Education vs. indoctrination, brainwashing, etc.

LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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I think that indoctrination, brainwashing, etc. can be as much about what you do not offer to students as what you do offer to students.

People probably write volumes and volumes of books about public and/or private education really being indoctrination, brainwashing, or some other form of control. But I think that I can sum it all up in one sentence: if by offering something and/or not offering something to students you are privileging any alternative then that is controlling people and not educating them.

That means that even if you offer, say, both history and biology, if you act like biology is more important then you are controlling people. Let students decide for themselves what is important and you are a true educator.

I recently read--in Scientific American, I believe--someone saying that secondary school students "deserve" to be taught about the science of climate change. Well, if for political reasons you do not offer instruction on the topic of climate change--again, it is as much about what you do not offer as what you do offer--then that is controlling people. But to privilege a topic/issue and say that students "deserve" to be taught about it is not filling an indoctrination/brainwashing-motivated void--I would argue that it is its own form of indoctrination.

If it is as much about what you do not offer, does that mean that I--moderate-to-left, wouldn't-touch-fundamentalism-with-a-ten-foot-pole I--think that instruction in Intelligent Design, creation science, etc. should be offered in public schools? Yes. They are ideas. They are what people think. Some people may not like them. Some people may not agree with them. But just because we do not like an idea does not mean that we have the right not to educate young people about it. People do not like the ideas/thinking of Segregationists, communism or fascism, but we educate young people about them. An education is a guided tour through what people have thought, not filling minds with absolute truths. I assert that anybody who says that something is or is not true is not a teacher--a teacher tells you that, right or wrong, true or false, for better or for worse, this is what people have thought.

Separation of church and state? If you are teaching Intelligent Design, creation science, etc. as some of the many alternative ideas that people have had then the separation of church and state should not be an issue.

A lot of people want to keep things like Intelligent Design out of public schools because they say that it is people trying to indoctrinate young people.

Only a fool would deny that things like the call for teaching Intelligent Design in public schools is about controlling people. In Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul, Kenneth R. Miller shows how the Intelligent Design movement is really about changing the definition of science and in the process subjugating or destroying science. I have read the book. I get that.

But what a lot of people do not seem to get is that privileging "science" is a form of indoctrination / controlling people. I am becoming increasingly convinced that scientism is a full-blown ideology. Doing things like saying that children "deserve" to be taught about the science of climate change is part of that ideology, I believe.

Yes, we should teach young people about the science of climate change. Not because they "deserve" to be offered such instruction, but because, as much as time and funding will allow, true educators will teach them every idea--everything that people have thought.

And here is something that the left and the right, liberals and conservatives, atheists and Christian fundamentalists, and everybody in between probably will not like: A Brief History of Everything, by Ken Wilber, would be a true educator's dream to assign to students. A book that not only could be said to cover almost the entire constellation of ideas but integrates all of them as well--it would make modern science, Intelligent Design and every other idea competing for people's attention look like brief episodes of intellectual fidgeting.
 

CounselorForChrist

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I've always found it ironic when an atheist says we christian brainwash our children and its wrong to do. They say this as our children are brainwashed in school about the big bang, evolution..etc. They claim whats taught is school is not brainwashing because its based on fact. In which I reply how is it fact if its mostly just theories. Theories are not fact. Case in point we use various methods to assume there was a big bang.

BUT.. when I mention God they say there is no physical evidence of His existence. Well there is no physical evidence of the big bang either. I don't see the explosion or things its creating. Its just a theory going by what we see now. An assumption. But of course they try to have backup lines in case you point that out to them. In the end neither side will budge and thats fine with me. We all die at some point and have to answer to someone a bazillion more times smarter then we will have to be and at that point our "logic" is not something Hes going to say "Oh I see it better now from your POV". lol
 
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KarateCowboy

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Sure would be nice if schools could just teach trig, calculus, English literature, history and such. First learn that stuff. Predicting the weather, finding the cause of the Universe is beyond k 12

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Forum Runner. Pardon my brevity and spelling.
 
