Edenic Authority

Gregorikos

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Complementarianism, as taught by John Piper and Wayne Grudem, teaches that God gave the man authority over the woman in the Garden of Eden, prior to the fall, and that Genesis 3:16 describes a perversion of God's good intention of Adam's loving leadership prior to the fall.

Egalitarians, of course, typically point out that there is no direct evidence of male authority over the woman in the first two chapters of Genesis, and from that we conclude that the man and the woman were equal.

But the Harper Collins Study Bible has an entirely different take in the notes in Genesis chapter 3.

3.6 The woman’s desire is physical, aesthetic, and intellectual. She is the focus of the story as she exercises her will, while the man is her passive cohort, described as her husband, who was with her. The woman’s command over the man will be reversed in v. 16, the curse of (and justification for) male authority. Genesis 3:6 (HC SB)

3.14–19 God’s punishments reverse the order of the interrogation. They also reverse the conditions that led to the humans’ transgression. The snake will henceforth be humbled and alienated from the woman and her descendants. This explains why snakes crawl on their belly and why humans have an innate revulsion to them. The woman is punished with painful labor in childbirth, which seems to be a negative correlate to the discovery of sexuality. She is also cursed with male authority, which reverses her previous command over the man. The man (Hebrew ’adam) is now punished with painful labor on the unfruitful ground (’adamah) for food, reversing his previous easy relationship with the fruit and ground of Eden. Moreover, the man is told that he will return to the ground (’adamah, v. 19). Man seems to have been made mortal (from the dust of the ground, 2.7), but henceforth he will be conscious of his mortality, another addition to his self-knowledge. Genesis 3:14 (HC SB)

I've never seen these points raised any place else. On the plus side, I'd say there is more evidence for this idea than the one put forth by the complementarians. That would explain the serpent dealing with Eve rather than Adam, and her leadership in 3:1-6.

But unless I'm missing something, that's pretty thin. Has anyone ever seen this position put forth by anyone else?
 

Citizen of the Kingdom

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3.6 The woman’s desire is physical, aesthetic, and intellectual. She is the focus of the story as she exercises her will, while the man is her passive cohort, described as her husband, who was with her. The woman’s command over the man will be reversed in v. 16, the curse of (and justification for) male authority.Genesis 3:6 (HC SB)
The male in the garden was reprimanded for listening to his wife (following bad advise ?) while Abraham was commanded by God to do as his wife said (implying listen to good advise?)
3.14–19 God’s punishments reverse the order of the interrogation. They also reverse the conditions that led to the humans’ transgression. The snake will henceforth be humbled and alienated from the woman and her descendants.
I believe it says the snake will be overcome, but has dominion for a set time over those who do not control it, as repeated to Cain. (on satan’s food chain unless one can rise above it)
This explains why snakes crawl on their belly and why humans have an innate revulsion to them. The woman is punished with painful labor in childbirth, which seems to be a negative correlate to the discovery of sexuality.
Mankind is saved thru much suffering, but the overcoming is rebirth
She is also cursed with male authority, which reverses her previous command over the man. The man (Hebrew ’adam) is now punished with painful labor on the unfruitful ground (’adamah) for food, reversing his previous easy relationship with the fruit and ground of Eden.
The earth is also in birth pains to be relieved of the curse.
Moreover, the man is told that he will return to the ground (’adamah, v. 19). Man seems to have been made mortal (from the dust of the ground, 2.7), but henceforth he will be conscious of his mortality, another addition to his self-knowledge. Genesis 3:14 (HC SB)
Quickening of the mortal body for all those found in Him.
 
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Gregorikos

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The male in the garden was reprimanded for listening to his wife (following bad advise ?) while Abraham was commanded by God to do as his wife said (implying listen to good advise?)
I believe it says the snake will be overcome, but has dominion for a set time over those who do not control it, as repeated to Cain. (on satan’s food chain unless one can rise above it)
Mankind is saved thru much suffering, but the overcoming is rebirth
The earth is also in birth pains to be relieved of the curse. Quickening of the mortal body for all those found in Him.

All good. But my point was that the Harper Collins Study Bible is suggesting a pre-fall hierarchical relationship with Eve as the leader. Have you ever heard that before?
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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All good. But my point was that the Harper Collins Study Bible is suggesting a pre-fall hierarchical relationship with Eve as the leader. Have you ever heard that before?
No I haven’t ... except perhaps in Mythology ... Lilith was the pre-existent counterpart of Lucifer ... but I don’t know anything about her supposed role ... the only thing that I have heard about Lilith is that the old mesopotanean system of house building always buried an icon of her under one corner of the house. Other than that there’s the old Amazon mythology but ... no, I haven’t heard Christianity speak about it.

Who publishes Harper Collin?
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Speaking of mythology, there’s some interesting connections in the bible to the Greek times, that surround Aquila falling from the sky, Apollo as the god who affords help and wards off evil; various epithets call him the "averter of evil" (which was the effect they were hoping for in burying Lilith under the corner foundation.

Biblically speaking it was Aquila’s counterpart Priscilla who corrected Apollo’s learning from law to grace during the transitory time of John the Baptist, who is least in the Kingdom.

