Edom from a Jewish Perspective - Is it Christianity?

[Josephus]

In my various studies, I have come across one topic that intrigues me to no end: that of the Jewish belief that Edom in prophetic application refers to Christianity. I have found it difficult to refute, as I often come back to it as referring to a type of Christianity that rejects the Torah - like Esau did when he rejected his birthright.

Has anyone else come across this? Can someone back up the claim?

I also believe in the prophecy given to Rebekah that "through Jacob" ie through Messiah, that Esau and Jacob will finally be reconciled.

Furthermore, I am interested in examining that if Edom is a prophetic reference to what became Christianity, how the prophecies concerning Edom therefore apply...

Thoughts?

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Do you have some links?

 

[Josephus]

1st google ref for

Edom Christianity

http://www.jewish-history.com/cresson/cresson25.html

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Seems about right.

 

[Lulav]

Hi Josephus, nice to see you around these parts.

Have you ever heard Jonathan Cahn regarding Amelek?

Amelek is a descendant of Esau. His descendants are said to fight every generation against G-d and the Jewish people. I believe that Johnathan has given a great thesis on this. I believe that King Herod was also in that line. Supposed to be the King of Judea, yet we have the slaughter of the innocent to consider and events surrounding it. He murdered his own children and wives even.

By Christianities histories, hatred against the Jews can be traced down through history.
So I would further refine your post to not All Edom but from the line of Amelek, as that is in the Torah.

 

[BukiRob]

Seems about right.

Yep. Spot on.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Edom has historically been associated with the Roman Empire in older Jewish literature.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05562.html

 

[Elihoenai]

​

Mein Kampf

Mein Kampf (pronounced [maɪ̯n kampf], "My Struggle") is an autobiographical manifesto by National Socialist leader Adolf Hitler, in which he outlines his political ideology and future plans for Germany. Volume 1 of Mein Kampf was published in 1925 and Volume 2 in 1926.[1] The book was edited by Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

Genesis 25:21-23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

21 And Isaac maketh entreaty to Jehovah before his wife, for she [is] barren: and Jehovah is entreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceiveth,

22 and the children struggle together within her, and she saith, `If [it is] right -- why [am] I thus?' and she goeth to seek Jehovah.

23 And Jehovah saith to her, `Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two peoples from thy bowels are parted; and the [one] people than the [other] people is stronger; and the elder doth serve the younger.'



Genesis 25:29-30 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

29 And Jacob boileth pottage, and Esau cometh in from the field, and he [is] weary;

30 and Esau saith unto Jacob, `Let me eat, I pray thee, some of this red red thing, for I [am] weary;' therefore hath [one] called his name Edom [Red];

 

[pinacled]

The Native American tribes were persecuted in regards to this scriptures false interpretation. "Red man"
Tracing a blood lineage to seek an enemy is a bit strange to me.
But then again looking back at History and the early migrations of our common ancestors. Things do get a bit peculiar in a Spiritual aspect.

 

[pinacled]

The Native American tribes were persecuted in regards to this scriptures false interpretation. "Red man"
Tracing a blood lineage to seek an enemy is a bit strange to me.
But then again looking back at History and the early migrations of our common ancestors. Things do get a bit peculiar in a Spiritual aspect.

The thing About the false prophet and beast is that they are tools of that old Serpent.
Diversions.
Revelation tells what it Looks like and where it is.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

 

[Lulav]

The Native American tribes were persecuted in regards to this scriptures false interpretation. "Red man"
Tracing a blood lineage to seek an enemy is a bit strange to me.
But then again looking back at History and the early migrations of our common ancestors. Things do get a bit peculiar in a Spiritual aspect.

Are you speaking about Adom? not sure what you are saying about false interpretations of scripture?

WE aren't seeking enemies here, I wasn't anyway, but it is in Torah so if G-d said this will happen I need to believe it.

8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. 9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. 10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses' hands [were] heavy; and they took a stone, and put [it] under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. 13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

14 And the L-RD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
16 For he said, Because the L-RD hath sworn [that] the L-RD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Amalek and the one who rules him has war against G-d through his people. You can see the spiritual thorugh the material.

Another example is in Ezekiel when the L-RD tells him to speak to the Prince of Tyre and then the King of Tyre.

