, but most will pass on walls and walls of text, so I'll pass.

You started...

Do you not care to discuss free will?
Is it because you cannot deny that free will is throughout the entire new testament and old testament?

Of course we could do the same with scripture. What are we here for?

I maintain you are not properly understanding scripture that is very easily understood because you prefer to believe some concepts a man came up with. The bible, taken as a whole, proves that God loves the WHOLE WORLD, ALL HIS CREATION and wishes all of us to be saved, but we will not be because of our FREE WILL CHOICE to not accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

World does not mean world
All does not mean all, Whosoever does not mean whosoever...Words cannot mean what they SIMPLY mean if one wants to be a believe of Calvin. Much easier to be a believer of the bible than of a man.

LOL I noticed you refuse to even engage the questions and arguments I presented. Instead you want to insult (again) suggesting I follow the man John Calvin, which is ridiculous ad hom. So whether the words are in Greek or English, they do have a range of meaning, and context guides the meaning of them. Usually the word "all" means a subset of a whole, as in "all of the elect", or all as in "from every nation, tribe, and tongue". Because if taken at face value, the implications are indefensible and absurd.

Here is a prime example:

Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed."

If we interpret this in the same way as John 3:16, the Indians across the ocean and everyone else would be taxed, and such a conclusion would be literally absurd.

 

[GodsGrace101]

LOL I noticed you refuse to even engage the questions and arguments I presented. Instead you want to insult (again) suggesting I follow the man John Calvin, which is ridiculous ad hom. So whether the words are in Greek or English, they do have a range of meaning, and context guides the meaning of them. Usually the word "all" means a subset of a whole, as in "all of the elect", or all as in "from every nation, tribe, and tongue". Because if taken at face value, the implications are indefensible and absurd.

Here is a prime example:

Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed."

If we interpret this in the same way as John 3:16, the Indians across the ocean and everyone else would be taxed, and such a conclusion would be literally absurd.

So, according to your understanding of the word WORLD,
God only loved the Hebrews, Israeilites and Jews?

Jesus knew what He was talking about.
When HE said God loved the whole world, HE meant the whole world. NOT only the known world of that time. Jesus knew the world consisted of MORE than the known world by those peoples.

What does 2 Peter 3:9 mean?
God desires ALL to come to repentance. Does this mean that God desires only the Jews to come to repentance?

Please rethink.

 

[GodsGrace101]

LOL I noticed you refuse to even engage the questions and arguments I presented. Instead you want to insult (again) suggesting I follow the man John Calvin, which is ridiculous ad hom. So whether the words are in Greek or English, they do have a range of meaning, and context guides the meaning of them. Usually the word "all" means a subset of a whole, as in "all of the elect", or all as in "from every nation, tribe, and tongue". Because if taken at face value, the implications are indefensible and absurd.

Here is a prime example:

Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed."

If we interpret this in the same way as John 3:16, the Indians across the ocean and everyone else would be taxed, and such a conclusion would be literally absurd.

BTW, I'm sure all those reading along know by now that I don't insult persons, I engage in discussion.
If you care to pursue the argument of free will, which takes care of 3 of the 5 tulip arguments, I'm willing.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So, according to your understanding of the word WORLD, God only loved the Hebrews, Israeilites and Jews?

Nice try, but if you had actually read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I mentioned Jews and Gentiles, which in a nutshell is all races of men.

Jesus knew what He was talking about.
When HE said God loved the whole world, HE meant the whole world. NOT only the known world of that time. Jesus knew the world consisted of MORE than the known world by those peoples.

It is a general love, like the pleasure God took in Creation calling it "good", but the context of "whosoever" is important to the broader message.

What does 2 Peter 3:9 mean?
God desires ALL to come to repentance. Does this mean that God desires only the Jews to come to repentance? Please rethink.

