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Featured Eating dairy

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by treefencecar, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. treefencecar

    treefencecar New Member

    In Relationship
    I became a vegetarian a few years ago for animal welfare reasons but continued eating dairy and eggs. My girlfriend said she had no issue with this change in my diet but said she would have an issue if I also cut out dairy and eggs.

    About a month ago I read that christians should be vegans - links below. Since then I stopped eating dairy. At first my fiancée thought I had simply changed my diet but now she has realised I have in fact cut out dairy. She worries it will affect my health and she worries that it will affect our pastimes. For example our main pastime is trying different foods such as ice creams and cheeses. As I don't drink alcohol and don't eat meat this pastime has already been affected.

    She is very unhappy with my decision but she does not know it is due to my faith as she does not know I am religious. She knows I believe in God but she does not know that this forms a big part of my life.

    She is very firmly telling me that she has no problem with me reducing dairy in my diet but she does not want to be in a relationship with me if don't eat dairy at all. This puts me at odds with my faith. We could split up but we are expecting a child.

    I suppose my question is - should I simply reduce dairy in my diet rather than cut it out altogether? Is there any part of the Bible which supports this?
  2. hengesthorsa

    hengesthorsa Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

    United States
    I don't see the links.

    Without seeing the links and knowing more -- I can say that most Christians do not observe vegetarian or vegan diets. I observe a vegetarian diet myself, but I do not think this is required of a Christian.

    I personally would advise you to consult a priest or pastor in your tradition, as I get the feeling from your post that you may be going about this a little strenuously, and that in itself may stress your girlfriend.

    The other part of your post that makes me think you should look at your whole situation rather than just dairy products is that your girlfriend doesn't know you are religious. It seems you may want to change this.

    So, given what you've said:

    1) speak to someone with knowledge of the Bible and Christian traditions, who can also be objective about your situation.
    2) speak to a doctor or dietitian
    3) consider telling your girlfriend about your beliefs. However, if this will upset her to an extreme degree for some reason, maybe wait until she has the baby and recovers.
    4) if you wish to observe a "Christian" diet but decide not to keep to a strict vegetarian or vegan diet, you might consider adopting some of the fast days and so on. There are people around, including on this board, who might advise you.
  3. treefencecar

    treefencecar New Member

    In Relationship
    The site is here but it won't let me post a link!

    The Christian Basis for Veganism

    By Robert Wayner | October 1, 2014 | Categories Veganism

    This article first appeared on the Encyclopaedia Britannica’s Advocacy for Animals site and is reprinted with permission of the editors.

    Detail from Nativity, by Gentila da Fabriano. Public domain.

    Most Christians in the Western Hemisphere eat meat. Though a small vegetarian/vegan minority exists, for the most part Christianity in North and South America is a meat-eating religion.

    When asked about the morality of killing animals for food, the response from most self-described Christians is almost always the same: the Bible teaches that humans have dominion over animals, and that killing them for food or any other service to humans is allowable. However, despite the general acceptance of this ethos of domination within Western Christianity, the fact remains that when all scriptural passages pertaining to animal welfare are viewed within the larger context of the Christian message of grace, atonement, and mercy developed throughout the Bible, there exists an even stronger argument that promotes the humane and compassionate treatment of animals. As a matter of fact, a very strong biblical case for complete abstinence from meat and all animal products has been taught for years.

    Contrary to the teachings of Augustine and Aquinas, some of the most celebrated Christian leaders, theologians, and teachers of all time were/are vegetarians who espoused the view that meat consumption is contrary to the Biblical message of love and compassion and is not healthy, either for the individual or for the planet.

    “If a man aspires towards a righteous life, his first act of abstinence is from injury to animals.” – Leo Tolstoy (photo: public domain)

    These acclaimed leaders include John Wesley; Salvation Army founders William and Catherine Booth; American pastor Tony Campolo; theologian and physician Albert Schweitzer; Seventh-day Adventist Church founder Ellen G. White; Leo Tolstoy; St. John Chrysostom; St. Clement of Alexandria; and St. Basil. Famous Christian apologist and author C.S. Lewis and St. Francis of Assisi, though not strict vegetarians, both took great pains to teach the moral obligation of Christians to treat all animals with compassion and mercy. Even the iconic Fred Rogers of the public-television program Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood, an ordained Presbyterian minister, was a vegetarian and avoided any products derived from animals.

