Efficacy of prayers for the dead

[abacabb3]

Saint Paisos prayed for the the wicked and even demons, confident that prayers for the dead and demons not only limit suffering, but can liberate the damned. My priest in Danbury CT said that prayers avail all, but their eternal destination remains unchanged (i.e. a damned person is still damned, but maybe it is less bad). I have seen priests take opposite sides on this issue. Can I get some comments and insight on this?

 

[-57]

Saint Paisos prayed for the the wicked and even demons, confident that prayers for the dead and demons not only limit suffering, but can liberate the damned. My priest in Danbury CT said that prayers avail all, but their eternal destination remains unchanged (i.e. a damned person is still damned, but maybe it is less bad). I have seen priests take opposite sides on this issue. Can I get some comments and insight on this?

No where does the bible instruct you to do such things. For example, where does the bible say the dead damned can be liberated?

 

[abacabb3]

No where does the bible instruct you to do such things. For example, where does the bible say the dead damned can be liberated?

Nowhere, but there is, what appears to be, a prayer for the dead in 2 Tim 1--

15 You are aware that all who are in Asia have turned away from me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes. 16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 when he arrived in Rome, he eagerlysearched for me and found me 18 —may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! And you know very well how much service he rendered in Ephesus.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Saint Paisos prayed for the the wicked and even demons, confident that prayers for the dead and demons not only limit suffering, but can liberate the damned. My priest in Danbury CT said that prayers avail all, but their eternal destination remains unchanged (i.e. a damned person is still damned, but maybe it is less bad). I have seen priests take opposite sides on this issue. Can I get some comments and insight on this?

Praying for the dead is like bolting the stable door after the horse has gone.

 

[-57]

Nowhere, but there is, what appears to be, a prayer for the dead in 2 Tim 1--

15 You are aware that all who are in Asia have turned away from me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes. 16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 when he arrived in Rome, he eagerlysearched for me and found me 18 —may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! And you know very well how much service he rendered in Ephesus.

Sounds like Onesiphorus is alive.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Saint Paisos prayed for the the wicked and even demons, confident that prayers for the dead and demons not only limit suffering, but can liberate the damned. My priest in Danbury CT said that prayers avail all, but their eternal destination remains unchanged (i.e. a damned person is still damned, but maybe it is less bad). I have seen priests take opposite sides on this issue. Can I get some comments and insight on this?

As far as I'm aware, the Church has no definite stance on what may be accomplished. We do not teach that someone can be "prayed to salvation" after they have died.

However, we do understand that God would foresee such prayers, since He us not limited by time.

Also, we most often pray for God's mercy, without telling Him what form that should take.

Further, we do not say that God cannot do whatever He wishes with a soul, in His mercy, before or after they die.

I know many Protestants teach that God is limited by cosmic laws of justice that prevent His mercy acting in any way He might choose, but we do not believe this.



There is a great deal mire that can be said, but that's a start.

Oh, and we may trust the Saints in general, more so perhaps on certain things, depending on their agreement and other things, but we do not regard any man as infallible (except the Man Christ, of course) ... so even though they are recognized as being pleasing to God, we do not say they cannot be wrong about something or other.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sounds like Onesiphorus is alive.

Because you need him to be in order to justify what you believe?

 

[~Anastasia~]

One question .... have you ever wondered why Matt 12 says what it does?

32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


If the Apostles and early Church fully understood that forgiveness after death was completely impossible, why would they even mention this?

 

[-57]

Because you need him to be in order to justify what you believe?

No, that's the natural reading of that verse.
Can you show that he's dead? or, do you need him to be dead for your belief to be justified?

 

[-57]

One question .... have you ever wondered why Matt 12 says what it does?

32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


If the Apostles and early Church fully understood that forgiveness after death was completely impossible, why would they even mention this?

But you're supposing there is forgiveness of sin after death...because Jesus says there is no forgiveness for those that speak against the Holy Spirit in the next life.