The intriguing part :

1 Cor 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

1 Cor 16:12
As touching our brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren: but his will was not at all to come at this time; but he will come when he shall have convenient time.

Titus 3:13
Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.

The only mention ever of the lawyer.
 
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tdidymas

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Complementarianism, as taught by John Piper and Wayne Grudem, teaches that God gave the man authority over the woman in the Garden of Eden, prior to the fall, and that Genesis 3:16 describes a perversion of God's good intention of Adam's loving leadership prior to the fall.

Egalitarians, of course, typically point out that there is no direct evidence of male authority over the woman in the first two chapters of Genesis, and from that we conclude that the man and the woman were equal.

But the Harper Collins Study Bible has an entirely different take in the notes in Genesis chapter 3.





I've never seen these points raised any place else. On the plus side, I'd say there is more evidence for this idea than the one put forth by the complementarians. That would explain the serpent dealing with Eve rather than Adam, and her leadership in 3:1-6.

But unless I'm missing something, that's pretty thin. Has anyone ever seen this position put forth by anyone else?
It sounds like Feminist bias to me. The fact is, Paul in 1 Tim. cites men having authority over women because Adam was created before Eve. This doesn't mean that man can "command the woman," because the authority is spiritual in nature, which implies the man's submission to God's order. It's also interesting to note that the fallen nature, which is described as "they knew they were naked," did not happen until after Adam ate the fruit, which implies the fallen nature came through his sin, not Eve's.
TD:)
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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It sounds like Feminist bias to me. The fact is, Paul in 1 Tim. cites men having authority over women because Adam was created before Eve. This doesn't mean that man can "command the woman," because the authority is spiritual in nature, which implies the man's submission to God's order. It's also interesting to note that the fallen nature, which is described as "they knew they were naked," did not happen until after Adam ate the fruit, which implies the fallen nature came through his sin, not Eve's.
TD:)
Anything spiritual in nature does not include the flesh. Once we looked at Jesus that way but no more.
 
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Gregorikos

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It sounds like Feminist bias to me. The fact is, Paul in 1 Tim. cites men having authority over women because Adam was created before Eve. This doesn't mean that man can "command the woman," because the authority is spiritual in nature, which implies the man's submission to God's order. It's also interesting to note that the fallen nature, which is described as "they knew they were naked," did not happen until after Adam ate the fruit, which implies the fallen nature came through his sin, not Eve's.
TD:)

1 Timothy does NOT cite men having authority over women. It forbids "a woman" from having an abusive authority over "a man." It nowhere grants that a man can have that kind of authority over a woman. (You're referring to 1 Timothy 2:12 in case you need the reference.)

And before you come back to dispute that, let me point out that you are in the Egalitarian Forum. We have certain rules here which must be adhered to in this forum. Linky Thingy
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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HarperCollins publishes the Harper Collins Study Bible. HarperCollins owns Zondervan and Thomas Nelson.
I used to have a study program from Thomas Nelson and I’ve never read anything like that from their old programs.
 
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Gregorikos

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I can’t report this myself but it should be for violating forum rules. Implications as to anything other than Christ as the head of anything implies that males are God and frankly you are not. Paul viewed everything from the viewpoint of the Father, and applied it to the analogy of marriage. Note: a n a l o g y

I can and did.
 
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Gregorikos

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I used to have a study program from Thomas Nelson and I’ve never read anything like that from their old programs.

HarperCollins is huge and publishes many different viewpoints. The HCSB is considered legit and is apparently used widely in schools. Obviously THIS viewpoint isn't common. I was just wondering where it came from... who else believes it.... are there books? There MUST be.
 
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bekkilyn

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HarperCollins is huge and publishes many different viewpoints. The HCSB is considered legit and is apparently used widely in schools. Obviously THIS viewpoint isn't common. I was just wondering where it came from... who else believes it.... are there books? There MUST be.

I would be interested in what you discover.
 
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Gregorikos

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I would be interested in what you discover.

Here is what I know so far. I asked a significant professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. This was her response to me:

Hi, Greg. I’ve never seen this view. But it has the feel of a Mary Daly and other uber radical feminists. Many are more unisex. But this smacks of Women = Superior. Fortunately, most rad feminists don’t think that. Sadly, some of the most radical wanted to go to seminary at a time before the sound schools allowed women. So guess where they got their educations....
 
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bekkilyn

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Here is what I know so far. I asked a significant professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. This was her response to me:

Hi, Greg. I’ve never seen this view. But it has the feel of a Mary Daly and other uber radical feminists. Many are more unisex. But this smacks of Women = Superior. Fortunately, most rad feminists don’t think that. Sadly, some of the most radical wanted to go to seminary at a time before the sound schools allowed women. So guess where they got their educations....

That does make some sense if that's where the idea is coming from. I don't really see it as any different than the misogynistic imaginations of the complementarians in their ongoing quest to make men superior over women, so perhaps they kind of balance each other out. :)

When we take scripture as a whole and Jesus's good news message, the gospel really can't be anything other than egalitarian. It's simply outside of God's character.
 
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