    Conflicting biblical statements about animals

    There are hundreds of conflicting passages in the Bible concerning how animals fit into Creation and how we as humans are to interact with them. Throughout the Old Testament, texts describing animal sacrifice and animal subservience (Genesis 9:2-6, Deuteronomy 14:4, I Kings 18:25-38, Exodus 12:1-13) intermix with other verses about the purity of animals and their ability to reason and praise God in His glory. (Job 12:7-10, Psalms 36:6-7, Isaiah 43:20, Psalms 148:7-10). Chapter 22 in the Book of Numbers tells the interesting story of the Israelite Balaam, whose faithful donkey sees an angel with its sword drawn blocking the road and wisely chooses to turn off into a field.

    Because Balaam is impure and can’t see the angel, he beats the donkey with his staff, imploring her to get back on the road. After numerous attempts and beatings to no avail, the donkey actually speaks to Balaam and explains that if he would open his mind and his eyes, he would see that there is a very practical and urgent reason why, after years of service, she has abruptly stopped. At this point, the angel becomes visible to Balaam (who falls to the ground trembling) and sternly asks him, “Why have you beaten your donkey? If she had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but spared her.”

    In the New Testament the contradiction of the teachings continues. In numerous verses, animal imagery is used to reflect not only righteous attributes but even God himself. In countless passages, Jesus is referred to as the Lamb of God. Mark 1:9-11 says the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove: “As Jesus was coming up out of the water, He saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on Him in the form of a dove.”

    photo: Pete Crosbie / Willowite Animal Sanctuary

    In Matthew 23:37, Jesus compares his own love of Jerusalem to that of a mother hen gathering her chicks: “How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” In John 10:14, Jesus simply says, “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me.” However, according to Luke 24, Jesus ate fish with the disciples. On another occasion he worked a miracle so they could bring in a huge catch in their nets. John 21 even has Jesus cooking fish for breakfast over an open fire.

    Biblical hermeneutics helps resolve textual conflicts

    So, how is it possible that so many notable Christian theologians and scholars like John Wesley, Tony Campolo, and Leo Tolstoy have concluded over the years that the Bible teaches abstinence from animal products? The answer lies in a basic, but very important, scholarly discipline that few Christians outside of seminaries discuss very often. It is this: biblical hermeneutics.

    Broadly defined, biblical hermeneutics is the study of deducing eternal biblical truths from texts which were written by authors at a specific moment in time, within a specific cultural and moral context, for a specific audience, and with a specific intent. Biblical hermeneutics analyzes all the historical factors of these writings and searches for eternal truths that last beyond the culture or time in which the texts were written.

    Monk transcribing manuscript. Shutterstock / Pana

    Scholars have known for thousands of years that the Bible is full of literal and thematic contradictions from book to book and from passage to passage. In many of the historical books of the Old Testament, as well as in the Gospels, major discrepancies exist in various reportings of the same event. Elements of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus, for example, are reported somewhat differently in all four Gospels.

    However, amidst these inconsistencies that naturally result from the different historical and literary contexts in which they were written, there are unmistakable themes that emerge when all elements of hermeneutic criticism are taken into consideration. A poignant example of this is the biblical account of the institution of slavery. Most modern-day Christians would be surprised to know that not once in the Bible is slavery condemned. As a matter of fact, throughout both the Old and New Testaments, slavery is fully accepted as a legitimate economic institution. Over and over, slaves are admonished to obey their masters even if they are harshly treated.

    “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” (Peter 2:18)

    Today one would be very hard pressed to find any church leader or scholar, brutally conservative, wildly liberal or anywhere in between, who would endorse the idea that one human being has the right to own another human being. (For that matter, I can’t imagine coming across any rank-and-file Christians who would endorse slavery, either.) While we no longer champion the validity of the institution of slavery, until a mere 150 years ago countless numbers of Christians believed otherwise. The dramatic doctrinal change that we now take for granted occurred gradually over the course of the last 1,500 years as biblical scholars hermeneutically wrestled their way to the conclusion that the overall message of the Bible, culminated by Christ’s atonement for all people regardless of race or gender, prohibits the ownership of one human over another, despite specific biblical passages that contend the exact opposite.