Jesus doesn't say ....sins may be forgiven after death, but speaking against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

I see you adding to the text.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sounds like Onesiphorus is alive.

actually, he had died prior to St Paul writing that Epistle. do you have any evidence that he was alive?

plus the book of 2 Maccabees has the Jews praying for the dead

 

[ArmyMatt]

Saint Paisos prayed for the the wicked and even demons, confident that prayers for the dead and demons not only limit suffering, but can liberate the damned. My priest in Danbury CT said that prayers avail all, but their eternal destination remains unchanged (i.e. a damned person is still damned, but maybe it is less bad). I have seen priests take opposite sides on this issue. Can I get some comments and insight on this?

no one is truly damned until Judgment Day. so there are a lot of souls in torment now, who God knows will never repent, thus are damned and their fate is sealed. however, it is possible for someone to be in torment until Judgment Day, because God knows that is what they need to repent. someone like that is s not damned and the prayers help.

so, it's both

 

[~Anastasia~]

No, that's the natural reading of that verse.
Can you show that he's dead? or, do you need him to be dead for your belief to be justified?

Not interested in arguing with you, btw.

But Paul speaks of what Onesiphorus has done for him in the past tense. Now Paul is abandoned. He does not ask special prayers for the others who chose to abandon him, but he does wish mercy for Onesiphorus. Not only that, but he separates the household of Onesiphorus out in his greetings, from the man himself.

It's not something to argue about and "prove" from Scripture, but the epistles weren't written so that you could. They were written by and to people who knew the persons discussed, and this is a natural reading of them.

Do with it what you will.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But you're supposing there is forgiveness of sin after death...because Jesus says there is no forgiveness for those that speak against the Holy Spirit in the next life.

Jesus doesn't say ....sins may be forgiven after death, but speaking against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

I see you adding to the text.

I don't see a way to justify what you are saying. The Scripture says what it says and it becomes nonsensical if you apply traditional Protestant understanding to it. I was a Protestant for decades, and I recognized that passage "didn't make sense" as written, to me while holding those beliefs.

I'm not interesting in arguing. But I'm not adding to the text. I'm just reading it. And if you've never wondered yourself why it says that, I'd say you weren't reading it closely.

Again, not interested in arguing. You may believe what you wish. I'm only interested in answering the OP's questions.

But since this is St. Justin's you are free to debate all you wish, and perhaps someone will engage you in it, to edification. I'm just not up for it at the moment.

God be with you.

 

[-57]

actually, he had died prior to St Paul writing that Epistle.

Can you support that?

 

[abacabb3]

no one is truly damned until Judgment Day. so there are a lot of souls in torment now, who God knows will never repent, thus are damned and their fate is sealed. however, it is possible for someone to be in torment until Judgment Day, because God knows that is what they need to repent. someone like that is s not damned and the prayers help.

so, it's both

2 Clement says there is no repentance after death

"For after that we have departed out of the world, we can no more make
confession there, or repent any more." (2 Clem 8:3)

 

[abacabb3]

As far as I'm aware, the Church has no definite stance on what may be accomplished. We do not teach that someone can be "prayed to salvation" after they have died.

Yes, one priest told me this but Saint Paisos disagrees.

It makes sense that our prayers can be "retroactive" (i.e. God could grant belief and repentance to someone in the past, forseeing our future prayers.

 

[Michael Scaman]

Saint Paisos prayed for the the wicked and even demons, confident that prayers for the dead and demons not only limit suffering, but can liberate the damned. My priest in Danbury CT said that prayers avail all, but their eternal destination remains unchanged (i.e. a damned person is still damned, but maybe it is less bad). I have seen priests take opposite sides on this issue. Can I get some comments and insight on this?

Today is the day of salvation. So I would say pray for the living to be comforted in their losses and pray for the spiritually dead to become alive in Christ.

 

[-57]

2 Clement says there is no repentance after death

"For after that we have departed out of the world, we can no more make
confession there, or repent any more." (2 Clem 8:3)

Heb 9:21 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

 

[~Anastasia~]

Heb 9:21 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

How long after?