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ValleyGal

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I think if people all took a few basic sociology courses, they would realize exactly how much lack of control we really do have. So much of what we learn is subconscious. Even our language contributes to who we become as generations within a society. Take, for example, the idea that kids "deserve" to be taught climate change. How many other things do we say kids "deserve"....and then we wonder why our children have a sense of entitlement that older generations never had. "Deserving" isn't about what we should or should not teach them, or even about what they have a right to know. It's about what they are "entitled" to. But we don't recognize this on a conscious level. Even the way a country was colonized contributes to social ideologies, values, expectations, etc. If we teach anything at all to the next generation, it is, in essence, brainwashing, and yet it is an expectation that parents pass along culture to the next generation. It is a necessity in order for our children to function....we teach them language, religion, roles, traditions, celebrations, social expectations, etc.

If something is a theory, it should be taught as a theory, not as fact. Not a single person alive today was around for any kind of evolutionary process, so not one of us can say for certainty it happened. We can only theorize. If one theory is taught, then other theories need to be taught along with it. While some might think creation is a fact, it also is a "theory" because we were not there when it happened. Then people can choose which "theory" they want to believe. Some may believe in a God of miracles - and since creation theory is based on miracles, they may believe in creation. If someone does not believe God to be a God of miracles, they may believe in evolution without intelligent design, for example.
 
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beaverpond

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I feel the need or the want to chime in here. Somebody who wants to discuss education issues. Oh Boy !!! I am not here to ridicule anybody for bringing this up or wanting to discuss this subject whether they feel one way or the other because I have been involved on other sites and have been bashed just for bringing it up at so many different levels.

I agree that if something is theory that it should be stated as such. If something is a fact then go ahead and state it and also prove it if the environment allows for it. We have had parents get all bent out of shape thinking we are teaching religion when if they took the time to actually listen to their kids, they would find out that it is a history lesson about all aspects of religion, not what to believe or what religion is right or wrong, but who believes in what or what they believe in. I would hate to tell you how many times this one has come up.

Then there is the whole common core issue that is a hot button issue lately. I have had to sit in on my share of this stuff and I am not saying I am in favor of it nor am I saying I am against it. We have had people come to our church to speak out against it, but I did not go because I had a committee meeting to go to that night. I have seen many illustrations where stuff that is taught in common core is stuff that we used when I was in school about 30 years ago...right down to the exact same forms of curriculum used in the classroom. However, some of the changes I see are that instead of seeing some of this stuff being taught in high school, it is being taught in middle school and stuff that I learned in middle school is now being taught in elementary school. For some of this I have no problem with it, for other parts I have questions about it.

Allow me to explain. There was a Christmas Concert done this month and there was 7 songs that were done for Hanukkah, 7 songs done in foreign languages, 3 songs done about Winter. It was a Christmas Concert and not a single Christmas Carol. This was an elementary school and they had the kids memorize 7 songs in foreign languages and when I started pushing to find out if the kids knew what they were singing all I got was, I don't know what you mean. So I said this school has grades K-5 in it, you had these kids singing 7 songs in foreign languages. We live in an area where we traditionally do not deal with anything but the English language. I want to know if these kids knew what the words in German, Latin, Spanish, & French meant in English to them. Then the lightbulbs started coming on and the answers were I don't know, never thought about it. I said that if the kids are going to be singing these songs, we need them to learn the meaning of these songs, not just the words in a foreign language if they have no idea what they are saying. I think it is terrific if the music teacher knows all these languages, but it means nothing if we don't teach the kids.

Know I have an interesting perspective here because I have the ear of the Superintendent and the Asst. Superintendent because I am on the Board of Directors for our local school board. The first person I heard from was the Asst. Superintendent because she is in charge of curriculum and she agrees that maybe all of these songs were a little over the top for an elementary school. She also told me that the list of complaints flowing in was a mile long. Me articulating everything the way I did grabbed their attention to pass onto the district music department and the district administrators.
 
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beaverpond

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Here is another one for everybody to think about. It has to with the funding of your school district. How much of your funding comes from the state and federal government? Do you know what your town is accessed at by your state? Do you know how much by percentage your town pays into the local school system?