    Another hermeneutic transformation that has taken place in the Church regards the role of women. Again, most relevant passages throughout both the Old and New Testaments relegate womens’ role in the church to an auxiliary or nonexistent one. The apostle Paul on numerous occasions speaks quite bluntly about the subject. “Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35). He reiterates the same sentiments in a letter to Timothy (I Timothy 2:8). However, over the course of the last 500 years, biblical scholars have taken into consideration the historical and literary context in which Paul was writing and began to come to a very different conclusion about the role of women in the Church hierarchy in relation to the overall spirit of the Bible, not the actual text of the Bible. Polygamy is another example of biblical hermeneutic change over the course of history.

    Hermeneutics applied to Bible verses about animalsEdward Hicks, “Peaceable Kingdom.” Public domain.

    No respected biblical scholar would deny that, according to the biblical account as laid forth in Genesis, the Garden of Eden (and hence the essence of God’s vision of Creation) was vegan. Genesis 1:29-30 states, “Then God said, ‘I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.’”

    Likewise, virtually all scholars agree that the prophetic passages in the book of Isaiah describe the eternal Kingdom of God as a place where there will be absolutely no killing of any kind and all facets of existence will be at peace: “The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together…. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the cobra’s den, the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11: 6-9).

    Through the Genesis description of the Garden of Eden and the Isaiah account of the eternal Kingdom of God, we vividly sense that God desires a world without killing. The ideal has clearly been set for us. What excuse then do we have to kill animals for food or other products, when we are fully capable of leading a life without killing them and we know that we shouldn’t kill them? Moreover, it can be argued that killing another living creature goes against our human nature — the God within us. As Tolstoy said, “So strong is man’s aversion to all killing. But … by the assertion that God has allowed it, and, above all, by habit, people entirely lose this natural feeling.”

    “When a human kills an animal for food, he is neglecting his own hunger for justice. Man prays for mercy, but is unwilling to extend it to others. Why should he then expect mercy from God? It’s unfair to expect something that you are not willing to give. It is inconsistent.” – Isaac Bashevis Singer (photo of lamb meat farm: Animal Equality)Living a life that best respects God’s creation

    In researching this article, I interviewed Dr. Richard Alan Young, a biblical scholar and author of the book Is God a Vegetarian? Time and again during our conversation, Young came back to the fact that in biblical times, the horrors of modern factory farming and vivisection (the use of animals in scientific experiments and product testing) did not exist. He maintains that in light of the unimaginable suffering inflicted upon His creatures by these barbaric practices, there is no way a merciful God could condone either.

    Moreover, he contends that, because a plant-based diet is extremely beneficial for the human body as well as the planet, there is no excuse for us to eat meat. Scientific research has shown that, on average, vegetarians and vegans lead longer, healthier lives, and has linked meat consumption with heart disease, colon cancer, and many other health problems. In 2006, the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization reported that the world’s meat-producing industry contributes more greenhouse gases (which cause global warming) into the Earth’s atmosphere than the emissions of all cars, trucks, airplanes, and trains put together. Animal agriculture is also the main factor in deforestation and water pollution throughout the world. Converting plant food into meat wastes approximately 78 percent of the protein, up to 96 percent of the calories, and all of the fiber.

    It is no wonder that more church leaders are finally beginning to view the production and consumption of meat as an outright sin. Eating meat is the worst way imaginable to sustain our bodies and our planet. It destroys both, and just as importantly, it inflicts incalculable anguish on the lives of innocent animals who were created by God to enjoy their freedom just as much as we humans.

