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Eating meat = huge risk

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by CXW17, Jul 2, 2021.

  1. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    Is your advocacy limited to sharing your perspective or are you addressing the issue practically? Not only educating others but contributing resources to lessen the divide.

    ~bella
     
  2. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    I advocate where i can, and I've gone through the process of eliminating meat from my diet. I'm not involved in activism - I feel bad about that. I may do more for the animal rights movement in future. All I'm doing is pointing out moral inconsistencies. There is a deep flaw in our moral reasoning.
    I suppose my own moral reasoning is flawed in the sense that i should be a more militant activist - not just waging war at the keyboard. If I really believe that sentient beings are being harmed, I should be more active. I'm on a journey at any rate. I'll get there.
     
  3. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    Speaking of 'moral inconsistencies':

    Another Challenge for Ethical Eating: Plants Want to Live, Too - The New York Times

    "But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to ‘committed vegetarians’ and ‘strong ethical vegans,’ we might consider that plants no more aspire to being stir-fried in a wok than a hog aspires to being peppercorn-studded in my Christmas clay pot. This is not meant as a trite argument or a chuckled aside. Plants are lively and seek to keep it that way. The more that scientists learn about the complexity of plants — their keen sensitivity to the environment, the speed with which they react to changes in the environment, and the extraordinary number of tricks that plants will rally to fight off attackers and solicit help from afar — the more impressed researchers become, and the less easily we can dismiss plants as so much fiberfill backdrop, passive sunlight collectors on which deer, antelope and vegans can conveniently graze. It’s time for a green revolution, a reseeding of our stubborn animal minds."
     
  4. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    Veganism is about reducing harm as much as possible. Starvation is a rather extreme measure.
     
  5. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    But I do get it. Humans have been eating meat for donkey's years. It's second nature at this point. I'm not expecting anyone to just stop eating meat overnight. My hope is that people will start by recognising the high sentience of the animals we eat.
    I was pescatarian for a while, and I treated fish like medicine. I ate it prayerfully and appreciated the sacrifice. The animals that we eat give their lives for us. It's tragic that we commodify them. I did return to veganism, but I think that we have to at least have that kind of attitude if we do consume meat.
     
  6. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    What's your main objection to vegetarianism/veganism etc?
     
  7. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    That's not for me to judge. Only you can. :)

    It isn't my 'cause' but I'm cognizant of the issues with food production in America. I worked on an organic farm and at a specialty retailer while attending culinary school. I've given talks on food inequality. And I'm a slow living adherent. We have an eco-friendly lifestyle. Not only in our diet but in our home and clothing choices.

    As a designer that means sustainable fashion, fair wages, and working conditions. There's a human context that can't be ignored. That's what's missing in this conversation. We have several pages of arguments about animals but what about your neighbor? How is He glorified through your advocacy?

    All I hear is this is best and you should do it too. Not how you've helped others who are interested in doing the same to reach that point. There are Christians who have a specific mandate for health and wellness. Some are called to the world and others to the flock. They're not hiding away.

    They're educating others and sharing their experiences. So they may partake of the blessing. That's how it looks when God is in it. It's bigger than your convictions.

    This isn't addressed to you per se. I'm articulating things I've noticed in this thread and others like it.

    ~bella
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  8. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    Starvation isn't the only other option. The Jains basically nailed it, leaving vegetarians and vegans in their dust as far as ethical eating goes. This was touched upon earlier in this thread (see post #7).

    I have no objections to either one whatsoever.

    I do object, however, to people equating those who don’t choose that way of eating as killing for the sake of their taste buds (again, that reads like something right out of the ISKCON playbook). Unless one is a Jain, death is going to be part of the dietary equation.
     
  9. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    Sure, it's a little reductive, but it's perfectly logical.

    1) Meat isn't necessary for most humans. You can eat a vegetarian diet without supplementation or a vegan diet with supplementation. In both cases you can thrive. Not everyone will, but many are capable of flourishing.

    2) People still choose to eat meat, presumably because it tastes good. There are other reasons, such as convenience, time, availability, and culinary skills of course. The primary motivation for many however is the taste.

    I'm not sure what is particularly objectionable about that line of reasoning.

    It is not quite helpful to speak in moral absolute, though It's rather hard not to with an issue like this. I'm trying to pare away the emotion and boil this down to the bare essentials. I'd appreciate it if you would directly address the issues I've raised.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  10. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    I'm a huge advocate for fair working conditions in electronics and fashion. It's vitally important agreed. in general, I really care about rights and the reduction of suffering across the board. For me it's not limited to the human domain.

