Edom from a Jewish Perspective - Is it Christianity?

[Hoshiyya]

MEDRISH “YALKUT SHIMONI” (Yeshiya 60):

“Rabbi Yitzhak said: The year that Melech HaMoshiach will be revealed, all the kings of the nations of the world will provoke each other. The king of Persia [in modern times they changed the name of their country to “Iran”] will threaten the king of Arabia [today called “Saudi” Arabia] and because of this the king of Arabia will go to the king of Edom [USA] for advice.

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/07/15/jewish-prophecy-the-king-of-persia-will-destroy-the-world/

Actually, that sounds like stuff that would happen in the early parts of the apocalypse, which scriptures says will last more than 3 years. So this would probably not happen in "the year that Messiah will be revealed".

I don't see how the US fits prophetically with Edom, since the US is not an unfruitful land nor is it under the yoke of Israel, a country created 172 years after the US.

Reminds me more of Egypt or the Roman empire than of Edom.

 

[Lulav]

Here is an extract from a post of mine in this thread:

For me, the identification of Edom with various European nations has always been interesting, as well as problematic. On the one hand, many sources, from Josephus to Josippon and Jerahmeel, give detailed lists, identifying existing nations with their Biblical forefathers. [1]

Italians, or more specifically the Romans near the Tiber, are identified as Kittim in Midrash Sefer Ha-Yashar. The same book identifies Tubal with the Sabines of Tuscany.

Tradition identifies Germany as Ashkenaz. Hence the term for German Jewry is "Ashkenazi Jews". (By later development, north and east European Jews, including Russian Jews, are called Ashkenazim.)

In practice it seems "Edom" is used like "Babylon" is often used, as a term for an "evil nation" in a generic sense.
Nevertheless, Edom is in some sense or other correlated to specifically - out of all the nations in the world - Italy and Germany, in various traditional literature. Rabbis mention it surprisingly frequently in lectures. [2]

It becomes logical to ask:
If Germany is Edom, why are German Jews called "Ashkenazi Jews" rather than "Edomi Jews" ?

And furthermore:
Why doesn't Josephus, Josippon or related literature identify Germany and/or Rome with Edom, when the Talmud, and so many Rabbis, make this connection ?

Let's look at the 'blessing' of Esau for a moment, to see if it helps clarify the issue:

“Your dwelling will be
away from the earth’s richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.
You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck.”

(Br. 29:39-40)

Does this sound like a desription of Italy ?
Or Germany ?

Historical Edom/Esau was situated in parts of what is now Jordan, as I understand. The prediction above certainly seems more appropriate to that, than to Italy or Germany. I must admit I am flummoxed by the correlation of either of these two nations to Edom.

It seems to me Jordan actually encompasses three of the Biblical nations: Edom, Moab and Ammon all seem to have had their territory within what is now called the state of Jordan.


[1] I haven't read all of Josippon or Jerahmeel, but I have read the parts specifically dealing with genealogy and the "table of nations", and as I recall there was made no connection of Germany or Italy to Esau.

[2] One went as far as saying "all of Europe is Esav", which is a problematic statement even if meant as hyperbole. The same Rabbi nevertheless identified, at different times, both the Romans and the Germans as being from Esau, so again, Italy and Germany are the main targets.

I'll tell you why Josephus didn't make the Italian connection, because he was writing for them and all his writings are slanted in that way.

 

[Lulav]

I believe that 'Edom' meaning Esau, has been inbred throughout the nations, meaning that every nation has those of this line. Not all the citizens mind you but most likely the ones in power. Hitler certainly was, Mussolini, The Roman emperors and later on Popes. You also have Kings and Queens from this line as well.

 

[Hoshiyya]

either that, or they are nephilim...

 

[Lulav]

WE can't forget what the L-RD said about Esau's grandson- Amelek, his descendants would always fight against G-d (his people) in every generation. That is why we only need to look at those who attack Jews unrighteously to find Edom.

 

[Open Heart]

MEDRISH “YALKUT SHIMONI” (Yeshiya 60):

“Rabbi Yitzhak said: The year that Melech HaMoshiach will be revealed, all the kings of the nations of the world will provoke each other. The king of Persia [in modern times they changed the name of their country to “Iran”] will threaten the king of Arabia [today called “Saudi” Arabia] and because of this the king of Arabia will go to the king of Edom [USA] for advice.

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/07/15/jewish-prophecy-the-king-of-persia-will-destroy-the-world/

The countries were not inserted by Rabbi Yitzhak but by the owner of the website. Just fyi.

 

[Lulav]

I think that today Edom is those foreigners on the land. Those who claim rights who don't belong there.

Prophecy to the Mountains of Israel

eZkiel 36:1Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the L-RD: 2Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession: 3Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people: 4Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord G-D; Thus saith the Lord G-D to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about; 5Therefore thus saith the Lord G-D; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea (EDOM), which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey. 6Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: 7Therefore thus saith the Lord G-D; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. 8But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. 9For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: 11And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the L-RD. 12Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations; 14Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord G-D. 15Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord G-D.

It is interesting to note in this prophecy that only Edom is mentioned among all the nations.

 

[Hoshiyya]

WE can't forget what the L-RD said about Esau's grandson- Amelek, his descendants would always fight against G-d (his people) in every generation. That is why we only need to look at those who attack Jews unrighteously to find Edom.

Careful.

I made a post about a Rabbinical teaching to "fight Amalek" and was bombarded with accusations of racism.

Even though Amalek isn't even an identifiable race. The Rabbi was talking metaphorically. But still. The Rabbi, speaking symbolically, said "we all have Yaacov and Esav in us, fighting against each other, the yetzer ha tov and the yetzer ha ra" and it was the simplest thing ever, but people still misinterpreted it. Or chose to misinterpet it.

 

[visionary]

I'll tell you why Josephus didn't make the Italian connection, because he was writing for them and all his writings are slanted in that way.

You bring up a very good point regarding the slant.

 

[pinacled]

I think that today Edom is those foreigners on the land. Those who claim rights who don't belong there.

Prophecy to the Mountains of Israel

eZkiel 36:1Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the L-RD: 2Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession: 3Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people: 4Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord G-D; Thus saith the Lord G-D to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about; 5Therefore thus saith the Lord G-D; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea (EDOM), which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey. 6Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: 7Therefore thus saith the Lord G-D; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. 8But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. 9For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: 11And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the L-RD. 12Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations; 14Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord G-D. 15Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord G-D.

It is interesting to note in this prophecy that only Edom is mentioned among all the nations.

I was just having a discussion about the 7 mountains in Revelation. And then thought back to the Mountains names and what message is pertained to each. Not sure if this is significant.
Also the curse of tiling the ground and the 7:1 on the Ark. Clean vs unclean count of beast.
I keep seeing a relation between Genesis and Revelation.
Blessings and curses?
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

interested in the variations at the moment. Still thought this would be considerable and in context to Edom. Many waters and all.
From what I have learned Water represents the Soul. A said amount of water and said amount of salt. If the water depletes the salt remains increasing the salinity. If the water increases the fresher it becomes.
An analogy at best.
But then back to Genesis the firmament is divided.
The beast is said to come out of the sea(salt) Was thinking salt water upon land and the effects.
All the rivers flow into the sea, Yet the sea is not full. To the place where the rivers flow, There they flow again. (8) All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor is the ear filled with hearing.