    The Bible implores us to produce fruit with our repentance (no pun intended). Virtually the entire New Testament is based upon the idea that as sanctified members of the body of Christ who have experienced God’s grace, Christians are called to lead a godly and righteous life to the best of their ability. The righteous life, not surprisingly, is also, I believe, the most healthy, compassionate and fulfilling life. And it is merely a matter of time before the condemnation of meat consumption and any ill treatment of animals becomes a widely held doctrinal tenet of the Christian Church.

    I'll read the rest of your post in more detail now and thank you for replying.
  4. hengesthorsa

    hengesthorsa Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

    United States
    Thanks for posting that. Well, I still agree with what I said above. Suffice it to say that I do not find that this piece contains a coherent and convincing argument that Christians must keep to vegetarian or vegan diets.

    Parts of it are reasonable, I think, or touch on arguments that might be made -- for example, I think one could easily argue that the meat and dairy industries in their present form do not represent good stewardship of the earth or humane treatment of the animals. If one accepts this notion, one may wish to reduce one's use of meat and dairy. Or change the sources -- buy eggs from a small farm where the chickens are kept without harm or cruelty to them, and so on, eat meat less often and from farms where the animals are treated well.

    But if you asked me what I would recommend, I would say this: since you have been vegetarian for some time -- even before reading this piece -- it seems you feel called to observe certain dietary restrictions. I suggest that rather than slavishly obeying a rule of 'personal purity' that may damage your relationship and your health, you find other ways to live your faith while also improve your diet and your relationship with the food industry.

    Some suggestions:

    -talk to Christians who observe (healthy) fast days and periods and learn about their experiences.

    -educate yourself apart from such pieces with an obvious bias on the medical and religious pros and cons of certain diets.

    -consider that there have been not only sincere Christians who observe such dietary restrictions, but also sincere Christians who do not

    -recall that most of the population of Christian Europe for many centuries was in effect much more vegetarian than the average Westerner today. The difference is not in piety but in the availability of meat. You could eat meat and dairy much more rarely, approximating a modern, healthy version of a "peasant diet".

    -since eating ice cream with you is important to your girlfriend, consider reducing the amount that you actually eat, while still having some with your girlfriend -- cheerfully, not dejectedly -- for her benefit and for your relationship. Who knows, you might slowly set an example that will help her to improve her diet as well. Leadership does not always mean laying down an iron law.
  5. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

    When human reasoning and deductions disagree with simple Scripture, it is human reason that is wrong.

    There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. (Proverbs 14:12, 1984 NIV)

    For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
    (1 Corinthians 1:25, 1984 NIV)

    God declared eating all foods was moral (unless doing so caused other people to stumble in their faith in God) in Acts 10:9-16, 28. A snippet of it:

    It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” (Acts 10:12-15, 1984 NIV)

    Also, after Noah disembarked from the ark, God said to him:

    Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. (Genesis 9:3, 1984 NIV)

    The Holy Spirit through Paul stated the same thing:

    They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, (1 Timothy 4:3-4, 1984 NIV)

    If you want to eat well to live a long life, then:

    Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise—“that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.” (Ephesians 6:1-3, 1984 NIV)

    (... but don't let anything hinder your prayers or connection with God, which is what sin does. [one example, 1 Peter 3:7])
  6. JCFantasy23

    JCFantasy23 In a Kingdom by the Sea Staff Member Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team

    United States
    You'll be fine without dairy - actually a lot of the population is lactose intolerant anyway. There are plenty of other sources for Vitamin D and nutrients you get from dairy otherwise.
  7. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Hello, and welcome to CF! We are glad that you've joined us. :)

    We fast (basically vegan) for reasons of discipline (not because of any thought that any food is wrong) in our Church, sometimes for extended periods, and one does have to be very careful even over a periods of weeks or months to get adequate nutrition. Any compromise to health can make it unwise to keep the strictness.

    God specifically approved animals for food, even their meat. To disagree with this is to make ourselves "holier than God" if we consider it a moral issue.

    However, animals should be treated humanely. It is true that they are often not.

    My solution at one point (I wanted fresh and clean food, and it was just something we wanted) was to have a small farm for a while. Our animals lived VERY humane and happy lives and it was my goal never to stress them, even those that were for meat. So it's possible.

