Election and evangelism

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
part II
cont'd

As to John Calvin, you do seem to see the bright side of both men...




Michael Servetus exchanged many letters with Calvin until he was denounced by Calvin and executed.


The turning point in Calvin's fortunes occurred when Michael Servetus, a fugitive from ecclesiastical authorities, appeared in Geneva on 13 August 1553. Servetus was a Spanish physician and Protestant theologian who boldly criticised the doctrine of the Trinityand paedobaptism (infant baptism).[57] In July 1530 he disputed with Johannes Oecolampadius in Basel and was eventually expelled. He went to Strasbourg, where he published a pamphlet against the Trinity. Bucer publicly refuted it and asked Servetus to leave. After returning to Basel, Servetus published Two Books of Dialogues on the Trinity (Latin: Dialogorum de Trinitate libri duo) which caused a sensation among Reformers and Catholics alike. The Inquisition in Spain ordered his arrest.[58]

Calvin and Servetus were first brought into contact in 1546 through a common acquaintance, Jean Frellon of Lyon; they exchanged letters debating doctrine; Calvin used a pseudonym as
Charles d' Espeville; Servetus left his unsigned.[59] Eventually, Calvin lost patience and refused to respond; by this time Servetus had written around thirty letters to Calvin. Calvin was particularly outraged when Servetus sent him a copy of the Institutes of the Christian Religion heavily annotated with arguments pointing to errors in the book. When Servetus mentioned that he would come to Geneva, "Espeville" (Calvin) wrote a letter to Farel on 13 February 1546 noting that if Servetus were to come, he would not assure him safe conduct: "for if he came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive."[60]

In 1553 Servetus published Christianismi Restitutio (English: The Restoration of Christianity), in which he rejected the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and the concept of predestination. In the same year, Calvin's representative, Guillaume de Trie, sent letters alerting the French Inquisition to Servetus.[61] Calling him a "Spanish-Portuguese", suspecting and accusing him[62] of his recently proved Jewish converso origin.[63][64][65] De Trie wrote down that "his proper name is Michael Servetus, but he currently calls himself Villeneuve, practising medicine. He stayed for some time in Lyon, and now he is living in Vienne."[66] When the inquisitor-general of France learned that Servetus was hiding in Vienne, according to Calvin under an assumed name, he contacted Cardinal François de Tournon, the secretary of the archbishop of Lyon, to take up the matter. Servetus was arrested and taken in for questioning. His letters to Calvin were presented as evidence of heresy, but he denied having written them, and later said he was not sure it was his handwriting. He said, after swearing before the holy gospel, that "he was Michel De Villeneuve Doctor in Medicine about 42 years old, native of Tudela of the kingdom of Navarre, a city under the obedience to the Emperor".[67] The following day he said: "..although he was not Servetus he assumed the person of Servet for debating with Calvin".[68] He managed to escape from prison, and the Catholic authorities sentenced him in absentia to death by slow burning.[69]

On his way to Italy, Servetus stopped in Geneva to visit "d'Espeville", where he was recognized and arrested. Calvin's secretary, Nicholas de la Fontaine, composed a list of accusations that was submitted before the court. The prosecutor was Philibert Berthelier, a member of a libertine family and son of a famous Geneva patriot, and the sessions were led by Pierre Tissot, Perrin's brother-in-law. The libertines allowed the trial to drag on in an attempt to harass Calvin. The difficulty in using Servetus as a weapon against Calvin was that the heretical reputation of Servetus was widespread and most of the cities in Europe were observing and awaiting the outcome of the trial. This posed a dilemma for the libertines, so on 21 August the council decided to write to other Swiss cities for their opinions, thus mitigating their own responsibility for the final decision.[70]While waiting for the responses, the council also asked Servetus if he preferred to be judged in Vienne or in Geneva. He begged to stay in Geneva. On 20 October the replies from Zurich, Basel, Bern, and Schaffhausen were read and the council condemned Servetus as a heretic. The following day he was sentenced to burning at the stake, the same sentence as in Vienne. Some scholars claim that Calvin and other ministers asked that he be beheaded instead of burnt, knowing that burning at the stake was the only legal recourse.[71] This plea was refused and on 27 October, Servetus was burnt alive at the Plateau of Champel at the edge of Geneva.[72]


source: John Calvin - Wikipedia
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Technically, all people deserve to go to hell, for God is just and all others fall short. If just one person gets saved, it is only according to His mercy. All God does is for His glory, even if we don't get it. Divine things go above our head, so to speak.
Maybe they go above SOME heads.
Why would God have revealed Himself to us if divine things go "above our heads?"
Romans 1:20
Hebrews 1:1-2

If we all deserve to go to hell, why did God create us?

Does God love the world He created or not?
John 3:16 tells me that God loves the entire world.
2 Peter 3:9 tells me that God is being patient with all of us, not wishing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God loves all men and wishes all to come to salvation, but of course we know that not all will accept God's condition -- which is to believe on the Lord Jesus.

Could you please post some scripture that shows God does NOT love His creation and does NOT wish all to be saved?
Thanks.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi AW
Jesus said the gate is narrow and few are those who find it.
Mathew 7:14

He also said; "many are called but few are chosen". (Matthew 22:14)

Every Christian does not believe in the doctrine of election and pre-destination the way that you believe it.

True, and I spent the first twenty eight years of my life not believing it in the way I came to believe it fifteen years ago.

We are elected, or chosen, by God based on our response to Him who draws all men to Himself. And our response must be to believe in Jesus who saves all those who wish to be saved.

Right but those who wish to be saved have already experienced the regenerating work of the Spirit to change their desires, to change the carnal mind which is enmity with God (Romans 8:7), to give discernment (1 Corinthians 2:14), to remove the heart of stone (Eze 36:26), to desire light rather than darkness (John 3:19, John 1:5). Further the Scriptural basis is on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16). So it is based on the free will of God from eternity (Ephesians 1:4).

God knows the eternal destination of every individual. Because God knows something does not cause it to happen. The knowledge is not the causation. Men make their own decisions, God only knows what those decisions will be, that does not stop you from making your own decision.

True, knowledge in itself is powerless to save, the cause is the Holy Spirit, the work of the Spirit bringing life to where the death in sins and trespasses formerly reigned. True, people make their decisions, but through the work of the Spirit, their decision to repent and follow Christ is made. A person cannot boast or lay claim to their choosing Christ, without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).

I ask, what is Jesus speaking about in: Matt 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." What is he referring to that is "impossible"?

You make it a choice of God trumping man's free will or man trumping God's free will. It's not easy to reconcile God's SOVEREIGNTY with man's free will. However, it is far easier to reconcile that than to make peace and believe in a God that creates some humans for heaven and creates some humans for hell and bases this on absolutely nothing. How is that a just God when the bible teaches that God is just?

It is not based on nothing, it is based on God who has mercy, it is based on the fact that God would be perfectly just to save nobody, because all have sinned, all fall short of His glory, there are none who do good in His sight (Romans 3:10-18). But we like to think that we're not that bad, we really do not deserve punishment from God, we're only human, and humans make mistakes, hardly worth eternal separation from God, but we would be thinking wrong.

Listen to the Bible:

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory."

He is the Potter and we are the clay, what more can we say? I suppose we can continue arguing, but what is the point, what can we possibly gain, when Scripture makes it clear?

The God I serve does not tie His own hands.
God is almighty and sovereign. He directs the football game and it will end the way He so wishes and wills it to. But during each play, each individual will decide HOW to play. The world is in God's hands,,,this is no reason for Him to be an unjust and unloving God and send some to hell through no fault of their own.

But that's just it, we're all to blame, we all have fault. Only with an inflated and non-biblical view of man can we think a person is without fault...the only person to have walked the earth without fault is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Our God is loving and just and I do trust Him, and prefer that simplicity when it comes right down to it, to rest in the knowledge that He knows the future and He's got the whole world in His hands.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He also said; "many are called but few are chosen". (Matthew 22:14)

True, and I spent the first twenty eight years of my life not believing it in the way I came to believe it fifteen years ago.

Right but those who wish to be saved have already experienced the regenerating work of the Spirit to change their desires, to change the carnal mind which is enmity with God (Romans 8:7), to give discernment (1 Corinthians 2:14), to remove the heart of stone (Eze 36:26), to desire light rather than darkness (John 3:19, John 1:5). Further the Scriptural basis is on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16). So it is based on the free will of God from eternity (Ephesians 1:4).

True, knowledge in itself is powerless to save, the cause is the Holy Spirit, the work of the Spirit bringing life to where the death in sins and trespasses formerly reigned. True, people make their decisions, but through the work of the Spirit, their decision to repent and follow Christ is made. A person cannot boast or lay claim to their choosing Christ, without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).

I ask, what is Jesus speaking about in: Matt 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." What is he referring to that is "impossible"?

It is not based on nothing, it is based on God who has mercy, it is based on the fact that God would be perfectly just to save nobody, because all have sinned, all fall short of His glory, there are none who do good in His sight (Romans 3:10-18). But we like to think that we're not that bad, we really do not deserve punishment from God, we're only human, and humans make mistakes, hardly worth eternal separation from God, but we would be thinking wrong.

Listen to the Bible:

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory."

He is the Potter and we are the clay, what more can we say? I suppose we can continue arguing, but what is the point, what can we possibly gain, when Scripture makes it clear?

