Efficacy of prayers for the dead

[FenderTL5]

What passages are puzzling?

exhibit A, one of the easier ones:
Matthew 11:30
"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

That passage never seemed to gel with the balance of Christ's teachings on the cost of discipleship.

 

[-57]

no kidding, prayer for the dead does not dispute this

Prayer for the dead is not biblical.
Heb 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,

 

[ArmyMatt]

You seem to be mixing up miracles and magic...or rather making them the same.

A miracle is different than using a magical potion to scare away demons.

by that definition the lamb blood was magic during Exodus

 

[ArmyMatt]

Prayer for the dead is not biblical.
Heb 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,

prayer for the dead does not dispute Hebrews, and it is Biblical. Onesiphorus was dead and 2 Maccabees.

 

[-57]

exhibit A, one of the easier ones:
Matthew 11:30
"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

That passage never seemed to gel with the balance of Christ's teachings on the cost of discipleship.

Should you be looking at each in the same context or should you be looking at the verse in the context of being easier than the yoke and burden of the law?

How have you through your understanding of orthodoxy reconciled this verse?

 

[-57]

by that definition the lamb blood was magic during Exodus

Really????

The lamb blood wasn't a magical potion used like the burning of fish parts to ward off demons.
James 4:7 tells us what to do to make the devil flee.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Eph 6:11 tells us to......Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil's schemes.

1st Peter 5:8 tells us....Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

...if burning certain fish parts was of God, then why tell us to resist, put on the armor, submit, Be sober-minded and alert?

 

[-57]

prayer for the dead does not dispute Hebrews, and it is Biblical. Onesiphorus was dead and 2 Maccabees.

If Onesiphorus was dead one could just as easily argue the prayers were for the household of Onesiphorus.

16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus,

 

[ArmyMatt]

Really????

The lamb blood wasn't a magical potion used like the burning of fish parts to ward off demons.
James 4:7 tells us what to do to make the devil flee.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Eph 6:11 tells us to......Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil's schemes.

1st Peter 5:8 tells us....Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

...if burning certain fish parts was of God, then why tell us to resist, put on the armor, submit, Be sober-minded and alert?

for one, because the burning of the fish was before the decent of the Holy Spirit. so yes, it would not make sense now for that to happen because Christ is risen and the Comforter has been poured out on all flesh. however, because we are talking about an OT incident, which was before the coming of the Messiah, since this came from God, it is not magic.

we resist now because we live in a New Age, it's the same reason we don't slaughter bulls and turtledoves anymore, because the Messiah is our sacrifice.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If Onesiphorus was dead one could just as easily argue the prayers were for the household of Onesiphorus.

16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus,

yes, that part of the prayer is for the household, but the rest of the prayer is for him and not the household, that God would show mercy on him on the Last Day.

 

[-57]

yes, that part of the prayer is for the household, but the rest of the prayer is for him and not the household, that God would show mercy on him on the Last Day.

The prayer is that Onesiphorus might find mercy of the Lord, when called to pass out of time into eternity, and to appear before the judgment seat of Christ.
At the time Paul wrote this....that day had not arrived. Onesiphorus was still alive.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The prayer is that Onesiphorus might find mercy of the Lord, when called to pass out of time into eternity, and to appear before the judgment seat of Christ.
At the time Paul wrote this....that day had not arrived. Onesiphorus was still alive.

incorrect, he was the third bishop of Corinth and had died. the current bishop in Corinth traces his line through Onesiphorus. this is what the history shows. keeping repeating that he is alive, when historic evidence speaks otherwise, does not add weight to your argument.

 

[-57]

incorrect, he was the third bishop of Corinth and had died. the current bishop in Corinth traces his line through Onesiphorus. this is what the history shows. keeping repeating that he is alive, when historic evidence speaks otherwise, does not add weight to your argument.

Regarding wheter or not he was dead or alive...Paul was addresing the people of his wishes.

Why do you think it was a prayer to God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Regarding wheter or not he was dead or alive...Paul was addresing the people of his wishes.

Why do you think it was a prayer to God?

yes addressing the people and making a prayer to God on behalf of a dead man. it was a prayer to God because God can have mercy on the dead. the fact he was addressing the people is a moot point. the point is that he prayed for someone who had died. it was a prayer to God since, you rightly pointed out, only He can save.

 

[-57]

yes addressing the people and making a prayer to God on behalf of a dead man. it was a prayer to God because God can have mercy on the dead. the fact he was addressing the people is a moot point. the point is that he prayed for someone who had died. it was a prayer to God since, you rightly pointed out, only He can save.

He was speaking to the people...expressing his desire.

Now, not only do you have to prove he was dead, but now you must show that is was a prayer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the diptychs (the line of bishops to the Apostles) put the time of his death prior to the writing of St Paul's letter. as does the lives of the saints. as do all of the traditional Christian confessions, all of whom pray for the dead to include some the early Protestant reformers (Lutherans and Anglicans). the problem is there is no evidence that he was alive. all you have shown is your reading which you have yet to show is true, aside from repeating that he is alive. most of the Christian world, and more importantly Christian history disagrees with you. plus Paul was one who believed and read 2 Maccabees, so Paul came out of a culture that prayed for the dead.

and the first half of verse 18 is St Paul hoping God have mercy on him on the Last Day, which is a prayer, and is how we pray for the dead.

 

[-57]

the diptychs (the line of bishops to the Apostles) put the time of his death prior to the writing of St Paul's letter. as does the lives of the saints. as do all of the traditional Christian confessions, all of whom pray for the dead to include some the early Protestant reformers (Lutherans and Anglicans). the problem is there is no evidence that he was alive. all you have shown is your reading which you have yet to show is true, aside from repeating that he is alive. most of the Christian world, and more importantly Christian history disagrees with you. plus Paul was one who believed and read 2 Maccabees, so Paul came out of a culture that prayed for the dead.

and the first half of verse 18 is St Paul hoping God have mercy on him on the Last Day, which is a prayer, and is how we pray for the dead.

The text shows he was alive...you have shown no evidence he was dead.
Secondly you have not shown it was a prayer addressed to God rather than being a talk of hope to the people in earshot and later recorded in the bible.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The text shows he was alive...you have shown no evidence he was dead.
Secondly you have not shown it was a prayer addressed to God rather than being a talk of hope to the people in earshot and later recorded in the bible.

the text does not show that he is alive, and history shows he died. the "Lord grant him mercy" is an ancient prayer formula, and one that our Church still uses to this day.

 

[-57]

the diptychs (the line of bishops to the Apostles) put the time of his death prior to the writing of St Paul's letter. as does the lives of the saints. as do all of the traditional Christian confessions, all of whom pray for the dead to include some the early Protestant reformers (Lutherans and Anglicans). the problem is there is no evidence that he was alive. all you have shown is your reading which you have yet to show is true, aside from repeating that he is alive. most of the Christian world, and more importantly Christian history disagrees with you. plus Paul was one who believed and read 2 Maccabees, so Paul came out of a culture that prayed for the dead.

and the first half of verse 18 is St Paul hoping God have mercy on him on the Last Day, which is a prayer, and is how we pray for the dead.

I can say to you, I hope God has mercy on you on your last day....and it not be a prayer to God. It could simply be what I wish for you.

 

[FenderTL5]

.

 

[-57]

the text does not show that he is alive, and history shows he died. the "Lord grant him mercy" is an ancient prayer formula, and one that our Church still uses to this day.

I can ask God to grant you mercy on the last day....does that mean you're dead?