WE first read about the 'Prince of Tyre'.

Prophecy against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.


We can see by this reading that the human ruler of Tyre called the 'Prince' here had exulted himself and wanted to be worshiped as G-d. The influence was satanic.

Now in the next part we read about the 'King' of Tyre. A King is higher than a Prince but this wording is used to show that there is a ruler over the Prince but it is not G-d but the fallen one.

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The things I highlighted above show this could be a man being spoken of, there was only one man in Gan Eden, Adam and no man is called a kerub, or keruv, this is the one ruling the Prince of Tyre and his doom is foretold.

 

[pinacled]

Are you speaking about Adom? not sure what you are saying about false interpretations of scripture?

WE aren't seeking enemies here, I wasn't anyway, but it is in Torah so if G-d said this will happen I need to believe it.

8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. 9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. 10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses' hands [were] heavy; and they took a stone, and put [it] under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. 13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

14 And the L-RD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
16 For he said, Because the L-RD hath sworn [that] the L-RD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Amalek and the one who rules him has war against G-d through his people. You can see the spiritual thorugh the material.

Another example is in Ezekiel when the L-RD tells him to speak to the Prince of Tyre and then the King of Tyre.

WE first read about the 'Prince of Tyre'.

Prophecy against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.


We can see by this reading that the human ruler of Tyre called the 'Prince' here had exulted himself and wanted to be worshiped as G-d. The influence was satanic.

Now in the next part we read about the 'King' of Tyre. A King is higher than a Prince but this wording is used to show that there is a ruler over the Prince but it is not G-d but the fallen one.

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The things I highlighted above show this could be a man being spoken of, there was only one man in Gan Eden, Adam and no man is called a kerub, or keruv, this is the one ruling the Prince of Tyre and his doom is foretold.

Thank you for the Post.
Ezekiel 28, Whew...Love it.

I thought Amalek had a deeper meaning. Like Babylon, Egypt, Cain, Esua. And so on.
In a way an exponential scale.
16 For he said, Because the L-RD hath sworn [that] the L-RD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Adam, Eve, serpent.
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.' {S}

Petty deep.

But seeing paganism in Catholicism,
and other congregations is sad. For so many to be fooled.

 

[pinacled]

4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

I looked deeper into this one. If Cain lived by the seed of the serpent. Was this spiritual? 2 brothers one good one evil?
Is this a lesson of the war?
Tiller of the Ground stood out to me.
Where as Able was a keeper of sheep. And then after murdering his Brother Cain replies am I my brothers keeper.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
Here is another that stood out.
Cain bought forth fruit of the ground.
If the ground is cursed. Cain did not follow the will of the Father.
Yeshua/Jesus
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Eventually you get to civilization at a large scale. With 2 kinds of seeds. Then you look at the current condition of living.
It sure is peculiar. How the hierarchy organizations and ruling authorities serve mammon. Power corrupts.
Even a Jewish perspective should understand this.
Are Christian blameless? Are Jewish perspectives blameless?
Treat the disease not the symptoms. Maybe with some leaves for the healing of the nations.
Hallelujah.

 

[Elihoenai]

Bloody! Bloody! Bloody!
Oh, How Bloody!

​

Positive Christianity in Nazi ideology

Positive Christianity was highly supported by the Nazi movement, which promoted its ideals in its journals Der Stürmer and Völkischer Beobachter, both of which stressed the "Nordic" character of Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity#Positive_Christianity_in_Nazi_ideology

Genesis 4:9-10 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

9 And Jehovah saith unto Cain, `Where [is] Abel thy brother?' and he saith, `I have not known; my brother's keeper -- I?'

10 And He saith, `What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood is crying unto Me from the ground;



Isaiah 34:1-3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

34 Come near, ye nations, to hear, And ye peoples, give attention, Hear doth the earth and its fulness, The world, and all its productions.

2 For wrath [is] to Jehovah against all the nations, And fury against all their host, He hath devoted them to destruction, He hath given them to slaughter.

3 And their wounded are cast out, And their carcases cause their stench to ascend, And melted have been mountains from their blood.

 

[Lulav]

Thank you for the Post.
Ezekiel 28, Whew...Love it.