But that's just it, we're all to blame, we all have fault. Only with an inflated and non-biblical view of man can we think a person is without fault...the only person to have walked the earth without fault is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Our God is loving and just and I do trust Him, and prefer that simplicity when it comes right down to it, to rest in the knowledge that He knows the future and He's got the whole world in His hands.
AW
Far be it for me to try to convince you otherwise; I would like you to know that I'm writing for those reading along, although I do find it difficult to understand how anyone can come to your conclusion.

I find 3 big problems here which I'll list. I can also go over your verses but it's 10 pm here and it'll have to wait till tomorrow morning. I'll just say now that Paul is not speaking about individual persons or individual salvation...he's speaking about the nation of Israel and how God could choose to reveal Himself in the way that He wishes. Also, I could say that, yes, sometimes God does use persons for special purposes, but we're not a bunch of puppets on a stage either.

1. If one believes God chooses the salvation of the person, how could a person that believes he is born again actually be sure of it since it was not him that made the choice?

2. If Jesus died only for the "elected", why was His death necessary at all? WHY did He have to atone for anyone's sins?
God could have just saved them and since God picks those who will be saved based on nothing, why would their sins even matter? God is, after all, responsible for the sins.

3. How do we even explain the fall of man in Genesis? God told Adam not to eat of the fruit. This is God giving Adam the choice to eat it or not. If God caused Adam to eat the fruit, then why did He even create man? This would make God even MORE of a mean God than just His choosing who will and will not be saved!

It seems to me that most of the doctrine of "tulip" depends on the free will of man. The free will of man is spoken of throughout the bible. Can you show me that free will is NOT in the bible?
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Michael Servetus exchanged many letters with Calvin until he was denounced by Calvin and executed.

SNIP!!

I actually own a few works that give the true historical account, from the original source documents. The following article gives a true assessment:

Calvin and Servetus
by William Wileman

"A calm and impartial view of this sad subject has been reserved for this place, and for a chapter1 of its own. The immense advantage of having been able to consult and to weigh the evidence of the principal writers – certainly not fewer than forty – about the case of Servetus, besides several biographies of the man himself, will greatly aid the writer.

It is very common to hear the remark, ‘What about Servetus?’ or, ‘Who burned Servetus?’ There are three kinds of persons who thus flippantly ask a question of this nature. First, the Roman Catholics, who may judge it to be an unanswerable taunt to a Protestant. Second, those who are not in accord with the great doctrines of grace, as taught by Paul and Calvin, and embraced and loved by thousands still. Then there is a third kind of persons who can only be described as ill-informed. It is always desirable, and often useful, to really know something of what one professes to know.

I shall narrow the inquiry at the outset by saying that all Roman Catholics are ‘out of court.’ They burn heretics on principle, avowedly. This is openly taught by them; it is in the margin of their Bible; and it is even their boast that they do so. And, moreover, they condemned Servetus to be burned.

Those who misunderstand or misrepresent the doctrines of grace call for pity more than blame when they charge the death of Servetus upon those views of divine truth known as Calvinistic. Perhaps a little instruction would be of great value to such. It is very desirable to have clear ideas of what it is we are trying to understand. In most disputes this would make a clear pathway for thought and argument. Most controversies are more about terms than principles.

The third sort of persons are plainly incompetent to take up this case, for the simple reason that they know nothing whatever about it. Pressed for their reasons, they have to confess that they never at any time read a line about the matter.

The duty of the historian is not to plead, but to narrate facts. I shall do this as impartially as possible. One writer need not be imitated (W. H. Drummond, D.D.), who is not ashamed to disfigure his title-page: Life of Michael Servetus, who was entrapped, imprisoned, and burned by John Calvin. Less scurrilous, but equally prejudiced, is Dr. R. Willis. It is a weak case that needs the aid of ink mixed with abusive gall.

The simplest method of arranging my material will be to ask and to answer three questions. First, why was Servetus burned? Second, who burned him? Third, what part in the matter was taken by John Calvin?

Michael Servetus was born at Villanueva, in 1509. After a liberal education, he studied medicine, and anticipated Harvey in the discovery of the circulation of the blood. It appears that he had a lively genius, but was unstable, erratic, and weak. In 1530 he published a book On the Errors of the Trinity. His views need not be given here; one specimen will suffice to give an idea of them. He said that the doctrine of the Trinity was ‘a three-headed Cerberus, a dream of Augustine, and an invention of the devil.’ The book, however, on which his trial was based was his Restitutio Christianismi. Only two copies of this are known to exist, and both are out of England. I have seen a copy of the reprint of 1790. Servetus sent the manuscript of this to Calvin for his perusal, and a lengthy correspondence took place between them, extending from 1546 to 1548. Of this Calvin says: ‘When he was at Lyons he sent me three questions to answer. He thought to entrap me. That my answer did not satisfy him I am not surprised.’ To Servetus himself he wrote: ‘I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity.’

And now occurs what foundation there is on which is built the accusation against Calvin. It occurs in his well-known letter to Farel, dated February 13th, 1546.

Servetus wrote to me a short time ago, and sent a huge volume of his dreamings and pompous triflings with his letter. I was to find among them wonderful things, and such as I had never before seen; and if I wished, he would himself come. But I am by no means inclined to be responsible for him; and if he come, I will never allow him, supposing my influence worth anything, to depart alive.

There lived at Geneva at this time a Frenchman of Lyons named William Trie; and he had a relative at Lyons named Arneys, a Roman Catholic. After the publication of this book by Servetus, Trie wrote to his friend Arneys a letter in which he said that it was base for Protestants to be burned who really believed in Christ while such a man as Servetus should be permitted to live to publish his vile errors. Arneys placed this letter before the Inquisition at Lyons, and Cardinal Tournon arrested Servetus at once. Without giving the mass of details, it will be sufficient to say that Servetus escaped from prison one night by a pretext. His trial, however, proceeded in his absence; and on June 17th, 1552, the sentence of death, namely, ‘to be burned alive, at a slow fire, till his body he reduced to a cinder,’ was passed upon him by the Inquisition. On the same day, his effigy was burned, with five bales of his books.

After wandering for a time, he suddenly turned up in Geneva in July, and was arrested by the Council, which was at this time opposed to Calvin. What Calvin desired from Servetus was his recantation: ‘Would that we could have obtained a retractation from Servetus, as we did from Gentilis’. The thirty-eight articles of accusation were drawn up by Calvin. Two examinations took place. At the second of these, Servetus persisted in one of his errors, namely, that all things, ‘even this footstool,’ are the substance of God. After further examinations, these articles, with the replies of the accused man, were sent to the churches of Zurich, Berne, Basle, and Schaffhausen, with a request for their opinion. Farel’s reply is worthy of record: ‘It will be a wonder if that man, suffering death, should at the time turn to the Lord, dying only one death, whereas he has deserved to die a thousand times.’ In another letter, written from Neuchatel, September 8th, 1553, Farel says: ‘Your desire to mitigate the rigour of punishment is the service of a friend to one who is your mortal enemy. But I beseech you so to act as that no one shall hereafter seek with impunity to publish novel doctrines, and to embroil us all as Servetus has done.’

All these circumstances prove that his trial was lengthy, deliberate, and careful; and quite in harmony with the requirements of the age. All the Reformers who were consulted approved of the sentence that was pronounced. At the last stage of the trial, the discussion lasted for three days. The ‘lesser Council’ were unanimous; and the majority of the Great Council were in favour of capital punishment, and so decided on the last day. Sentence of death by fire was given on October 26th, to be carried into effect on the following day.

And now one man alone stands forth to plead for a mitigation of the sentence, namely, that another form of death be substituted for the stake. That one man was John Calvin. He interceded most earnestly with the judges for this, but in vain. Both Farel, who came to Geneva for the purpose, and Calvin, prayed with the unhappy man, and expressed themselves tenderly towards him. Both of them pleaded with the Council for the substitution of a milder mode of death; but the syndics were inflexible. The historian Paul Henry writes of this matter:

Calvin here appears in his real character; and a nearer consideration of the proceeding, examined from the point of view furnished by the age in which he lived, will completely exonerate him from all blame. His conduct was not determined by personal feeling; it was the consequence of a struggle which this great man had carried on for years against tendencies to a corruption of doctrine which threatened the church with ruin. Every age must be judged according to its prevailing laws; and Calvin cannot be fairly accused of any greater offence than that with which we may be charged for punishing certain crimes with death.

The main facts therefore may now be summarized thus:

1. That Servetus was guilty of blasphemy, of a kind and degree which is still punishable here in England by imprisonment.

2. That his sentence was in accordance with the spirit of the age.

3. That he had been sentenced to the same punishment by the Inquisition at Vienne.

4. That the sentence was pronounced by the Councils of Geneva, Calvin having no power either to condemn or to save him.

5. That Calvin and others visited the unhappy man in his last hours, treated him with much kindness, and did all they could to have the sentence mitigated.


Three hundred and fifty years after the death of Servetus, a ‘monument of expiation’ was erected on the spot where he suffered death at Champel, near Geneva. It bears the date of October 27th, 1903; but the unveiling ceremony was postponed until November 1st. On one side of this monument are recorded the birth and death of Servetus. On the front is this inscription:

Dutiful and grateful followers of Calvin our great Reformer, yet condemning an error which was that of his age, and strongly attached to liberty of conscience, according to the true principles of the Reformation and of the Gospel, we have erected this expiatory monument. October 27th, 1903.

Should the Roman Catholic Church desire to follow this example, and erect ‘monuments of expiation,’ let her first build one in Paris, and unveil it on August 24th (the date of the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre of the Huguenots – Ed.) And doubtless sites would gladly be given for the same purpose in Oxford, Coventry, Maidstone, Lewes, and other places in England. And should Romanists desire the alteration or abrogation of any oath, instead of tampering with the Coronation Oath of Great Britain, let them first annul the oath taken by every bishop at his consecration that he will pursue heretics to the death. All persecution on account of religion and conscience is a violation of the spirit of the gospel, and repugnant to the principles of true liberty.