Now I bring all this up because of some issues in our own school district. We only receive just below 3% from the state and federal government. About twenty five years ago the legislature signed into law that every district in the state would receive 55%, but over the last 10 years the state has been cutting the funding of school systems all around. However, they are using what they call the EPS Formula (Educational Primary Services) based on your school systems accessed property value. Like ours is worth 3.3 billion dollars, our school budget is $29 million, and the average household yearly income is $34,500, then our town pays 37% of the school district budget based on the number of students attending school from our town. Now when looking at the student lunch program, 1/3 of the students receive free lunch and another 1/3 get reduced lunch all because they fall at or below the poverty line. Now if the state and federal governments based it on average household income, our school district would get a lot more money...right now we get a little less than 1 million dollars. Some of the other school systems in our state get as much as 59% and one gets 62% from the state and feds. This is so twisted because even the largest city in our state gets 48% from the state and feds. We only have a population of 14,534 in our school system while Portland, our largest city, has a population of 66,214.
 
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keith99

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I had never heard of this and had to look it up...the study of the bumps on the top of the skull.

All I can say is...are you kidding me, this coming from a person who is on the curriculum committee of the local school board.

So you are upset that others are far more educated than you are?

I also know what astrology and alchemy are.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I had never heard of this and had to look it up...the study of the bumps on the top of the skull.

All I can say is...are you kidding me, this coming from a person who is on the curriculum committee of the local school board.

Yes, I'm kidding you.

The point I was making is that the OP's definition of "indoctrination" is rather silly and too broad to be applicable in any realistic sense. In the case of phrenology, we have a scientific discipline that was utterly rejected because there isn't any evidence to support it. There are completely valid reasons to not teach something and the rejection of teaching such things does not amount to indoctrination.
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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Should we teach phrenology in schools? Since we don't...does that mean we are indoctrinating kids against phrenology?




It sounds like you are saying that you know better than students what ideas are worth knowing and that formal education should be conducted accordingly.

I think that an educational system built around that kind of attitude severely undermines learning.

An educator's job is to guide students through what people have thought, not decide for students what is or is not worth knowing.

I believe that I already answered your question in my first post. I do not think that any idea should specifically be offered or not be offered. It is easier said than done, but decisions about what to offer should be based on what will yield the most learning within budget.

If teaching phrenology would open doors to a wealth of other ideas then it would probably be a good idea to offer it. But there is only so much time, money and other resources, phrenology probably does not expand horizons with such great magnitude, and therefore we offer other ideas to students.
 
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Ana the Ist

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It sounds like you are saying that you know better than students what ideas are worth knowing and that formal education should be conducted accordingly.

I think that an educational system built around that kind of attitude severely undermines learning.

An educator's job is to guide students through what people have thought, not decide for students what is or is not worth knowing.

I believe that I already answered your question in my first post. I do not think that any idea should specifically be offered or not be offered. It is easier said than done, but decisions about what to offer should be based on what will yield the most learning within budget.

If teaching phrenology would open doors to a wealth of other ideas then it would probably be a good idea to offer it. But there is only so much time, money and other resources, phrenology probably does not expand horizons with such great magnitude, and therefore we offer other ideas to students.

How would you decide what "yields the most learning"? (To use your words)
 
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keith99

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How would you decide what "yields the most learning"? (To use your words)

I'd listen to those who are learned.

One general rule would be that thoroughly rejected theories should not be taught. But there are exceptions like the Plum Pudding atomic model which is worth teaching, at least briefly as it has some interesting history and serves as a reminder about scientific progress.

Plum pudding model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The articles seem to omit an accidental aspect of the Gold Foil experiment.
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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How would you decide what "yields the most learning"? (To use your words)




Follow the spirit of the tradition known as liberal education (as in the liberal arts and sciences, not liberal vs. conservative, left vs. right, etc.) and everything should fall into place.

And just because something is offered does not mean that an entire lecture, entire book, entire course, etc. must be devoted to it. In a college astronomy class that I took the instructor briefly contrasted astronomy and astrology. He did not say that astrology is wrong. He did not say that astrology has no merit. He did not say that astronomy is superior. He simply said something to the effect of "This is what astronomy says. This is what astrology says." and moved on.
 
