Economic Disparity

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So when nearly everything is credit (our capital is slowly dying which is reflected in the super low interest rates) then the risk for 'investments' is masked. The investor doesn't know if it will be profitable, they just know all the indexes are going up. But a lot of that credit was used in consumption, stock buybacks are a very good example of consumption, the bonds the corps issue are then used to buy back stock, that's pure consumption it's not investing in new hardware, or employees or research and development.

The CEOS then make a lot of money through the financial engineering which is all based off of credit, not productivity.
We live in a world of fiat money. All money is created via credit. It will collapse, guaranteed. I don't think anybody really argues that. The goal of the government is to just stave off the inevitable for as long as possible.

One way to do that is via monetizing the debt. It doesn't make those to whom the money is owed to happy, but that is mostly just those outside the closed loop within the particular country's economy. In the case of the US dollar, it would be countries like China, to whom we owe a lot of money.

So they try to monetize it slowly. This is why there is a push for a minimum wage. When you raise the floor, all you do is decrease the value of the money. And if you owe a lot of money, this is a good thing to happen.

So our economy is dependent on growth. Problem is, this means we need either outside markets to grow, or our own population to grow. Look at Japan as an example of why this is important. This is one reason so many countries are letting in so many middle eastern refugees. They need the population size to support the economy, even if it means more of their women get raped. At least the economy doesn't collapse.
 
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Albion

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The CEOS then make a lot of money through the financial engineering which is all based off of credit, not productivity.
FWIW, when I used the word productivity, I was not referring to crafting a widget for sale, but to doing something to earn ones income. There is certainly an argument to be made for those who work hard and work at something that yields profits (even if it's in the area of credit), as opposed to unskilled labor that is going to be less well compensated--or no labor at all.
 
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That sounds like a call to abdicate the clear Christian mandate to seek justice in the world.
Well, it's not. I think of it as a sort of "think globally but act locally" sort of thing. Jesus himself said we will always have the poor with us. But I don't see that as instruction to not bother helping the poor. Rather, it is acknowledging that we are in a lost and fallen world, but we can still impact the part over which we have influence.
 
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Doulosiesou

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Well, it's not. I think of it as a sort of "think globally but act locally" sort of thing. Jesus himself said we will always have the poor with us. But I don't see that as instruction to not bother helping the poor. Rather, it is acknowledging that we are in a lost and fallen world, but we can still impact the part over which we have influence.

Yah personally I think it's better to create opportunities instead of creating programs to try and re-distribute the wealth. We're all so ensconced in decades long socialism we've lost sight of want real free markets look like, and the overall prosperity they bring.

As you said it's a fiat money system controlled by banks and finance. Government likes it that way because they can deficit spend ad infinitum, but we live in a real world with real limits. I guess the question is when do we actually hit those limits?
 
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Yah personally I think it's better to create opportunities instead of creating programs to try and re-distribute the wealth. We're all so ensconced in decades long socialism we've lost sight of want real free markets look like, and the overall prosperity they bring.

As you said it's a fiat money system controlled by banks and finance. Government likes it that way because they can deficit spend ad infinitum, but we live in a real world with real limits. I guess the question is when do we actually hit those limits?
It gets a lot worse than that. If you have amazon prime, you can watch "Poverty Inc." for free. Check out the trailer on youtube.

We are destroying the lives of people in poor countries by "helping" them.
 
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Yekcidmij

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When I was a young man in the 60s, it was typical that a CEO made about ten times what the lowest paid full time worker in his company made. That seems to me to be not unfair.

What's fair seems to be the agreed price of a voluntary exchange. In the case of a CEO, he exchanges his services for a price negotiated with the board, who represent the shareholders. If the shareholders want to give the CEO a ridiculous sum of money, it's their money to do with as they want. It's fair because they're giving it the CEO in a voluntary exchange for his services. It hardly matters if I like it or not and would be unfair if I got to determine how other people spend their own money, especially if the reason for doing so were simply because it was way more than my income. It's theirs, not mine.

Now you could argue if such decisions were good business decisions or if the board were doing it's fiduciary duty, but if the exchange is an agreed voluntary exchange between the parties involved, then it's fair.

They are "paid" this but did they really "earn" it?

Yes, unless they stole it or somehow coerced it from someone else. They received it in a voluntary exchange. If the board determines the exchange should take place, and the CEO agrees, then the CEO "earned" the pay just as the shareholders "earned" his services. It's their capital and services to exchange as they deem best.
 
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Yekcidmij

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There is an opportunity cost to any loan (i.e. credit), as the income that will be devoted to paying principal and interest in the future could have been devoted to some other use or investment.

So borrowing money to purchase a product or an asset now means foregoing some future purchase.