Notes
  1. This is from Chapter 15 of William Wileman’s (1848-1944) John Calvin: His Life, His Teaching and His Influence (London: Robert Banks & Son, ca. 1909).
Taken from Peace and Truth 2003:3; this was originally posted in Banner ‘Articles’ in October 2003.

www.sgu.org.uk

So glad we set that record straight, and hopefully we won't need to discuss further about what you claim to not intend to discuss but continue to discuss anyway.
 
Upvote 0

faroukfarouk

Fading curmudgeon
Apr 29, 2009
35,901
17,177
Canada
✟279,058.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It seems to me that most of the doctrine of "tulip" depends on the free will of man. The free will of man is spoken of throughout the bible. Can you show me that free will is NOT in the bible?

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1.18) Evidently a verse not made in North America! :)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0

frater_domus

Faith is all that matters.
Site Supporter
Feb 7, 2018
919
548
32
Berlin
✟186,302.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Humans are a problem. Each party is convinced of their own right until it spirals out of control and breeds little more contempt for the other. People quote passages relevant to their point while ignoring the opposing references. We all need a break and a little more Jesus, I think :D
 
Upvote 0

frater_domus

Faith is all that matters.
Site Supporter
Feb 7, 2018
919
548
32
Berlin
✟186,302.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Maybe they go above SOME heads.
Why would God have revealed Himself to us if divine things go "above our heads?"
Romans 1:20
Hebrews 1:1-2

If we all deserve to go to hell, why did God create us?

Does God love the world He created or not?
John 3:16 tells me that God loves the entire world.
2 Peter 3:9 tells me that God is being patient with all of us, not wishing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God loves all men and wishes all to come to salvation, but of course we know that not all will accept God's condition -- which is to believe on the Lord Jesus.

Could you please post some scripture that shows God does NOT love His creation and does NOT wish all to be saved?
Thanks.

First off, I do not propagate unconditional election. I am discussing it, wanting to know more because this topic is fairly new to me.

Second, heavenly things go above out head, period. This is why God needs to reveal some things. He did not reveal all, however, and those things that are secret are still above our heads.

Thirdly, I will not say that God does not love His creation, because it is not true. This is precisely why I am discussing this. Unconditional election has passages that support it and passages that contradict it. However, sound doctrine has no scriptural contradiction and as such our understanding of it is flawed.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He also said; "many are called but few are chosen". (Matthew 22:14)
Many are called: God so loved the world --- everyone.
But few are chosen. This is correct. Upon what qualities are we chosen? Belief in Jesus and a life worthy of Him. If you notice in the Marriage Feast the one thrown out was not wearing the proper clothing. God did NOT arbitrarily remove him from the marriage feast -- the guest was not dressed properly. God calls and His choosing depends on our response.

True, and I spent the first twenty eight years of my life not believing it in the way I came to believe it fifteen years ago.
This is personal, but I do wonder what made you stop believing that God loves all His creation.
Romans 5:8
1 John 4:10

Right but those who wish to be saved have already experienced the regenerating work of the Spirit to change their desires, to change the carnal mind which is enmity with God (Romans 8:7), to give discernment (1 Corinthians 2:14), to remove the heart of stone (Eze 36:26), to desire light rather than darkness (John 3:19, John 1:5). Further the Scriptural basis is on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16). So it is based on the free will of God from eternity (Ephesians 1:4).
How does God have mercy, Romans 9:16, if He creates some humans to go to hell through no fault of their own?

1 Corinthians 2:14
The Holy Spirit gives us discernment AFTER we become born again. As verse 15 states, the natural man cannot discern the things of God.
See Galatians 6:15-16
Circumcision is nothing.
Uncircumcision is nothing,
But the new creation is something.
verse 16 and those that will walk by this rule, peace and joy to them.
We walk by the rule and then we have peace and joy. Discernment comes by following God's rules and obeying the spirit. First we walk, and then we have peace. Not the other way around.

Ezekiel 36:26
Did this work out?
No. This is the reason the New Covenant was necessary.
God tried different ways and until the NC nothing worked.
Ezekiel is speaking about the N.C. as is Jeremiah 31:33.
God is speaking about the N.C. Not about automatically changing man's heart, which can only be accomplished AFTER one is voluntarily saved. The OC was written on stone, the NC will be written on our hearts. This is all this verse means.

True, knowledge in itself is powerless to save, the cause is the Holy Spirit, the work of the Spirit bringing life to where the death in sins and trespasses formerly reigned. True, people make their decisions, but through the work of the Spirit, their decision to repent and follow Christ is made. A person cannot boast or lay claim to their choosing Christ, without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).
John 3:3
Jesus speaking: "....unless one is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."
First you are born again by believing, John 3:16, THEN you can see the Kingdom of God.
Ephesians 2:8 We are saved BY GRACE, Gods goodness, THROUGH FAITH, it is our response of FAITH that saves us.
God reveals Himself, we must answer with our faith. THEN we are saved.

I ask, what is Jesus speaking about in: Matt 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." What is he referring to that is "impossible"?
Salvation of course.
We cannot save ourselves.
Jesus died to save us.
Romans 6:23


It is not based on nothing, it is based on God who has mercy, it is based on the fact that God would be perfectly just to save nobody, because all have sinned, all fall short of His glory, there are none who do good in His sight (Romans 3:10-18). But we like to think that we're not that bad, we really do not deserve punishment from God, we're only human, and humans make mistakes, hardly worth eternal separation from God, but we would be thinking wrong.
We are bad. Adam, our representative disobeyed God.
But we are not totally depraved.
This is an argument unto itself and I don't have time to take it up right now.
I will say this, Total Depravity, the idea that man is so depraved as to be incapable of choosing to be saved, begins the whole argument of calvinism. That would be free will.
If you DO NOT believe in free will, then you can believe in total depravity.
If YOU DO believe in free will, then total depravity makes no sense, because I can choose to believe in God and be saved.

Listen to the Bible:

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory."

He is the Potter and we are the clay, what more can we say? I suppose we can continue arguing, but what is the point, what can we possibly gain, when Scripture makes it clear?



But that's just it, we're all to blame, we all have fault. Only with an inflated and non-biblical view of man can we think a person is without fault...the only person to have walked the earth without fault is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Our God is loving and just and I do trust Him, and prefer that simplicity when it comes right down to it, to rest in the knowledge that He knows the future and He's got the whole world in His hands.
[/QUOTE]
Who thinks they don't have faults?
If God is just, He will give to everyone the oppportunity to be saved. All your verses above have nothing to do with individual salvation but is speaking about the nation of Israel.

As to God's justice:

Acts 17:31
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Psalm 25:8

New International Version
Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.

Isaiah 61:8
New International Version
"For I, the LORD, love justice;

How is God a righteous and just God if He does not give to everyone the opportunity to be saved?[/QUOTE]
 
  • Like
Reactions: ToBeLoved
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
AW
Far be it for me to try to convince you otherwise; I would like you to know that I'm writing for those reading along, although I do find it difficult to understand how anyone can come to your conclusion.

Ditto.

I find 3 big problems here which I'll list. I can also go over your verses but it's 10 pm here and it'll have to wait till tomorrow morning. I'll just say now that Paul is not speaking about individual persons or individual salvation...he's speaking about the nation of Israel and how God could choose to reveal Himself in the way that He wishes.

The Apostle Paul destroys the bankrupt notion of God saving the entire nation of Israel in his arguments using circumcision.

Also, I could say that, yes, sometimes God does use persons for special purposes, but we're not a bunch of puppets on a stage either.

And there's the strawman puppet trope, as though it were true, as if it actually applied. Look up the word "compatibilism" in a philosophy dictionary. I am gonna pass at this point on the very long discussion regarding "free will" except to say that historically the Reformed Church has never denied it, rather it is defined differently, and the type denied is the libertarian version that Augustine rejected and wrote against in his writings against the Palagians.

1. If one believes God chooses the salvation of the person, how could a person that believes he is born again actually be sure of it since it was not him that made the choice?

Your question is framed in such a way as to embrace an "either or" fallacy when the correct and biblical answer is both. We love Him because He first love us, ie. "foreknew". So, God made the choice first before the foundation of the world, He also conditions our experiences that bring us to that moment in time, and our choice in it, is rather a response to the miraculous and gracious work of monergistic regeneration, wherein Christ makes us alive to Him, I think I went through details of this in a previous post.

2. If Jesus died only for the "elected", why was His death necessary at all? WHY did He have to atone for anyone's sins? God could have just saved them and since God picks those who will be saved based on nothing, why would their sins even matter? God is, after all, responsible for the sins.

If Jesus died for possibilities of salvation, does God even know who will choose? Is is possible nobody would choose Christ? What did the atonement actually accomplish? Can it even be said to be substitutionary? How can one say "Christ died for me" when it implies substitution? What you are left with is a means to boast. Why did you choose Christ and not your neighbor? Are you more humble? Wiser? Why did you respond and not the sinner sitting next to you on the pew?

3. How do we even explain the fall of man in Genesis? God told Adam not to eat of the fruit. This is God giving Adam the choice to eat it or not. If God caused Adam to eat the fruit, then why did He even create man? This would make God even MORE of a mean God than just His choosing who will and will not be saved!