    I have on other threads spoken to people about the idea of reducing their meat consumption. Safly that is also problematic. A post ago I mentioned an approach which involves eating meat prayerfully, recognising the signficance of another being giving up its life for our sustenance. I may take this approach to my diet too. I believe that even plant life possesses vital qualities .That has to be extinguished for me to live.

    These are ways people can eat more compassionately. Eating compassionately is about the entire supply chain - you're right. It encompasses everything from climate change to worker's rights and animal rights. I had to stop eating/drinking coconut milk a while back for example because monkeys were being abused to harvest the coconuts.Rooibos is harvested in some pretty unsustainable ways. Chocolate has been implicated in human rights violations.
     
  11. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    Everything under the heavens He created is sacred. He gives a burden for some things more than others. Through that burden and our service the world is bettered. There are things I regard in my person. Like an organic diet. It's a personal conviction. But food in itself is an avenue for ministering to the lost and entertaining friends and family.

    Whereas sustainable practices elicit a different response. Human exploitation pains me greatly. I can't stop it. But I can make sure I'm not part of the problem and demonstrate alternatives to the populace.

    I'm not one to evangelize. I prefer a love-based exemplary approach. Where love is foremost and I share what works for me. That allows them to glean as they will. Change rarely occurs through one person. Being a contributor is enough. I don't need to convince them. When the time is right they'll make the shift if He wills it.

    A couple of weeks ago I received a holy download. It unfolded before my eyes like a stream of consciousness. Virginia Woolf style! The snippet I shared is the blueprint for the channel I've been contemplating.

    If something stirs me deeply as you've described, I ask the Lord what He wants me to do with it. Maybe you should do the same. :)

    ~bella
     
  12. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    The fashion industry causes me a lot of pain. I try to focus on the good and the people who are making a difference. The intersection with entertainment makes it worse.

    Infusing contemplative practices could be helpful. There are no coincidences. ;)

    Sometimes I wonder if this is real or I'm in the matrix and swallowed the wrong pill.

    ~bella
     
  13. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    There is truth in what you say. Perhaps with an issue like this it is the only way. I'll ponder it. There is perhaps a better way to approach this. I think the CRT debates illustrate this finely. The polarisation in the church is intensifying mainly because of an evangelical approach taken by people on both sides.
    Great diplomatic chops btw
     
  14. bèlla

    bèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    Thank you.

    Maybe the point of your involvement was to receive the nugget and see the connection and how the convergence would glorify Him and edify others.

    Bringing the holy to the subject.
    Bringing the holy to fashion.

    See what I mean? :)

    ~bella
     
  15. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    I've directly addressed the issues you have raised.
    We will have to agree to disagree.
    When you've adopted the Jain diet, please let me know.
    They're the only ones who are truly qualified to preach on this topic. :)
     
  16. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    -
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  17. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    An animal being hunted or slaughtered is not murdered. Murder is a unique to humans.

    Genesis 9:3
    Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.
    God gave us meat to eat, that's good enough for me.


    No one will think less of you if you wish to be a vegetarian, but you however do not have the right to think less of us for eating meat.
    Romans 14:2
    4 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
    Might want to think on that.
     
  18. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    Yes, it was addressed. Not to your liking, perhaps, but it was addressed.

    Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree.

    Again, the Jain are only ones who are truly qualified to preach on this topic. It’s also noteworthy that none of the vegans/vegetarians in this discussion seem willing to touch the Jain aspect of all this with a ten-foot-pole. Whenever they’re brought up (and this isn’t my first rodeo when it comes to this topic), it seems the veg(itari)ans just don’t want to go there.

    Of course you’ll have more to say on this (that’s how online forums are, what with beating dead horses and such), but my mind was made up on this a long time ago.
     
  19. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    Rather a brutal idiom that.

    Thanks for taking time to engage with me anyway. Open dialogue is important. Discussion opens the door to reconcilliation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  20. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Well-Known Member

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    Certainly, no one should judge anyone else. That comment does however pressupose that eating meat is a harmless activity. If by 'thinking less of' you mean making a negative ethical determination about the behaviour.

    From the herbivorous perspective, we see sentient beings suffering. We speak out about this as anyone would in the same situation.

    Were this a debate about human-human murder, it would not be seen as preachy. This is only because it is unilaterally accepted to be wrong.

    We herbivores could perhaps be more tolerant. As i've said before, we're dealing with millennia-old dietary practices. On the other side omnivores also would do well to try and understand the clear ethical delineations we're driven by. For me it comes down to unecessary suffering. I don't need meat to survive or even thrive, so I can't justify causing suffering to obtain it. This is how stark the ethical issue is. When reasoned this way, the conclusion feels inescapable.

    I know that my main hope is that people will think of meat consumption as an almost sacred activity. Our food animals offer up lives and agonies for our sustenance. It would be amazing if many would go further, but this would alleviate so much suffering.
     
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