To save time, I'll quote John Gill from his exposition of the entire Bible:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,.... The Syriac version reads in the plural, "his promises", any of his promises; though the words seem rather to regard the particular promise of Christ's coming, either to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, of which coming there was a promise made, and is often referred to by Christ, and his apostles; see Mr 9:1

Heb 10:37; and it now being upwards of thirty years since it was given out, some men began to charge God with slackness and dilatoriness; whereas the true reason of the delay of it was, that there might be time for the gathering in of his elect among them by his angels, or apostles and ministers, sent into the several parts of Judea, that so none of them might perish, but be brought to faith and repentance; and thus as the time of Christ's coming was prolonged more than was thought it would, so when the days of afflictions were come, they were shortened also for these elect's sake: or this promise regards the second coming of Christ, to judge the quick and dead at the last day, of which the former was a prelude, presage, and pledge; that Christ would come again, and appear a second time in person, was promised by himself, and often spoken of by his apostles; and many of the primitive Christians thought it would be very soon, and which might be occasioned by the hints that were given of his coming in the other sense. Now this being deferred longer than was expected, the scoffers or mockers take upon them to charge the Lord with slackness in the fulfilment of his promise:

as some men count slackness; as if he had either changed his purpose, or had prolonged it beyond the appointed time, or was unmindful of his promise, and would never fulfil it; whereas he is in one mind, and none can turn him, nor will he delay the fulfilment of his promise beyond the set time; he has fixed a day for his coming, in which he will judge the world in righteousness, and he will keep it: he is not dilatory,

but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe 3:3; and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe 3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe 3:15, nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvellous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews, for Peter was a Jew, and they were Jews he wrote to; and then the sense is, that the delay of Christ's coming is not owing to any slackness in him, but to his longsuffering to his elect among the Jews, being unwilling that any of that number among them should perish, but that all of them repent of their sins, and believe in him; and therefore he waits till their conversion is over, when a nation shall be born at once, and they that have pierced him look on him and mourn, and so all Israel shall be saved; or rather of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation. And upon account of these the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and take his chosen ones to himself. The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews {f}, esteemed by them very ancient.

"God prolongs or defers his anger with men; and one day, which is a thousand years, is fixed, besides the seventy years he delivered to David the king.--And he does not judge man by his evil works which he continually does, for if so, the world would not stand; but the holy blessed God defers his anger with the righteous, and the wicked, that they may return, by perfect repentance, and be established in this world, and in the world to come.''

And it is an observation of theirs {g}, that when God is said to be "longsuffering", it is not written ארך אף, but ארך אפים, intimating, that he is longsuffering both to the righteous and the wicked; but then he bears with the latter, for the sake of the former: compare with this passage Re 6:9;

not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy, and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation.

But that all should come to repentance; not legal, but evangelical, without which all must perish; and which all God's elect stand in need of, as well as others, being equally sinners; and which they cannot come to of themselves, and therefore he not only calls them to it, in his word, and by his spirit and grace, but bestows it upon them; he has exalted Christ at his own right hand, to give it to them; and repentance is a grant from him, a free gift of his grace; and the Spirit is sent down into their hearts to work it in them, to take away the stony heart, and give an heart of flesh; without which, whatever time and space may be given, or means afforded, even the most awful judgments, the greatest mercies, and the most powerful ministry, will be of no avail."

{f} Zohar in Gen. fol. 83. 3. {g} T. Hieros, Taanioth, fol. 65. 2. T. Bab. Bava Kama, fol. 50. 2.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

You started...

Do you not care to discuss free will?
Is it because you cannot deny that free will is throughout the entire new testament and old testament?

Of course we could do the same with scripture. What are we here for?

I have discussed it, and replied to your accusation that I deny it, and I gave my specific position, while calling you out to provide biblical support, to which you posted a couple of Scriptures with the word "choose" or "choice" which say's nothing about whether those choices are "free" or not. Further I went on to explain how the "nature" of a sentient being effects choices. So I leave free will with this, a man cannot serve two masters, a man is either a slave to satan or a slave to Christ, a will is either bound by sin, or free by Christ.