It seems to me that most of the doctrine of "tulip" depends on the free will of man. The free will of man is spoken of throughout the bible. Can you show me that free will is NOT in the bible?

Your whole response is built upon an unfounded assumption that Calvinists deny "free will", when that is not the case, I will provide a small sample of historical proof:

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643-49)

Chapter IX: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matt 17:12; Jas 1:14; Deut 30:19; Isa 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; Jas 4:7†).

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Gen 1:26; Phil 2:13‡; Col 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Gen 2:16-17; 3:6).

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Tit 3:3-5).

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Col 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Phil 2:13; Rom 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Rev 21:27†).


Can you show me libertarian free will in the Bible? Can you show me "free will" in the Bible? The common concept of it has more in common with pagan philosophers than where the Bible touches on the subject, and not using the terminology of "free will". People read it into Scripture by their assumptions, the presuppositions they bring to Scripture when approaching Scripture. Pure and simple as that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Ditto.



The Apostle Paul destroys the bankrupt notion of God saving the entire nation of Israel in his arguments using circumcision.



And there's the strawman puppet trope, as though it were true, as if it actually applied. Look up the word "compatibilism" in a philosophy dictionary. I am gonna pass at this point on the very long discussion regarding "free will" except to say that historically the Reformed Church has never denied it, rather it is defined differently, and the type denied is the libertarian version that Augustine rejected and wrote against in his writings against the Palagians.



Your question is framed in such a way as to embrace an "either or" fallacy when the correct and biblical answer is both. We love Him because He first love us, ie. "foreknew". So, God made the choice first before the foundation of the world, He also conditions our experiences that bring us to that moment in time, and our choice in it, is rather a response to the miraculous and gracious work of monergistic regeneration, wherein Christ makes us alive to Him, I think I went through details of this in a previous post.



If Jesus died for possibilities of salvation, does God even know who will choose? Is is possible nobody would choose Christ? What did the atonement actually accomplish? Can it even be said to be substitutionary? How can one say "Christ died for me" when it implies substitution? What you are left with is a means to boast. Why did you choose Christ and not your neighbor? Are you more humble? Wiser? Why did you respond and not the sinner sitting next to you on the pew?



Your whole response is built upon an unfounded assumption that Calvinists deny "free will", when that is not the case, I will provide a small sample of historical proof:

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643-49)

Chapter IX: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matt 17:12; Jas 1:14; Deut 30:19; Isa 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; Jas 4:7†).

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Gen 1:26; Phil 2:13‡; Col 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Gen 2:16-17; 3:6).

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Tit 3:3-5).

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Col 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Phil 2:13; Rom 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Rev 21:27†).


Can you show me libertarian free will in the Bible? Can you show me "free will" in the Bible? The common concept of it has more in common with pagan philosophers than where the Bible touches on the subject, and not using the terminology of "free will". People read it into Scripture by their assumptions, the presuppositions they bring to Scripture when approaching Scripture. Pure and simple as that.
Calvinists do deny free will.

You haven’t been around the block enough times if you think they don’t.

Second, why do you think the Westminster Confession of Faith is relevant for a Calvinist?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Calvinists do deny free will.

You haven’t been around the block enough times if you think they don’t.

Second, why do you think the Westminster Confession of Faith is relevant for a Calvinist?

Seriously? I just provided historical proof, and why is the WCF relevant for a Calvinist?!? Presbyterians ARE Calvinists, WCF is a Presbyterian Confession of Faith dating way back. I could quote many different sources to prove the point, even John Calvin himself from the book "The Bondage and Liberation of the Will" or from Jonathan Edwards book "The Freedom of the Will" or countless others. Do some research beforehand please and thank you.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Many are called: God so loved the world --- everyone. But few are chosen. This is correct. Upon what qualities are we chosen? Belief in Jesus and a life worthy of Him. If you notice in the Marriage Feast the one thrown out was not wearing the proper clothing. God did NOT arbitrarily remove him from the marriage feast -- the guest was not dressed properly. God calls and His choosing depends on our response.

What you describe is not God choosing at all, rather man choosing and God honoring the sovereign choice of man. John 3:16 has to be one of the most misinterpreted verses in all of Scripture. People think the word "world" means every human being on the planet, and with that by implication that Christ died for every human being on the planet. But that would be incorrect. Using the 1828 Webster's Dictionary for the English transliteration from the Greek, we can see how many different meanings the term can have:

WORLD, n.
1. The universe; the whole system of created globes or vast bodies of matter.
2. The earth; the terraqueous globe; sometimes called the lower world.
3. The heavens; as when we speak of the heavenly world, or upper world.
4. System of beings; or the orbs which occupy space, and all the beings which inhabit them. Heb 11. God--hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds. Heb 1.
5. Present state of existence; as while we are in the world.
Behold, these are the ungodly who prosper in the world. Psa 73.
6. A secular life. By the world we sometimes understand the things of this world, its pleasures and interests. A great part of mankind are more anxious to enjoy the world to than secure divine favor.
7. Public life, or society; as banished from the world.
8. Business or trouble of life. [From this world-wearied flesh.]
9. A great multitude or quantity; as a world of business; a world of charms.
10. Mankind; people in general; in an indefinite sense. Let the world see your fortitude.
Whose disposition, all the world well knows--
11. Course of life. He begins the world with little property, but with many friends.
12. Universal empire. [This through the east just vengeance hurld, and lost poor Antony the world.]
13. The customs and manners of men; the practice of life. A knowledge of the world is necessary for a man of business; it is essential to politeness.
14. All the world contains.
Had I a thousand worlds, I would give them all for one year more to devote to God.
15. The principal nations or countries of the earth. Alexander conquered the world.
16. The Roman empire.
17. A large tract of country; a wide compass of things.
18. The inhabitants of the earth; the whole human race.
19. The carnal state or corruption of the earth; as the present evil world; the course of this world. Gal 1. Eph 2.
20. The ungodly part of the world. [I pray not for the world, but for them that thou hast given men. John 17.]
21. Time; as in the phrase, world without end.
22. A collection of wonders.
In the world, in possibility. [All the precaution in the world would not save him.]

In the context of Scripture taking into account Jewish thought and background, the word "world" carries an offensive meaning to the Jews, because it includes both Jews and Gentiles, and other context from the same Gospel (example John 10:11-16 ) narrows that meaning further. Even the immediate context of "whosoever" limits the scope of application.

This is personal, but I do wonder what made you stop believing that God loves all His creation. Romans 5:8 1 John 4:10

Nice try but I am a Presbyterian, and we do believe in what is called "common grace", though I think it is a poorly worded term, I agree with the concept. There is no salvation in natural theology however, but in a sense all of life is grace, and if grace then love.

How does God have mercy, Romans 9:16, if He creates some humans to go to hell through no fault of their own?

Perhaps you could take that question up with Judas, and ask him why he was born, for what purpose?
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Ezekiel 36:26 Did this work out? No. This is the reason the New Covenant was necessary. God tried different ways and until the NC nothing worked. Ezekiel is speaking about the N.C. as is Jeremiah 31:33. God is speaking about the N.C. Not about automatically changing man's heart, which can only be accomplished AFTER one is voluntarily saved. The OC was written on stone, the NC will be written on our hearts. This is all this verse means.

Yes it did "work out", the Atonement of Christ was not a plan B.

By contrast of your response, here is commentary from The Pulpit Commentary on Ezekiel 36:26

"Vers. 26, 27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. The third step in the progress of sanctifying Jehovah"s Name. (comp. Eze 11:19, where a similar promise is made, and Eze 18:31, where the new heart is represented as a thing Israel must make for herself) This antinomy frequently occurs in Scripture, which never shrinks from holding man responsible for the production of that, as e.g. faith, for which he is incompetent without the help of Divine grace.Besides the cleansing of her guilt and her restitution in consequence to Jehovah"s favor, Israel is promised such an inward renovation of her moral and spiritual disposition as to secure that she shall in future adhere to the worship and service of Jehovah. This change is described in a fourfold way.

(1) Negatively, as a removal of the old, stony, unsusceptible heart, which had remained impervious to all appeals and insertsible to all higher feelings. (Zec 7:12)

(2) Positively, as a new heart and a new spirit, called elsewhere "one heart" and "a heart of flesh". (Eze 11:19; Jer 32:39) "a heart toknow God". (Jer 24:7)

(3) Causally, its existence being traced to the indwelling of God"s Spirit, who writes God"s Law upon the new heart, and inclines it to a life of obedience thereto. (Jer 31:33)

(4) Practically, by its manifestation, walking in God"s statutes and keeping God s judgments. (Eze 11:20) The account here furnished of the moral and spiritual change proposed to be inwrought on Israel cot-responds exactly with that given in the New Testament of the regeneration of the individual soul. (Joh 3:3-8; Rom 8:2, Rom 8:5, Rom 8:9; Tit 3:5, Tit 3:6; 1Pe 1:22)

A new heart.
We are here introduced to one of those profound utterances in which the Old Testament anticipates some of the richest truths of the New. The grace here promised was doubtless given in all ages to those who truly repented and sought it. But reading these words in the light of the gospel, we are able to see much more clearly what is their eternal significance.

I THE ESSENCE OF SALVATION IS THE RENEWAL OF THE HEART. The commonest mistake is to ignore this most significant fact. People regard salvation too much as a change in the soul"s estate rather than a change in its very nature. But while there is a change of condition, and while the greatest possible external consequences flow from the redemption of souls, that redemption does not consist in these things; they are but of secondary importance. The primary fact is internal. To be saved from the visible fires of a material hell, and to be carried aloft to the tunable pleasures of a celestial Paradise, may satisfy the Mohammedan-minded Christian, but it will not fulfill the great thought of Christ. Hearts are wrong, foul, diseased. Men have false ideas, corrupt desires and affections, evil imaginations, or perhaps a blank deadness of soul. Here is the seat of the disease; here, then, the cure must begin. Sin is heart-disease; salvation is heart-renewal.