Not necessarily. If a productive asset is bought, then it's productivity will be realized sooner meaning that you wouldn't have to forego future purchases, but would be able to purchase more than you would if you had abstained from the purchase. If you didn't have credit, you would have had to wait to access the productivity of that asset, which would be an opportunity cost. Opportunity costs can run both ways. The key, which the article does mention, is whether or not the asset is productive.

All assets are not equal, either. Some assets are riskier than others, with a less certain income stream or payoff. Borrowing to buy assets with predictable returns is one thing, buying assets with highly speculative returns is another; regardless of the eventual result of the investment, the borrower still has to pay interest on the debt, even if the speculative investment goes bust.
 
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I was listening to an interview this afternoon with an economic analyst. He pointed out that when it comes to employment there is no longer a free market because the whole system is constructed to favour the rich and powerful. His own words were that the system is "completely incestuous".
 
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I was listening to an interview this afternoon with an economic analyst. He pointed out that when it comes to employment there is no longer a free market because the whole system is constructed to favour the rich and powerful. His own words were that the system is "completely incestuous".

To demonstrate the incestuous nature of CEO and high level executive compensation consider NorTelCom. This company went bankrupt and was placed in receivership in 2009. To the best of my knowledge the workers not only lost their pension funds but they have not yet received their final pay cheque. However, every year since 2009 the CEO and other high level executives have not only collected their full pay but they have also collected their annual performance bonus. Excuse me, but this reeks of looting. This is emblematic of how things are conducted at the executive level.
 
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I was listening to an interview this afternoon with an economic analyst. He pointed out that when it comes to employment there is no longer a free market because the whole system is constructed to favour the rich and powerful. His own words were that the system is "completely incestuous".

There are a lot of problems with unemployment numbers. This site shows how they used to count unemployment before they changed the formulas during Bill Clinton's presidency:

sgs-emp.gif


Alternate Unemployment Charts

It has been hovering around 23% since the crisis in 2009. Basically I think they only count people who are currently on unemployment compensation, once they drop off that they drop out of the statistics.

Things aren't as great as the media and .gov say they are.
 
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Yekcidmij

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There are a lot of problems with unemployment numbers. This site shows how they used to count unemployment before they changed the formulas during Bill Clinton's presidency:

sgs-emp.gif


Alternate Unemployment Charts

It has been hovering around 23% since the crisis in 2009. Basically I think they only count people who are currently on unemployment compensation, once they drop off that they drop out of the statistics.

Things aren't as great as the media and .gov say they are.

I'm not saying ShadowStats is wrong, or isn't at least onto something worth considering, but it's important to understand that ShadowStats methods are questionable at best. From their explanation on their methodology:

"The ShadowStats number—a broad unemployment measure more in line with common experience—is my estimate. The approximation of the ShadowStats “long-term discouraged worker” category—those otherwise largely defined out of statistical existence in 1994—reflects proprietary modeling based on a variety of private and public surveying over the last two-plus decades. Beyond using the BLS U.6 estimate as an underlying monthly base, I have not found a way of accounting fully for the current unemployment circumstance and common experience using just the monthly headline data from the BLS." (http://www.shadowstats.com/article/c810x.pdf , Pg8)

So, take their data with a grain of salt since their data is admitedly a "proprietary modeled estimate," and without that model, it's data, their survey methodology, etc.. there is no way to verify the legitimacy of their chart. As such, I wouldn't use them as evidence of anything. I do however think it's worth discussing the decline in the Labor Force Participation Rate, which is publicly available data from the BLS.
 
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Doulosiesou

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I'm not saying ShadowStats is wrong, or isn't at least onto something worth considering, but it's important to understand that ShadowStats methods are questionable at best. From their explanation on their methodology:

"The ShadowStats number—a broad unemployment measure more in line with common experience—is my estimate. The approximation of the ShadowStats “long-term discouraged worker” category—those otherwise largely defined out of statistical existence in 1994—reflects proprietary modeling based on a variety of private and public surveying over the last two-plus decades. Beyond using the BLS U.6 estimate as an underlying monthly base, I have not found a way of accounting fully for the current unemployment circumstance and common experience using just the monthly headline data from the BLS." (http://www.shadowstats.com/article/c810x.pdf , Pg8)

So, take their data with a grain of salt since their data is admitedly a "proprietary modeled estimate," and without that model, it's data, their survey methodology, etc.. there is no way to verify the legitimacy of their chart. As such, I wouldn't use them as evidence of anything. I do however think it's worth discussing the decline in the Labor Force Participation Rate, which is publicly available data from the BLS.

I believe it is around 63%, so since 2009 it has been pretty much a solid drop of around 4%.

And those are 'bread winner jobs' correct? Also, do you happen to know what is the percentage of public workers in that figure? For instance fed, state, city employees would be what 15%?