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CounselorForChrist

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So you are upset that others are far more educated than you are?

I also know what astrology and alchemy are.
Do you have degrees? Because I always say a degree is just a piece of paper. I know plenty of people that are smarter then those with degrees. A degree just means you got a pretty piece of paper saying you went to college for it.

One general rule would be that thoroughly rejected theories should not be taught.
But isn't big bang just a theory too? Its never been shown as fact. I don't see anyone whos gone back in time and can prove its real. Just looking at the universe and guessing is not fact. Its humans with are very limited minds trying to make sense of something we cannot. True one could say the bible is the same thing. But the bible is far more credible.
 
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Ryal Kane

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Do you have degrees? Because I always say a degree is just a piece of paper. I know plenty of people that are smarter then those with degrees. A degree just means you got a pretty piece of paper saying you went to college for it.


But isn't big bang just a theory too? Its never been shown as fact. I don't see anyone whos gone back in time and can prove its real. Just looking at the universe and guessing is not fact. Its humans with are very limited minds trying to make sense of something we cannot. True one could say the bible is the same thing. But the bible is far more credible.

I'd recommend taking this question over to the science forum rather than having this thread derail into a different topic. But I must point out that we can tell thing about the past the same way crime investigators can tell things about a murder scene. Events leave evidence. You don't require an eyewitness to learn many of the things that occurred.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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I've always found it ironic when an atheist says we christian brainwash our children and its wrong to do. They say this as our children are brainwashed in school about the big bang, evolution..etc. They claim whats taught is school is not brainwashing because its based on fact. In which I reply how is it fact if its mostly just theories. Theories are not fact. Case in point we use various methods to assume there was a big bang.

BUT.. when I mention God they say there is no physical evidence of His existence. Well there is no physical evidence of the big bang either. I don't see the explosion or things its creating. Its just a theory going by what we see now. An assumption. But of course they try to have backup lines in case you point that out to them. In the end neither side will budge and thats fine with me. We all die at some point and have to answer to someone a bazillion more times smarter then we will have to be and at that point our "logic" is not something Hes going to say "Oh I see it better now from your POV". lol

First, you really need to learn a bit more about science, especially in regards to scientific theories. Hint: The Theory of Gravity.

Second, religion and religious beliefs are not science, and should not be taught in a science class. It's just that simple.
 
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loveofourlord

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QUesetion, who gets to decide what things should be taught because they follow one religion, or shouldn't be taught because they go against anothers?

Should we go back to the days of catholic schools telling children that protestants were not true Christians, and give payers say to mary and such? Or when protestants would call catholics not True christians and attack and bemoan their religious ideas.

Education has to be based upon our current best understanding of things, school should challenge people's ideas on things, and if something is truly right it will stand the test of actual scruitiny. And a response to who ever said, shouldn't students decide or something like that, NO. Education isn't determined by the whim of parents, or children, or such it should be decided by those with the education and knowledge of the subjects.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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QUesetion, who gets to decide what things should be taught because they follow one religion, or shouldn't be taught because they go against anothers?

Should we go back to the days of catholic schools telling children that protestants were not true Christians, and give payers say to mary and such? Or when protestants would call catholics not True christians and attack and bemoan their religious ideas.

Education has to be based upon our current best understanding of things, school should challenge people's ideas on things, and if something is truly right it will stand the test of actual scruitiny. And a response to who ever said, shouldn't students decide or something like that, NO. Education isn't determined by the whim of parents, or children, or such it should be decided by those with the education and knowledge of the subjects.

Schools should teach right and wrong, with no special regard to any religion. Teachers have a certain moral authority that transcends what is believed by most of them themselves. This power should be used in the classroom, and continue throughout the students learning career, up to and including post-graduate teaching. Our graduates should come out of school with a strong moral foundation as well as a degree. Parent/Teacher Organizations (PTO's) should also work together on the moral aspect of learning, once again without regard to 'religion'. Proper morals in thought and deed are not the sole province of religion. Sadly they are often conflated, which leads to their abandonment altogether by the educational system.
 
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