Efficacy of prayers for the dead

[ArmyMatt]

I can say to you, I hope God has mercy on you on your last day....and it not be a prayer to God. It could simply be what I wish for you.

yes, and if you did that after I had died, that is a prayer. and just because you would only wish it, that does not mean that was Paul's intent.

again, you are simply setting your own reading of it over the history that says otherwise, without giving any reason as to why you are correct and everything else is wrong.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can ask God to grant you mercy on the last day....does that mean you're dead?

if I was dead and you did, then yes. like Onisephorus was

 

[-57]

yes, and if you did that after I had died, that is a prayer. and just because you would only wish it, that does not mean that was Paul's intent.

again, you are simply setting your own reading of it over the history that says otherwise, without giving any reason as to why you are correct and everything else is wrong.

I have given you several reasons...you still haven't shown to me that the bible concludes 100% that Onisephorus was dead when Paul was hoping for his mercy.

You only suggest it because it fits your view.

 

[~Anastasia~]

From way back on page one (I started reading the thread then realized it's been going on for a while):


No argument from me.
I had the same issue. Parts didn't make sense or seemed outright contradictory. Then there were the parts where I was told to, just consider that times and culture has changed..

When I was in catechism and still in our Bible Studies, my priest laughs (encouragingly) when he recognizes that a light bulb has lit over me head. He calls those "Aha! moments"
When suddenly the puzzling passage makes sense.

Indeed.

I can remember asking my pastors at various denominational churches, "if we believe this, why does this passage say what it does?" I was given various answers, but all were some version of "it doesn't really mean what it says" or else basically told to ignore parts of Scripture. Orthodoxy is the first and only faith I know of that embraces ALL of Scripture without finding it necessary to ignore or change any part.

I know what you mean about those "aha!" moments when it finally makes sense.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have given you several reasons...you still haven't shown to me that the bible concludes 100% that Onisephorus was dead when Paul was hoping for his mercy.

You only suggest it because it fits your view.

because I don't ignore history and what the early Church said concerning prayers for the dead. I am not one to think that by reading something in a completely different language and context, that I alone can grasp its meaning.

the Bible also does not say Paul was beheaded in Rome, yet you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doubts that.

 

[-57]

because I don't ignore history and what the early Church said concerning prayers for the dead. I am not one to think that by reading something in a completely different language and context, that I alone can grasp its meaning.

the Bible also does not say Paul was beheaded in Rome, yet you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doubts that.

So, basically you want me to believe your early church derived a doctrine from one controversial verse from the NT?

 

[Lukaris]

So, basically you want me to believe your early church derived a doctrine from one controversial verse from the NT?

I know I have personally given examples not specifically mentioned in the Bible that are implicit according to tradition. Being pro life vs. abortion; abortion is defined in the Didache but not specifically in the Bible. I mentioned a prayer for a departed person from an account of St. Paul & Thecla which is an accepted historically by the earliest church. I provided verses from Matthew 22:32, 1 Timothy 2:1, & John 5:22-30 which in summation say God is of the living, to pray for all, & all will hear the voice of the Lord at His second coming.

By your reasoning do we question the intent of scripture on abortion? Do we say early post apostolic accounts (held by the church) & understanding scripture in light of prayer are traditions of man? By incorrect authority which pattern you unintentionally ( I stress unintentionally) vear?

 

[-57]

I know I have personally given examples not specifically mentioned in the Bible that are implicit according to tradition. Being pro life vs. abortion; abortion is defined in the Didache but not specifically in the Bible. I mentioned a prayer for a departed person from an account of St. Paul & Thecla which is an accepted historically by the earliest church. I provided verses from Matthew 22:32, 1 Timothy 2:1, & John 5:22-30 which in summation say God is of the living, to pray for all, & all will hear the voice of the Lord at His second coming.

By your reasoning do we question the intent of scripture on abortion? Do we say early post apostolic accounts (held by the church) & understanding scripture in light of prayer are traditions of man? By incorrect authority which pattern you unintentionally ( I stress unintentionally) vear?

Matt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Jesus spoke about the resurrection of the dead...not praying for them.

1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered on behalf of all men

This verse is about the living. For kings and all those in authority. If your dead I don't see you being a king or in authority.

John 5:22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Nothing about praying for the dead.

 

[icxn]

Is it a sin to pray for the dead?

- edit -

Also, if, hypothetically, your son was very sick and died, would it be a sin to ask Christ to raise him up?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So, basically you want me to believe your early church derived a doctrine from one controversial verse from the NT?

no, I am saying it is historic fact that the doctrines that were given at Pentecost are reflected in the whole of the Holy Tradition of which the Bible is the central, but not sole, part. this includes prayers for the dead, which was written in 2 Maccabees long before Christ, and written of long before the Bible was codified.

correct belief comes before the written account. Christ being the Word was just as true in the 33 AD as it was in the 90's when St John actually wrote his Gospel, or any part of the NT was begun.

 

[icxn]

Prayer for the dead is not biblical.
Heb 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Christ prayed for His dead friend Lazarus.

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” John 11:41-42​

 

[ArmyMatt]

Christ prayed for His dead friend Lazarus.

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” John 11:41-42​

good point, never thought of that one

 

[-57]

Christ prayed for His dead friend Lazarus.

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” John 11:41-42​

Jesus didn't pray that Lazarus was to be saved from hell.
In this event Christ was demonstrating who He was. Got it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Jesus didn't pray that Lazarus was to be saved from hell.
In this event Christ was demonstrating who He was. Got it?

that's not the point, the point is He prayed for a dead man. and no one said Christ prayed Lazarus be saved from hell.

 

[-57]

that's not the point, the point is He prayed for a dead man. and no one said Christ prayed Lazarus be saved from hell.

Jesus didn't pray for lazarus.....Jesus simply said in a loud voice...“Lazarus, come out!”

 

[ArmyMatt]

Jesus didn't pray for lazarus.....Jesus simply said in a loud voice...“Lazarus, come out!”

that was not the part that was being referred to.

 

[-57]

that was not the part that was being referred to.

Then present where.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Then present where.

scroll up, ixcn already has. the verse he quotes puts the Lord's prayer in the past tense, prior to His command that Lazarus come forth.

 

[-57]

scroll up, ixcn already has. the verse he quotes puts the Lord's prayer in the past tense, prior to His command that Lazarus come forth.

Sorry sir, but I completely fail to see your point.
ixcn point was about bringing someone back to life. Not a salvational prayer where one is cleansed of their sins after they have died.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry sir, but I completely fail to see your point.
ixcn point was about bringing someone back to life. Not a salvational prayer where one is cleansed of their sins after they have died.

that also was not the point, the point is prayer for the dead. ixcn pointed out that Christ prayed to the Father prior to His bringing him back to life.

he quoted you as saying prayer for the dead is not Biblical, and then he referenced Christ doing it. ixcn did not quote anything about salvation for someone who died even though that is how the conversation went.