So perhaps a civilian labor force participation rate of 48%?
 
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And those are 'bread winner jobs' correct? Also, do you happen to know what is the percentage of public workers in that figure? For instance fed, state, city employees would be what 15%?

You can probably find those here if nowhere else: Search Results | FRED | St. Louis Fed

It looks like federal workers are about 2.8mil or a little less than 1% of the pop. State and local were about 4.5%.

So perhaps a civilian labor force participation rate of 48%?

The LFPR is at about 63%. It's been declining since it's peak in around 1999 and it's anyone's theory why. It's probably largely due to the demographics of an aging population, but that may not be the only reason.

https://www.kansascityfed.org/OQpKY/publicat/econrev/pdf/12q1VanZandweghe.pdf

Demystifying the Decline in the Labor Force Participation Rate by Steven Capolarello :: SSRN

What we know—and don’t know—about the declining labor force participation rate

Why labor force participation rates may not rise anytime soon - AEI
 
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Doulosiesou

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You can probably find those here if nowhere else: Search Results | FRED | St. Louis Fed

It looks like federal workers are about 2.8mil or a little less than 1% of the pop. State and local were about 4.5%.



The LFPR is at about 63%. It's been declining since it's peak in around 1999 and it's anyone's theory why. It's probably largely due to the demographics of an aging population, but that may not be the only reason.

https://www.kansascityfed.org/OQpKY/publicat/econrev/pdf/12q1VanZandweghe.pdf

Demystifying the Decline in the Labor Force Participation Rate by Steven Capolarello :: SSRN

What we know—and don’t know—about the declining labor force participation rate

Why labor force participation rates may not rise anytime soon - AEI

Okay that's not as bad as I thought, so roughly 63% - 6% or 57% of the full time workers are in the private sector.

The reason I say that of course is the percentage of people who can actually contribute productivity towards servicing the national debt.
 
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Today , 2 January 2018, it is 10:40 AM. By noon today the highest paid CEOs in the United States and Canada will already have earned more than you or I will make in the entire year.

What does this say about our society?

Is this a healthy situation?

Is this just?

How long will this continue?

Will this lead to a major political shake up or revolution?

I think you're envious. If you want to make a lot of money, then do what it takes to accomplish it. But don't complain about people more successful than yourself. Don't expect hand-outs, either.
 
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I think you're envious. If you want to make a lot of money, then do what it takes to accomplish it. But don't complain about people more successful than yourself. Don't expect hand-outs, either.

I regard this post as sort of a mild ad hominem. I am retired and comfortable and have never envied the rich. I also have great respect for the entrepreneur, the inventor, the discoverer ---- all those who seek to understand and improve our world and our lot in it. They deserve generous compensation. The people who concern me are the greedy and the exploiters. No one deserves $100,000 a day (my annual pension is much less than that and I live very comfortably) and there are those who make much more than that. Back about 1960 the typical CEO made about ten times as much as his lowest paid full time employee. That seems fair. A thousand times as much is grossly excessive. Society has a way of rebalancing inequities but the cure can be as bad as the disease.
 
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I regard this post as sort of a mild ad hominem. I am retired and comfortable and have never envied the rich. I also have great respect for the entrepreneur, the inventor, the discoverer ---- all those who seek to understand and improve our world and our lot in it. They deserve generous compensation. The people who concern me are the greedy and the exploiters. No one deserves $100,000 a day (my annual pension is much less than that and I live very comfortably) and there are those who make much more than that. Back about 1960 the typical CEO made about ten times as much as his lowest paid full time employee. That seems fair. A thousand times as much is grossly excessive. Society has a way of rebalancing inequities but the cure can be as bad as the disease.

Yah well the primary reason is that banks can issue non-secured credit. That is they can make loans without having the original capital.

That's why CEOs can make such outrageous salaries, because all that printed up money flows into stocks, bonds, real estate, etc it has no basis in the real world. But one day there will be a wake up call and everything will re-adjust. That's called a correction, and in our case a correction 40 years in the making.

The fed issues loans to member banks at near zero rates of interest, then those banks make loans to corporations at slightly higher rates but still much lower than what the economy would price based on production. The corporations can also issue bonds at super low rates of interest, they then use the proceeds from those bond sales to buy back their stock reducing the float which drives prices higher.

The fed has also been buying stocks, this is all subsidies, artificial that wouldn't exist if the market set interest rates and if banks were forced to lend fully secured. It's financial engineering, it's allowed because people have so much money invested in the stock market for their retirement.

It's a massive amount of mal-investment, but as I said one day it will come crashing down like it did in the first great depression. When? I have no idea but they can't keep the ball rolling much further I'd think but who knows.
 
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