II THE OLD EVIL HEART IS OF STONE. A terrible and most significant description.
1. It is hard. It does not respond to the call of God; it neither perceives spiritual truth, nor feels Divine influences, nor responds to heavenly voices. It has no sympathy with God. It is inflexible and immobile.

2. It is cold. Not only does it not respond to the influences of God; in itself and in its new condition it is unfeeling. There is no glow of generous affection in the sinful heart.

3. It is dead. The heart is the most vital organ. For this part of the body to be petrified involves a fearful condition of utter death. The hands might be turned to stone, and yet the man might live. But if he bad a heart of stone he must be dead. Souls are "dead in trespasses and sin". (Eph 2:1) Men fear a future death, but the Bible teaches that there is a present death of godless souls.

4. It is unnatural. A heart of stone what can be more monstrous? Sin is all unnatural. It is contrary to nature not to have feelings of love for our heavenly Father.

III GOD GIVES A NEW HEART OF FLESH.

1. It is a new heart. There is no curing the old one. "Ye must be born again". (Joh 3:3) To be in Christ is to be a new creature." Thus Christ gives complete renewal. Now, the hope of the world lies in this great fact. We try to patch up the face of society, but it is mortifying at the core; and Christ goes at once to the root of the matter. With creative power he makes the heart afresh, i.e. he gives quite new thoughts, feelings, and desires. The most abandoned wrecks of society may take courage and believe that even they can be saved if this is the glorious work of Christ in souls.

2. It is a heart of flesh.

(1) Tender. The old coldness and hardness pass away. Pride, stubbornness, obstinacy, are broken down, the penitent soul is melted. The softening of the hardened spirit is an essential part of conversion.

(2) Sympathetic. The renewed heart readily answers to the call of God and to the joys and sorrows of men.

(3) Living. This new heart beats, It drives life-blood through the whole being. The fainting soul is invigorated. Energy springs from the new heart. It pulsates with the vigor of a glad, strong life.

(4) Natural. The heart is of flesh, not of some foreign angelic substance. Sin is monstrous, goodness natural. The true Christian is natural; he is intensely human. God"s work in the soul brings a man into close sympathy with his fellows. It restores true human nature.

Vers. 26-28The three elements of piety.

The Israelites were "profaning the Name" of Jehovah in the lands through which they were dispersed. But this could not be permitted to remain. For the sake of his own Divine Name, the sacredness of which was of such vital moment to mankind (see previous homily), God would work a gracious revolution (vers. 21-23). And what he would do is this:

1. He would work within their hearts an entire change of thought and feeling, removing their strong stubbornness and replacing it with a childlike sensibility.
2. He would thus lead them to live in purity and uprightness before the eyes of those among whom they dwelt. Thus would he magnify his holy Name.
3. Then he would restore them to the old relation which they had forfeited by their sin; they should be again his people, and he would be their God, dwelling among them and ruling over them in peace and righteousness. We have here the three constantly recurring elements of true piety.

I INWARD RENEWAL. (Ver. 26.) Consisting of:

1. Sensibility taking the place of indifference or stubborn rebelliousness. Instead of the "stony heart" is the "heart of flesh;" instead of an utter, brutish disregard of Divine claims or a perverse and froward determination to reject them, is the "new heart," the "new spirit" of openness of mind, willingness which ends in eagerness to learn of God, responsiveness of feeling when he speaks, tenderness of conscience under the spoken truth of Christ.

2. Humility taking the place of pride or careless unconcern; a sense of past sin and of present unworthiness; the inward conviction that God has not been remembered, reverenced, served, trusted, as he should have been, and that life has been stained with many errors, faults, shortcomings, transgressions; a spirit of true penitence and shame; a voice, not loud but deep, says within the soul, "I have sinned.

3. Consecration instead of selfishness. The heart turns away from selfishness and from worldliness toward God, toward the Divine Redeemer, whom it receives gladly and fully as the Savior of the soul, as the Sovereign of the life.

II OUTWARD RECTITUDE. "I will cause you to walk in my statutes," etc. (ver. 27). The obedience which springs from mere dread of penalty is of very small account; but that which proceeds from a loyal and a loving heart is worth everything. The Divine Son, who was also a Servant, could say, "I delight to do thy will; thy Law is within my heart." And when the new spirit or the new heart is within us, we can speak in the same strain. Our piety passes, with perfect naturalness, from the reverent thought to the right word; from the grateful feeling to the upright action, from the consecrated spirit to the devoted and useful life. We obey God"s word because we honor himself; we keep the commandments of Christ because we love our Lord. (Joh 14:15, Joh 14:21, Joh 14:23) If the Spirit of God be in us we shall bring forth the fruits of the Spirit. (Gal 5:22, Gal 5:23) Of the commandments of Christ, to which, by his own words or by those of his apostles, he has attached the greatest weight, as indispensable to the Christian life and as the condition of his acceptance, we must include purity, truthfulness, sobriety, honesty, reverence, love the love which forbears, which pities, which succors in time of need."

I figure why not, it's not like you're reading all of my responses anyway.

John 3:3 Jesus speaking: "....unless one is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." First you are born again by believing, John 3:16, THEN you can see the Kingdom of God. Ephesians 2:8 We are saved BY GRACE, Gods goodness, THROUGH FAITH, it is our response of FAITH that saves us. God reveals Himself, we must answer with our faith. THEN we are saved.

If everyone already has faith and able to use it to please God, why is it written in Scripture "without faith it is impossible to please him" (Hebrews 11:6) ? Your response would imply that we FIRST loved him (by choosing him with our faith), but Scripture tells us that it is the other way around, "he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). Further Scripture tells us that FAITH is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8), and the context is salvation, not a prior faith.

But we are not totally depraved.
This is an argument unto itself and I don't have time to take it up right now. I will say this, Total Depravity, the idea that man is so depraved as to be incapable of choosing to be saved, begins the whole argument of calvinism. That would be free will. If you DO NOT believe in free will, then you can believe in total depravity. If YOU DO believe in free will, then total depravity makes no sense, because I can choose to believe in God and be saved.

Per total depravity I will direct readers HERE. As for your "either or" fallacy, it leaves out "compatibilism" and important details, such as freedom within a nature, meaning that there is freedom of choices, but they are bound by nature of a being. This even applies to God, Scripture tells us as much, that it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18). Why is that? He would be contradicting His own nature, and He is certainly not a God of contradictions, He is pure and Holy complete and perfect, flawless.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
First off, I do not propagate unconditional election. I am discussing it, wanting to know more because this topic is fairly new to me.

Second, heavenly things go above out head, period. This is why God needs to reveal some things. He did not reveal all, however, and those things that are secret are still above our heads.

Thirdly, I will not say that God does not love His creation, because it is not true. This is precisely why I am discussing this. Unconditional election has passages that support it and passages that contradict it. However, sound doctrine has no scriptural contradiction and as such our understanding of it is flawed.
Those things that are secret are not only above our head, they are unknown. But everything God wanted us to know about Him is written in His word.

Unconditional election cannot be correct if God loves all of His creation, His most important creation---man.

God is love and He put love into us.
God has a free will and He put free will into us.

If you believe in free will, you cannot believe in unconditional election, since its teaching is that God picks whom He will save and we have nothing to say about it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ditto.

The Apostle Paul destroys the bankrupt notion of God saving the entire nation of Israel in his arguments using circumcision.

And there's the strawman puppet trope, as though it were true, as if it actually applied. Look up the word "compatibilism" in a philosophy dictionary. I am gonna pass at this point on the very long discussion regarding "free will" except to say that historically the Reformed Church has never denied it, rather it is defined differently, and the type denied is the libertarian version that Augustine rejected and wrote against in his writings against the Palagians.

Your question is framed in such a way as to embrace an "either or" fallacy when the correct and biblical answer is both. We love Him because He first love us, ie. "foreknew". So, God made the choice first before the foundation of the world, He also conditions our experiences that bring us to that moment in time, and our choice in it, is rather a response to the miraculous and gracious work of monergistic regeneration, wherein Christ makes us alive to Him, I think I went through details of this in a previous post.

If Jesus died for possibilities of salvation, does God even know who will choose? Is is possible nobody would choose Christ? What did the atonement actually accomplish? Can it even be said to be substitutionary? How can one say "Christ died for me" when it implies substitution? What you are left with is a means to boast. Why did you choose Christ and not your neighbor? Are you more humble? Wiser? Why did you respond and not the sinner sitting next to you on the pew?

Your whole response is built upon an unfounded assumption that Calvinists deny "free will", when that is not the case, I will provide a small sample of historical proof:

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643-49)

Chapter IX: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil (Matt 17:12; Jas 1:14; Deut 30:19; Isa 7:11-12†; John 5:40†; Jas 4:7†).

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God (Eccl 7:29; Gen 1:26; Phil 2:13‡; Col 3:10†); but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it (Gen 2:16-17; 3:6).

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation (Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44, 65†; 15:5): so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good (Rom 3:10, 12), and dead in sin (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13), is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto (John 6:44, 65; 3:3, 5-6†; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Tit 3:3-5).