I thought Amalek had a deeper meaning. Like Babylon, Egypt, Cain, Esua. And so on.
In a way an exponential scale.
16 For he said, Because the L-RD hath sworn [that] the L-RD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Adam, Eve, serpent.
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.' {S}

Petty deep.

But seeing paganism in Catholicism,
and other congregations is sad. For so many to be fooled.

Yep you got the connection.

 

[Hoshiyya]

My old thread on Edom being connected to Germany and Italy in Talmud:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-germany-or-italy-edom.7858078/

 

[Hoshiyya]

Here is an extract from a post of mine in this thread:

For me, the identification of Edom with various European nations has always been interesting, as well as problematic. On the one hand, many sources, from Josephus to Josippon and Jerahmeel, give detailed lists, identifying existing nations with their Biblical forefathers. [1]

Italians, or more specifically the Romans near the Tiber, are identified as Kittim in Midrash Sefer Ha-Yashar. The same book identifies Tubal with the Sabines of Tuscany.

Tradition identifies Germany as Ashkenaz. Hence the term for German Jewry is "Ashkenazi Jews". (By later development, north and east European Jews, including Russian Jews, are called Ashkenazim.)

In practice it seems "Edom" is used like "Babylon" is often used, as a term for an "evil nation" in a generic sense.
Nevertheless, Edom is in some sense or other correlated to specifically - out of all the nations in the world - Italy and Germany, in various traditional literature. Rabbis mention it surprisingly frequently in lectures. [2]

It becomes logical to ask:
If Germany is Edom, why are German Jews called "Ashkenazi Jews" rather than "Edomi Jews" ?

And furthermore:
Why doesn't Josephus, Josippon or related literature identify Germany and/or Rome with Edom, when the Talmud, and so many Rabbis, make this connection ?

Let's look at the 'blessing' of Esau for a moment, to see if it helps clarify the issue:

“Your dwelling will be
away from the earth’s richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.
You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck.”

(Br. 29:39-40)

Does this sound like a desription of Italy ?
Or Germany ?

Historical Edom/Esau was situated in parts of what is now Jordan, as I understand. The prediction above certainly seems more appropriate to that, than to Italy or Germany. I must admit I am flummoxed by the correlation of either of these two nations to Edom.

It seems to me Jordan actually encompasses three of the Biblical nations: Edom, Moab and Ammon all seem to have had their territory within what is now called the state of Jordan.


[1] I haven't read all of Josippon or Jerahmeel, but I have read the parts specifically dealing with genealogy and the "table of nations", and as I recall there was made no connection of Germany or Italy to Esau.

[2] One went as far as saying "all of Europe is Esav", which is a problematic statement even if meant as hyperbole. The same Rabbi nevertheless identified, at different times, both the Romans and the Germans as being from Esau, so again, Italy and Germany are the main targets.

 

[Open Heart]

Around the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion, sages such as Rabbi Meir began associating Rome with Edom. This is the most tenuous jump. It is based on kind of iffy interpretations of scripture. Rome became the Roman Catholic Church, which in turn represents to Jews Christianity in general. So yes, to Jews, Christianity is Edom. This is what I was taught as an Orthodox Jew.

 

[Hoshiyya]

It has been suggested that Edom was identified with Rome because of Herod the Idumean being a Roman vassal, which is quite interesting.

The connection might also be largely based on both the Romans and the Edomites having the eagle as their symbol.

Other than this, nothing seems to fit or connect them, prophetically or otherwise.

Edom is prophetically described as being under the yoke of Israel, and dwelling in an unfruitful land, and later when Israel is attacked by Babylon, Edom is described as not helping Israel, but are not described as an actual invading force, like Rome historically was.

 

[visionary]

MEDRISH “YALKUT SHIMONI” (Yeshiya 60):

“Rabbi Yitzhak said: The year that Melech HaMoshiach will be revealed, all the kings of the nations of the world will provoke each other. The king of Persia [in modern times they changed the name of their country to “Iran”] will threaten the king of Arabia [today called “Saudi” Arabia] and because of this the king of Arabia will go to the king of Edom [USA] for advice.

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/07/15/jewish-prophecy-the-king-of-persia-will-destroy-the-world/