 

[frater_domus]

Those things that are secret are not only above our head, they are unknown. But everything God wanted us to know about Him is written in His word.

Unconditional election cannot be correct if God loves all of His creation, His most important creation---man.

God is love and He put love into us.
God has a free will and He put free will into us.

If you believe in free will, you cannot believe in unconditional election, since its teaching is that God picks whom He will save and we have nothing to say about it.

Fair enough. But how would you interpret Acts 13:48 then? The order of first ordained, the believed seems to point in that direction, no?

 

[RDKirk]

PERSONAL Evangelism TODAY stems from Matthew 28...the Great Commisssion GIVEN also to 11 apostles.

If you'll notice, the scripture is explicit in each case that Jesus called only the 11 to receive the Great Commission, not to everyone who would later be in the Upper Room to receive the Holy Spirit, not even everyone He'd shown Himself to. He chose a selection from the election.

 

[RDKirk]

Those things that are secret are not only above our head, they are unknown. But everything God wanted us to know about Him is written in His word.

Unconditional election cannot be correct if God loves all of His creation, His most important creation---man.

God is love and He put love into us.
God has a free will and He put free will into us.

If you believe in free will, you cannot believe in unconditional election, since its teaching is that God picks whom He will save and we have nothing to say about it.

Well, scripture actually explicitly speaks of election more than once.

Scripture does not explicitly speak of free will at all. In fact, scripture denies free will.

So if you make it a binary either/or proposition, election would have to be it.

 

[MDC]

I have discussed it, and replied to your accusation that I deny it, and I gave my specific position, while calling you out to provide biblical support, to which you posted a couple of Scriptures with the word "choose" or "choice" which say's nothing about whether those choices are "free" or not. Further I went on to explain how the "nature" of a sentient being effects choices. So I leave free will with this, a man cannot serve two masters, a man is either a slave to satan or a slave to Christ, a will is either bound by sin, or free by Christ.

You have provided more than enough truth. The more truth that is shown her, only hardens her further in her deception

 

[Ron Gurley]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-true-doctrine-of-free-will-biblical-examples.8011505/

The elect are all saved believers. Matthew 24:31

God FORE-KNOWS all...irrevocably PRE-DESTINES nothing.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Matthew 28 applies to all truly saved believers.

Matthew 24:14
This "gospel of the kingdom" shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Acts 14:7
and there they continued to preach the gospel.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”

 

[Ron Gurley]

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

 

[GodsGrace101]

Nice try, but if you had actually read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I mentioned Jews and Gentiles, which in a nutshell is all races of men.

It is a general love, like the pleasure God took in Creation calling it "good", but the context of "whosoever" is important to the broader message.

To save time, I'll quote John Gill from his exposition of the entire Bible:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,.... The Syriac version reads in the plural, "his promises", any of his promises; though the words seem rather to regard the particular promise of Christ's coming, either to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, of which coming there was a promise made, and is often referred to by Christ, and his apostles; see Mr 9:1

Heb 10:37; and it now being upwards of thirty years since it was given out, some men began to charge God with slackness and dilatoriness; whereas the true reason of the delay of it was, that there might be time for the gathering in of his elect among them by his angels, or apostles and ministers, sent into the several parts of Judea, that so none of them might perish, but be brought to faith and repentance; and thus as the time of Christ's coming was prolonged more than was thought it would, so when the days of afflictions were come, they were shortened also for these elect's sake: or this promise regards the second coming of Christ, to judge the quick and dead at the last day, of which the former was a prelude, presage, and pledge; that Christ would come again, and appear a second time in person, was promised by himself, and often spoken of by his apostles; and many of the primitive Christians thought it would be very soon, and which might be occasioned by the hints that were given of his coming in the other sense. Now this being deferred longer than was expected, the scoffers or mockers take upon them to charge the Lord with slackness in the fulfilment of his promise:

as some men count slackness; as if he had either changed his purpose, or had prolonged it beyond the appointed time, or was unmindful of his promise, and would never fulfil it; whereas he is in one mind, and none can turn him, nor will he delay the fulfilment of his promise beyond the set time; he has fixed a day for his coming, in which he will judge the world in righteousness, and he will keep it: he is not dilatory,

but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe 3:3; and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe 3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe 3:15, nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvellous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews, for Peter was a Jew, and they were Jews he wrote to; and then the sense is, that the delay of Christ's coming is not owing to any slackness in him, but to his longsuffering to his elect among the Jews, being unwilling that any of that number among them should perish, but that all of them repent of their sins, and believe in him; and therefore he waits till their conversion is over, when a nation shall be born at once, and they that have pierced him look on him and mourn, and so all Israel shall be saved; or rather of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation. And upon account of these the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and take his chosen ones to himself. The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews {f}, esteemed by them very ancient.

"God prolongs or defers his anger with men; and one day, which is a thousand years, is fixed, besides the seventy years he delivered to David the king.--And he does not judge man by his evil works which he continually does, for if so, the world would not stand; but the holy blessed God defers his anger with the righteous, and the wicked, that they may return, by perfect repentance, and be established in this world, and in the world to come.''

And it is an observation of theirs {g}, that when God is said to be "longsuffering", it is not written ארך אף, but ארך אפים, intimating, that he is longsuffering both to the righteous and the wicked; but then he bears with the latter, for the sake of the former: compare with this passage Re 6:9;

not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy, and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation.

But that all should come to repentance; not legal, but evangelical, without which all must perish; and which all God's elect stand in need of, as well as others, being equally sinners; and which they cannot come to of themselves, and therefore he not only calls them to it, in his word, and by his spirit and grace, but bestows it upon them; he has exalted Christ at his own right hand, to give it to them; and repentance is a grant from him, a free gift of his grace; and the Spirit is sent down into their hearts to work it in them, to take away the stony heart, and give an heart of flesh; without which, whatever time and space may be given, or means afforded, even the most awful judgments, the greatest mercies, and the most powerful ministry, will be of no avail."

{f} Zohar in Gen. fol. 83. 3. {g} T. Hieros, Taanioth, fol. 65. 2. T. Bab. Bava Kama, fol. 50. 2.

Why "nice try"? You're the one who said that whole world does not mean the whole world. Now above you say that it DOES mean the whole world because Jews and gentiles comprise everyone. Confusing.

You yourself said that It is possible for ME to now go and find some commentator that does NOT agree with John Gill.

Am I speaking to YOU or to commentators?

Maybe YOU could explain this verse for me since you don't believe in free will:

Philemon 1:14
New American Standard Bible
but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Why does Paul speak of free will if it does not exist?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have discussed it, and replied to your accusation that I deny it, and I gave my specific position, while calling you out to provide biblical support, to which you posted a couple of Scriptures with the word "choose" or "choice" which say's nothing about whether those choices are "free" or not. Further I went on to explain how the "nature" of a sentient being effects choices. So I leave free will with this, a man cannot serve two masters, a man is either a slave to satan or a slave to Christ, a will is either bound by sin, or free by Christ.

We have a will. It is free.
We have a free will.
Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat or not eat the fruit.

Genesis 2:16-17
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

I asked you to show me where this free will was lost. You did not do so. You cannot do so because we still have free will to this day.

When free will is discussed biblically it means that we have the free will to make a moral choice.

Isaiah 55:6-7
6Seek the LORD while He may be found;
Call upon Him while He is near.

7Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the LORD,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

God has made Himself be known to man,,,
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

It is now up to us to seek the Lord and return to Him and He will surely pardon us. WE must turn to the Lord, He does not force Himself upon us.

Galatians 5:13
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Again, yes, we are given a CHOICE, if you believe choice has nothing to do with free will, you might want to explain it for those of us who understand that if we can choose, then we DO have free will.