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin (Col 1:13; John 8:34, 36; Rom 6:6-7†); and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good (Phil 2:13; Rom 6:18, 22); yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil (Gal 5:17; Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; 1 John 1:8†, 10).

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 24; Rev 21:27†).


Can you show me libertarian free will in the Bible? Can you show me "free will" in the Bible? The common concept of it has more in common with pagan philosophers than where the Bible touches on the subject, and not using the terminology of "free will". People read it into Scripture by their assumptions, the presuppositions they bring to Scripture when approaching Scripture. Pure and simple as that.
Since everything hinges on free will, why don't we concentrate on that.

God created us in His image. God has free will and also gave us free will. Free will as I'm using the words means that we have the full capability of coming to our own decisions regarding moral questions and also regarding our actions.
This free will can take into consideration outside forces, but it will be our will, after considering all, that determines what course we will take.

God gave to Adam and Eve the choice to eat or not eat of the fruit. Please show me from scripture when this choice was taken away from the human race.

In Deuteronomy 30:19 God puts before us death and life, the blessing and the curse. We are told to CHOOSE life so that we may live. Choosing requires free will.

Joshua 24:15
"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." NASB

Mathew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.


Being willing or unwilling requires that a choice be made.

Mathew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


Should I build my house on a rock or on sand?
This requires a decision -- a decision requires free will.

Free will is found in the entire bible and this cannot be denied.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes it did "work out", the Atonement of Christ was not a plan B.

By contrast of your response, here is commentary from The Pulpit Commentary on Ezekiel 36:26

"Vers. 26, 27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. The third step in the progress of sanctifying Jehovah"s Name. (comp. Eze 11:19, where a similar promise is made, and Eze 18:31, where the new heart is represented as a thing Israel must make for herself) This antinomy frequently occurs in Scripture, which never shrinks from holding man responsible for the production of that, as e.g. faith, for which he is incompetent without the help of Divine grace.Besides the cleansing of her guilt and her restitution in consequence to Jehovah"s favor, Israel is promised such an inward renovation of her moral and spiritual disposition as to secure that she shall in future adhere to the worship and service of Jehovah. This change is described in a fourfold way.

(1) Negatively, as a removal of the old, stony, unsusceptible heart, which had remained impervious to all appeals and insertsible to all higher feelings. (Zec 7:12)

(2) Positively, as a new heart and a new spirit, called elsewhere "one heart" and "a heart of flesh". (Eze 11:19; Jer 32:39) "a heart toknow God". (Jer 24:7)

(3) Causally, its existence being traced to the indwelling of God"s Spirit, who writes God"s Law upon the new heart, and inclines it to a life of obedience thereto. (Jer 31:33)

(4) Practically, by its manifestation, walking in God"s statutes and keeping God s judgments. (Eze 11:20) The account here furnished of the moral and spiritual change proposed to be inwrought on Israel cot-responds exactly with that given in the New Testament of the regeneration of the individual soul. (Joh 3:3-8; Rom 8:2, Rom 8:5, Rom 8:9; Tit 3:5, Tit 3:6; 1Pe 1:22)

A new heart.
We are here introduced to one of those profound utterances in which the Old Testament anticipates some of the richest truths of the New. The grace here promised was doubtless given in all ages to those who truly repented and sought it. But reading these words in the light of the gospel, we are able to see much more clearly what is their eternal significance.

I THE ESSENCE OF SALVATION IS THE RENEWAL OF THE HEART. The commonest mistake is to ignore this most significant fact. People regard salvation too much as a change in the soul"s estate rather than a change in its very nature. But while there is a change of condition, and while the greatest possible external consequences flow from the redemption of souls, that redemption does not consist in these things; they are but of secondary importance. The primary fact is internal. To be saved from the visible fires of a material hell, and to be carried aloft to the tunable pleasures of a celestial Paradise, may satisfy the Mohammedan-minded Christian, but it will not fulfill the great thought of Christ. Hearts are wrong, foul, diseased. Men have false ideas, corrupt desires and affections, evil imaginations, or perhaps a blank deadness of soul. Here is the seat of the disease; here, then, the cure must begin. Sin is heart-disease; salvation is heart-renewal.

II THE OLD EVIL HEART IS OF STONE. A terrible and most significant description.
1. It is hard. It does not respond to the call of God; it neither perceives spiritual truth, nor feels Divine influences, nor responds to heavenly voices. It has no sympathy with God. It is inflexible and immobile.

2. It is cold. Not only does it not respond to the influences of God; in itself and in its new condition it is unfeeling. There is no glow of generous affection in the sinful heart.

3. It is dead. The heart is the most vital organ. For this part of the body to be petrified involves a fearful condition of utter death. The hands might be turned to stone, and yet the man might live. But if he bad a heart of stone he must be dead. Souls are "dead in trespasses and sin". (Eph 2:1) Men fear a future death, but the Bible teaches that there is a present death of godless souls.

4. It is unnatural. A heart of stone what can be more monstrous? Sin is all unnatural. It is contrary to nature not to have feelings of love for our heavenly Father.

III GOD GIVES A NEW HEART OF FLESH.

1. It is a new heart. There is no curing the old one. "Ye must be born again". (Joh 3:3) To be in Christ is to be a new creature." Thus Christ gives complete renewal. Now, the hope of the world lies in this great fact. We try to patch up the face of society, but it is mortifying at the core; and Christ goes at once to the root of the matter. With creative power he makes the heart afresh, i.e. he gives quite new thoughts, feelings, and desires. The most abandoned wrecks of society may take courage and believe that even they can be saved if this is the glorious work of Christ in souls.

2. It is a heart of flesh.

(1) Tender. The old coldness and hardness pass away. Pride, stubbornness, obstinacy, are broken down, the penitent soul is melted. The softening of the hardened spirit is an essential part of conversion.

(2) Sympathetic. The renewed heart readily answers to the call of God and to the joys and sorrows of men.

(3) Living. This new heart beats, It drives life-blood through the whole being. The fainting soul is invigorated. Energy springs from the new heart. It pulsates with the vigor of a glad, strong life.

(4) Natural. The heart is of flesh, not of some foreign angelic substance. Sin is monstrous, goodness natural. The true Christian is natural; he is intensely human. God"s work in the soul brings a man into close sympathy with his fellows. It restores true human nature.

Vers. 26-28The three elements of piety.

The Israelites were "profaning the Name" of Jehovah in the lands through which they were dispersed. But this could not be permitted to remain. For the sake of his own Divine Name, the sacredness of which was of such vital moment to mankind (see previous homily), God would work a gracious revolution (vers. 21-23). And what he would do is this:

1. He would work within their hearts an entire change of thought and feeling, removing their strong stubbornness and replacing it with a childlike sensibility.
2. He would thus lead them to live in purity and uprightness before the eyes of those among whom they dwelt. Thus would he magnify his holy Name.
3. Then he would restore them to the old relation which they had forfeited by their sin; they should be again his people, and he would be their God, dwelling among them and ruling over them in peace and righteousness. We have here the three constantly recurring elements of true piety.

I INWARD RENEWAL. (Ver. 26.) Consisting of:

1. Sensibility taking the place of indifference or stubborn rebelliousness. Instead of the "stony heart" is the "heart of flesh;" instead of an utter, brutish disregard of Divine claims or a perverse and froward determination to reject them, is the "new heart," the "new spirit" of openness of mind, willingness which ends in eagerness to learn of God, responsiveness of feeling when he speaks, tenderness of conscience under the spoken truth of Christ.

2. Humility taking the place of pride or careless unconcern; a sense of past sin and of present unworthiness; the inward conviction that God has not been remembered, reverenced, served, trusted, as he should have been, and that life has been stained with many errors, faults, shortcomings, transgressions; a spirit of true penitence and shame; a voice, not loud but deep, says within the soul, "I have sinned.

3. Consecration instead of selfishness. The heart turns away from selfishness and from worldliness toward God, toward the Divine Redeemer, whom it receives gladly and fully as the Savior of the soul, as the Sovereign of the life.

II OUTWARD RECTITUDE. "I will cause you to walk in my statutes," etc. (ver. 27). The obedience which springs from mere dread of penalty is of very small account; but that which proceeds from a loyal and a loving heart is worth everything. The Divine Son, who was also a Servant, could say, "I delight to do thy will; thy Law is within my heart." And when the new spirit or the new heart is within us, we can speak in the same strain. Our piety passes, with perfect naturalness, from the reverent thought to the right word; from the grateful feeling to the upright action, from the consecrated spirit to the devoted and useful life. We obey God"s word because we honor himself; we keep the commandments of Christ because we love our Lord. (Joh 14:15, Joh 14:21, Joh 14:23) If the Spirit of God be in us we shall bring forth the fruits of the Spirit. (Gal 5:22, Gal 5:23) Of the commandments of Christ, to which, by his own words or by those of his apostles, he has attached the greatest weight, as indispensable to the Christian life and as the condition of his acceptance, we must include purity, truthfulness, sobriety, honesty, reverence, love the love which forbears, which pities, which succors in time of need."

I figure why not, it's not like you're reading all of my responses anyway.



If everyone already has faith and able to use it to please God, why is it written in Scripture "without faith it is impossible to please him" (Hebrews 11:6) ? Your response would imply that we FIRST loved him (by choosing him with our faith), but Scripture tells us that it is the other way around, "he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). Further Scripture tells us that FAITH is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8), and the context is salvation, not a prior faith.