    Why don't you buy from humane sources? It will almost surely cost more, but we generally eat much more of these foods than we need, so for a typical cost you could eat less and the animals could be humanely treated. Your best bet is to find a local small farm, but you might have something available commercially ... but it would take research to find out any that are truly humane and not just meeting minimum labeling guidelines.

    Again, welcome, and please let us know if you need any help finding you way around. :)
  8. treefencecar

    treefencecar New Member

    In Relationship
    Hello and thank you, I like the people here already.

    Can I ask what you mean when you fast? Do you mean you only eat what a vegan would eat? And you only do this to show commitment and dedication, not because of animal welfare reasons?

    Thank you again for your post

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
  9. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Well ....

    It's actually rather complicated. We have fasting periods for the purpose of discipline, to put our flesh under control. It also tends to bring out "stuff" you might not know is there so it can be dealt with. It's humbling. We focus more on God. Those are the reasons.

    We also have "feast days" ... which does NOT mean "we eat a lot". But they are meant to be celebrations, in honor of a person (like John the Baptist) or an event (like the Transfiguration).

    I say that to explain why it's complicated, such as if a feast days falls in a fast period.

    We fast for long periods a couple of times a year. Strict fast would be no meat, no fish, no dairy, no eggs, no oil, no wine. (Some add a little extra discipline.) On a feast day, they might allow wine, oil, and fish for the feast.

    I hope that answers your question.

    The fasts are not specifically associated with animal welfare. But at the same time, we recognize all creation as being created good by God, and God will redeem all of creation at the end of this age. We are in a sense priests to the creation, and responsible to care for it. Animals should not be made to suffer in any way.

    So I can understand your point of view. And we made very heavy use of eggs and milk. We had around 100 free range chickens most of the time, and several milk goats, as well as other kinds of animals. They were VERY happy and they all thought they were pets ... essentially they were.
  10. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

    Its like likely your friend is opposed to animals being caged and used. It is a noble ideal.
    It is biblically acceptable to eat meat, but I feel that the righteous remnant will not eat meat because they see the divine life-force given to people and animals. Its a sort of merit badge if you will.
    There is also some evidence that meat contains stress hormones which are fear hormones and humans are affected by eating it. The China test confirms that eating animal flesh leads to disease.

    Having said that,animal products like milk and eggs do still contribute to animal cruelty (in some farming establishments) and health effects (some studies show eating those things have the same effect as eating meat) but do not kill animals, so its a bit more vague.

    You will just need to do what the Father leads you to do. Do it in faith. Just do not make your eating habits a religious thing. If you do, it will tempt you to judge those who eat meat and animal products. That will negate the whole thing!

    Walk in love for God, your brothers and sisters, and lastly, the earth and animals that were given to us to care for and use with respect.

    Bless up.

  11. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    Hi, and welcome to CF.

    First, I have to say that I do not know all the arguments for eating/not eating meat, dairy etc. And, at the moment, do not have time to respond to your post in depth.

    What concerns me though is;
    1) the article you read that said Christians should be vegans. There are certainly those who believe that this is a good idea, but it is not compulsory or a requirement for salvation or church membership. If your reading of Scripture leads you to the conclusion that vegetarianism, or veganism (if there is such a word), is right for you and the way to go; that is great and is between you and God. Some Christians do believe this, others say it is fine to eat meat, especially as Jesus would have done at Passover. But to stop eating stuff just because someone else said you should, is not good.
    2) it concerns me that you can't tell your fiancee you are a Christian. If you are engaged you are going to be sharing, and spending, the whole of your lives together - yet you can't tell her about the most important part of your life. Is this because she would be against you being a Christian? She clearly loves you because she is concerned for your health; would she not understand, or be willing to let you practice, your faith?
    3) it is slightly concerning that you are keen to know what the Bible says about what you should eat, and will stop eating something if the Bible says you should. But the Bible says that sex is only to be enjoyed within the relationship of marriage - and you are expecting a child. It also says that it is not good to be yolked to unbelievers, which may, or may not be so, in your case. Forgive me if I am being too personal or too blunt, but I am concerned that you seem keen to follow the Bible in some areas of your life, but not others.