Per total depravity I will direct readers HERE. As for your "either or" fallacy, it leaves out "compatibilism" and important details, such as freedom within a nature, meaning that there is freedom of choices, but they are bound by nature of a being. This even applies to God, Scripture tells us as much, that it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18). Why is that? He would be contradicting His own nature, and He is certainly not a God of contradictions, He is pure and Holy complete and perfect, flawless.
Oh. You want to copy and paste?
Let's look at Romans 9 to 11 so we could all understand why these chapters are NOT speaking about personal salvation but about the plan God had for Israel....

Part l
cont'd
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Part ll
Cont'd

Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1, and Romans 9 are texts commonly used by Calvinists to support the doctrine of predestined, irresistible, unconditional election unto salvation – that God chooses ahead of time who will be saved.

In Romans 8:29-30, Paul writes that those whom God “foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son…”

In Ephesians 1, Paul speaks of “the saints” (v. 1) as being chosen by God “before the foundation of the world” in order to be “holy and blameless before Him” (v. 4), and “predestined… to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself” (v. 5).

In Romans 9, Paul gives two examples of God choosing one person over another in a seemingly arbitrary way: Isaac instead of Ishmael (v. 7) and Jacob instead of Esau (v. 12-13). In both cases God chose one person over another, even before they had been born, before cheap jerseys they had done anything, and without their consent in the matter. So Paul writes in verse 16: “it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” And in verse 18: “He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.” Paul then uses the analogy of a potter and clay. If one asks “Why have you made me like this?” (v. 20) the response is “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?” (v. 21).

The Calvinist interpretation of these texts is that God chooses ahead of time who will be saved, and the people themselves have no say in the matter. This interpretation of the texts is not in harmony with the rest of the Bible. God is revealed in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16) and in the person of Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:9), who is the living Word of God (John 1:14, Revelation 19:13). Jesus dying on the cross “for the sins of the whole world” (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2) reveals that “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16) and that God “desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4, see also 2 Peter 3:9) and “takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked” (Ezekiel 33:11).

However, the picture of God we get from the Calvinist’s interpretation of Romans 9 is in fundamental conflict with this truth. The idea that God who does not give human beings a choice – but forces some to be saved and others to perish – directly contradicts both the character and will of God revealed in God’s Word. This dangerous doctrine undermines the need for evangelism and leads people to question their own salvation. If salvation is simply a cosmic lottery predetermined by God, and if salvation does not depend on my personal decision to believe, how do I know if I’m one of the lucky ones who God chose to save, and not one of the unlucky ones God chose to condemn? Even if I have assurance of my own salvation, how could I know that my family and friends will be saved, if salvation is predetermined and does not depend on their own decision to believe?

Furthermore, if God saves people simply by choosing them ahead of time without their consent and without requiring them to make a decision to believe, then it is difficult to explain why the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was even necessary. And it becomes seemingly impossible to explain the fall of man in Genesis 3 without acknowledging man’s free will decision to disobey. If even the fall was predetermined by God and was part of God’s will, it seems God is not love after all, and we wonder why, if everything is predetermined, God would grieve that he made man (Genesis 6:6).

Our interpretations of Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, and Ephesians 1 have massive implications for understanding the rest of the Bible. The key issue here is whether our assumptions and misconceptions about these passages will distort our interpretation of the rest of the Bible, or whether we will allow scripture to interpret itself by understanding these passages in light of the truths communicated in the rest of the Bible.

Understanding the Hebrew Foundation

These passages of scripture cannot be treated as an island – they must be understood in the context of the Bible as a whole. Too many Christians fail to understand the New Testament because they do not first understand the Old. Paul was a Jew writing from a Hebrew perspective. He was intimately acquainted with the Old Testament and the history of Israel. Establishing Old Testament truth as our foundation is critically important for correctly understanding the New Testament and especially the writings of Paul.

Throughout the Old Testament there is an axiomatic, underlying assumption that all human beings are free moral agents – that we have the ability to choose right, or choose wrong. Human beings are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26), endowed with creative capabilities that reflect the creativity of God, albeit on a much smaller scale. Throughout the Bible we see a continuing story of God interacting with His creation. No relationship is possible without free will – love extended out compulsion is not real love. God could have created robots that simply do His bidding and never make free decisions. Instead, God chose to allow free will even though it opened up the possibility of disobedience. It was His good pleasure to do this, because God wants to have a relationship with His creation.

Free will is the reason why we are responsible for our own actions. We are morally responsible only because both obedience and disobedience are within our control. If we did not have the ability to choose right and wrong, we could not justly be held responsible for our actions. Sin is only punishable because we have the ability to do otherwise.

Being free moral agents does not mean we never experience temptation or outside forces that influence our actions. In Genesis 3 we see that God gives Adam and Eve a choice between obedience and disobedience. Eve is tempted by the serpent, and Adam and Eve choose disobedience. God then holds them fully responsible for what they have done. Because of sin, we’ve inherited a sinful nature that desires things contrary to God’s will. Our sinful nature tempts us, but does not control us. We are never forced to sin.

Our DNA, our environment, our relationships, our health, our emotions, the devil, and the Holy Spirit all influence the decisions we make. However, none of these control our decisions. Every decision wee make is our own responsibility, and we can’t pass the buck or blame anyone or anything else.

Free will has always been one of the foundational truths of Judaism. We see this over and over again in the Book of Deuteronomy, where God sets before His people life and death, blessings and curses, and commands them to “choose” (Deuteronomy 30:19). God did not predetermine that Israel would sin. On the contrary, God declares that they have the ability to obey: “the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it” (Deuteronomy 30:14).

Throughout the history of Israel, we see Israel enjoying the blessings of God whenever they choose obedience, and suffering the punishment of God whenever they choose disobedience. The clear message of the Old Testament is that human beings are capable of both good and evil – we choose, and we enjoy or suffer the consequences of what we choose.

In Joshua, we see a clear command for people to “choose” whether they will serve Yahweh, or serve idols (Joshua 24:15). From the Exodus through the kings of Israel, we see a repeated failure on Israel’s part to believe God, and a repeated crying out of the prophets, pleading with Israel to choose faith and obedience rather than choose unbelief and disobedience. The sins of Israel deeply grieved God. In Isaiah 5:4, God uses the analogy of a vineyard to describe Israel, and asks, “Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?” God mourned over Israel’s choice of unbelief.

In Mathew 23:37, Jesus mourns over Jerusalem because of Israel’s unwillingnessto obey God: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” God wanted one thing for Israel, but Israel was unwilling and chose another. This demonstrates that human beings have free will – it is our decision whether we will obey God or disobey.

The Prophets Declare Free Will

“Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, ‘Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.”

-Jeremiah 3:6-7



“‘Surely, as a woman treacherously departs from her lover, so you have dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel,’ declares the LORD.”

-Jeremiah 3:20



“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.”

-Jeremiah 7:31



“Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind”

-Jeremiah 19:4-5



“They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”

-Jeremiah 32:35

Throughout the Book of Jeremiah, God describes the sins of Israel and weeps over Israel’s unfaithfulness. He expects Israel to choose obedience, but they choose disobedience (Jeremiah 3:6-7). Three times, God describes the sins of Israel as things “I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination.” Whether God was actually surprised by the sin, or whether that is simply a Jewish hyperbole, it’s very clear that God did not want these sins to happens. They can’t be explained by predestination. Rather, the Israelites made a free will decision to sin. Sin is outside of God’s will. The existence of sin is proof that God’s will is not always done!
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Part lll
Cont'd

Throughout the history of Israel, the Israelites repeatedly grieved God with their unbelief. Because they chose unbelief, they wandered for forty years in the wilderness before entering the Promised Land. Because they chose unbelief, they were sent into exile under the Assyrians and Babylonians. Because they chose unbelief, they ultimately rejected the Messiah, and were broken off from God’s covenant family so Gentiles could be grafted in (Romans 9-11).

Hosea is a beautiful picture of this. In one of the most shocking stories in the Bible, God commands Hosea to marry a prostitute and have children with her. When the prostitute leaves Hosea and starts sleeping around, Hosea experiences the heartbreak of his own wife being unfaithful to him. God uses that experience to demonstrate what His own relationship with Israel is like. God wanted a loving relationship with Israel like a man loves his wife, but Israel chose disobedience, unfaithfulness, and unbelief.

The message of Hosea only makes sense if Israel has free will. If God predetermined that Israel would be unfaithful – if that’s what God wanted from the beginning – why would God be grieved? If God willed it to happen, why would God feel like a man whose wife was unfaithful? The whole point of the analogy in Hosea is to emphasize Israel’s free will, and the consequences of Israel’s free choices.

Similarly, Ezekiel describes God raising Israel up like a parent caring for an infant. Israel was like an infant laying on the side of the road, covered in blood and filth, and God came along and cleaned Israel, nurtured Israel, raised Israel up, and then Israel rejected God and went its own way. What pain this caused God! If Israel’s actions were predetermined, how can this be explained?

Free Will Testifies to God’s Power and Love

Nowhere in God’s Word do we see God controlling every action. The Bible shows us a picture of God in relationship with humanity (and relationship requires two free agents), allowing humans to make decisions, and then responding in turn. He does not force humans to choose one thing or another. He lets them choose freely, and then He responds.

God is not so weak that He needs to control everything. God is so great, so powerful, and so loving, that He is willing to give us the freedom to make our own choices, even though He is sometimes temporarily frustrated by the choices we make.

It would be easy for God to simply control everything and force us to do His will. It takes a bigger, more powerful God to allow free will!

Free will is the ultimate testament to God’s love. God knew that by allowing free will, there would be a possibility of sin. But God has a plan for dealing with sin and ultimately eradicating all sin and evil. God loves the world so much that He sent His Son to die for the sins of every person who has ever lived – past, present, and future.

“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

-1 John 2:2

Faith is a Free Will Decision

In the gospels, we see Jesus preaching a message of repentance before the soon coming Kingdom of God (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7, Mark 1:15, etc.). We see him commanding his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel, making disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:18-20). In the New Testament, there is a strong sense of urgency to get the message of the gospel out to the whole world as soon as possible, because salvation is a choice that an individual makes – a choice to believe in the heart, and confess with the mouth.

“But what does it say? ‘The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

-Romans 10:8-10

Paul goes on to say in verse 14, “How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?”

If faith were predetermined by God, the answer to Paul’s question would be simple: They’ll believe with or without a preacher, because they’ve been predestined to believe, so it can’t happen any other way! But Paul says the exact opposite: belief can’t happen unless a person hears the gospel and makes a decision to believe. Therefore, there is an urgent need for evangelism.

Salvation by faith is the foundation of Paul’s teaching, and is continually preached in his letters as well as the New Testament as a whole. 65 times in the Book of Acts, Paul or Peter command people to be saved by choosing to believe in Jesus Christ.

A person cannot be forced to believe – belief by its nature requires choice. A robot does not “believe” anything, it simply follows its programming. Belief requires us to make our own decision on what we think is true. And throughout the Bible, we see a repeated theme of the choice between belief and unbelief, between obedience and disobedience. We are free moral agents, and we are responsible for the choice we make.

Predestination and Free Will: Designed to Work Together

Paul addressed his letter to the Ephesians “to the saints who are in Ephesus” who are “faithful in Christ Jesus” (v. 1). In his opening chapter Paul declares that God “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.” (v. 4-6).

As twenty-first century Americans we tend to read scripture from an individualistic perspective. Many assume that when Paul talks about predestination in Ephesians 1, he is talking about God choosing ahead of time which individual people will be saved. But no first century Jew would possibly understand Ephesians 1 in this way.

From the Jewish perspective, God chooses for Himself a group of people. In the Old Testament, God chose the descendants of Israel to be His chosen people. God made a covenant with Israel – He chose Israel over all of the other peoples on the earth, simply because He wanted to. He chose, elected, and predestined Israel to be His special people, a nation of priests (Isaiah 61:6), a “light to the nations” (Isaiah 42:6), and the means through which “all the families of the earth will be blessed” (Genesis 12:2-3). This is God’s corporate election.

But this does not mean that every individual Israelite is necessarily going to be a light or blessing to the nations. What God predestined for Israel only applies to those individuals willing to obey. Israelites who chose to rebel against God and disobey were excluded from the corporate election of Israel, and would not experience the blessings God predestined for Israel. Gentiles who obeyed God were included in the blessings of Israel. This is exactly why Paul writes in Romans 9:6: “they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.”

The Pharisees thought they were holy because of their ancestry. But Jesus said to them, “do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham” (Matthew 3:9).

This is, in fact, the main point that Paul makes in Romans: Salvation is – and has always been – on the basis of faith. Abraham was justified by faith (Romans 4) and everyone who believes and confesses faith in Jesus Christ is also justified (Romans 10:9-10).

Ephesians 1 tells us that from the foundation of the world God chose to have a special body of people (the church) who are “holy and blameless before Him.” But Ephesians 1 does not say that God chose each individual person in this body. That God will have His people adopted into His family is predestined. It’s guaranteed. But your inclusion in that promise as an individual is dependent on your free will decisions.

The promise of Ephesians 1 is only for “the saints” (v. 1). Therefore, whether or not you experience this in your life depends on whether or not you are a saint (a believer). This depends on your free will choice to put your faith in Jesus Christ. The same is true with Romans 8:29-30.

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

-Romans 8:29-30

This passage of scripture deals with what God predestined for believers in Jesus Christ, not who He predestined. God promises that every believer will be conformed to the image of His Son. It’s predestined that every believer will be called, justified, and glorified. This is God’s will from the beginning of time, and it’s guaranteed for every believer.

“For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”

-Philippians 1:6

The controversy with Romans 8:29-30 is the issue of who God “foreknew” and what the word “foreknew” means in this passage of scripture. The word “foreknew” in this passage is translated from the Greek word proegnō (Strong’s 4267). Many scholars have pointed out that this kind of knowledge is more than intellectual knowledge, but refers to passionate, emotional intimacy. It has been compared to the Hebrew word yada (Strong’s 3045), which is used in Genesis 4:1 to refer to sexual intimacy: “Adam knew Eve his wife” (KJV).

From the Jewish perspective, to “know” someone means to love someone. Therefore, “foreknow” really means “forelove” – to love someone ahead of time. Paul uses the word again in Romans 11:2.

“God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?”

-Romans 11:2

In context, “His people” in this verse refers to Israel. God loved Israel before Israel even existed, because God already had a plan for Israel from the beginning. In the same way, God “foreloves” His church and predestines that everyone in the church will be “conformed to the image of His Son.”

In both cases, what God loves ahead of time is the corporate group as a whole, not individuals in particular. God has predestined His will for His church from the beginning. Whether we are part of His church or not depends on our decision to place our faith in Jesus Christ.

Paul’s Message in Romans 9

Calvinist interpretations of Romans 9 generally assume this is a chapter on personal salvation. But the text needs to be understood in its context. The first six verses of this chapter are important to understanding the rest of the chapter:

“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel”

-Romans 9:1-6

The issue in Romans 9 is not salvation, but whether “the word of God has failed.” This was a major issue for Paul, who was a Jew, a descendant of Israel, even a Pharisee (Philippians 3:5). And yet Paul’s teachings departed from orthodox Judaism. Paul preached that because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God now adopts Gentiles into His covenant family. This means that Gentile believers in Jesus Christ are equal heirs to the promises of God, equal members of God’s covenant family. Paul writes in Romans 10:12 that there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Jews believed they were saved by being descendants of Abraham and obeying the Law. But Paul taught that anyone can be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, even Gentiles. This means that Jewish ancestry and obedience to the Law have no value (Galatians 5:2). This teaching created great controversy in first century Judaism. Jews accused Paul of teaching that God had broken his covenant with Israel and chosen Gentiles instead. In their view, this was impossible and would mean that God’s Word had failed.

The major issue of Romans 9 is the issue of God’s faithfulness to Israel, and how God elects a group of people to his covenant promises. Paul is not concerned in this chapter with an individual’s personal salvation. He is speaking of God’s covenant promise with Israel as His chosen people.

Paul’s message in Romans 9 is that the Word of God has not failed. He argues that God’s covenant with Israel was never based on ancestry or obedience to the law. The Israelites were not God’s chosen people because of any merit on their part. Rather, God chose them simply because He wanted to. Paul’s main message in Romans 9 is that God chooses whatever group of people He wants to represent Him. He chose Israel to be His covenant people, and if He wants to extend His covenant to include Gentiles, He has every right to do so.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Part lV
Cont'd

“Jacob I Loved, But Esau I Hated”

Paul describes how God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau in order to demonstrate that God chooses whatever group of people He wants for Himself, and He doesn’t need to justify His choices to us. Why did God choose Jacob over Esau? We can’t explain why, except to say that it’s what God wanted: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” (v. 13). If it seems “unfair” that God chose Jacob over Esau, Paul’s response is simple: “he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” (v. 15-16).

Jews were shocked by Paul’s teaching that God made a covenant with Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ. From the Jewish perspective, it is the children of Israel alone who are God’s covenant people, and Gentiles are excluded. But Paul counters their arguments by demonstrating that even God’s selection of Israel had nothing to do with Israel’s own merits. God chose Jacob (Israel) simply because He wanted to. If He wants to choose Gentiles in the same way, He can do so.

It’s important to note that Paul’s illustrations of Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau, have absolutely nothing to do with an individual’s personal salvation. Paul is not concerned with the issue of whether Isaac or Jacob are saved. To interpret the text this way is to miss the point. Paul is concerned here with God choosing groups of people to be His covenant people and accomplish His purposes – the children of Israel first, but now also the Gentiles.

Romans 9 is not about an individual’s personal salvation. In fact, the reason Paul chooses Jacob/Esau and Isaac/Ishmael as examples is because they are more than individuals – they represent whole nations. Although Jacob’s name was changed to Israel, the name “Jacob” is still used throughout the Old Testament to refer to the nation of Israel as a whole. God choosing Isaac and Jacob has little or nothing to do with them as individuals. The real meaning is God choosing the nation of Israel (descendants of Isaac/Jacob) over the nation of Moab (descendants of Ishmael) and the nation of Edom (descendants of Esau).

The Calvinist interpretation – that God predetermines ahead of time which individuals will be saved – completely misses the point of what Paul is saying. Paul is talking about entire nations here, not individuals. At the individual level, not all Moabites/Edomites were necessarily condemned, nor were all Israelites necessarily saved. Paul is talking about God choosing one nation to be His people, and one nation not to be His people. An individual’s personal salvation does not even enter the picture.

Paul’s overarching message in Romans 9-11 is that Jews should not be surprised that God is now including Gentiles in His covenant. Paul appeals to Old Testament prophecy to demonstrate that this has always been God’s plan. In Romans 9:25-26 he quotes the prophecy of Hosea: “those who were not my people I will call my people.” In Romans 10:20 he quotes Isaiah, “I have been found by those who did not seek me, I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” My personal favorite is Romans 10:19, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” In Romans 11:11-24 Paul describes the breaking off of the Jews for their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah, and the grafting in of the Gentiles. This is, Paul argues, simply part of God’s plan from the beginning.
 
Upvote 0