    But regarding diet, I think it's best to talk to God, read the Scriptures and then decide for yourself. If veganism is right for you, then explain to your fiancee why you believe it is right - i.e it's not a health fad, you have sincere beliefs, and believe that the Bible teaches it. A number of people today are vegans, and I'm sure there must be suitable recipies - maybe you could look at these, and learn to cook them, together? Maybe you could find articles which might allay her health fears about a vegan diet?

    Best wishes
  12. Ffraid

    Ffraid Member

    Nonsense. If we were meant to be vegan, the Church would not have established fasting rules.
  13. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    being vegetarian, esp in this day and age, is healthier. They use a lot of hormones and antibiotics and chemicals in their food. However, it is not against the bible, except for the blood. Which basically eliminates any meat less than well done--to the no visible blood stage anyway. There have been enough research studies done that show a relationship between meat eating and colon cancer. Vegetarians just have less of it, much less. But there is not much difference, if any, between vegetarians and vegans--as far as colon cancer anyway. Yoghurt and buttermilk and such are actually quite good for the intestines, lots of good bacteria that promotes a healthy digestion. Even the lactose intolerant do not seem to react to buttermilk---of course, many people just plain do not like it. Cheese and milk are a whole different thing, and the lactose intolerant do react to them. Eggs, I've not seen much research about them, except that they do contain cholesterol. Cheese and milk were a part of the Hebrew culture. However, most of it was goat and sheep products which are better for you than cows milk. They did have some cows, they are quite small in comparison to regular cows, that breed is still around in and around Jerusalem, but the dairy industry there has done much to increase the milk production of their cows now and are considered pretty much the best in the world. Most of their cattle were for sacrifice rather than food.
    I know a lot of people who are vegan, they are quite healthy. But you should inform yourself of the proper way to do it. Personally, I see no reason why it has to be vegan, a little of the yoghurt and buttermilk type dairy are healthy and for cheese, it's best to stick to the goat and sheep if you can find it. A couple eggs a week is considered just fine and still keep your cholesterol down, and the eggs have improved (like Egglands best)--there is no difference in the make up of eggs be they brown shell or white, contrary to popular believe.
    One of my brothers was very sickly as a baby. At one point, nearly dead, my father ran to the hospital with him in his arms. The only thing that he could keep down for about a year was goats milk----after that he was fine---he grew to be 6'5" and before he lost some, weighed 350 lbs. For was some strange reason, he doesn't like goats milk.
  14. masmpg

    masmpg Well-Known Member

    Here are some bible verses that tell us that we must preserve our health. Many try to spiritualize these verses away, but they are very plain.

    Romans:12:1: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Clearly Paul is referring to our bodies in this context. He goes on in the next couple verses to mention our mind. So this is telling us to present our bodies a living sacrifice. What was a sacrifice suppose to be like? Without blemish and without any disease. Very pertinent for His Spirit to indwell.

    Another verse is 3John:1:2: "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." John even distinguishes between health of body with the soul. Here again we are told to be in health.

    Another context that many completely overlook is
    1Corinthians:3:16&17 & 19: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    1Co:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" We are told that if we defile our BODIES God will destroy us.

    Look at it like this: God created man and placed him in the garden of eden. Before the flood all creatures were vegans
    Genesis:1:29&30: "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." It was not until after the flood that God ALLOWED , not required, man to eat the flesh of dead animals. I often wondered if Noah and his family stayed vegan during the 6 months in the ark? Probably not but I try not to make decisions without proof.

    Here is proof that vegetarians live longer than meat eaters, and vegans live longer then vegetarians. BUT it is not necessarily the longevity but the quality of life. Vegans live relatively disease free. I raised my children vegans and my youngest son still only eats meat on very rare occasions. His favorite food is brussel sprouts.

    This study has been ongoing for over 40 years. I have been taking part in it myself. There is no denying the outcome, although many will deny it just because the Seventh day Adventist church is doing it. To do that would be quite antichristian.

    Adventist Health Studies | School of Public Health | Loma Linda University

    God bless your studies in health.
  15. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

    United States
    Jesus was not a vegetarian. The Bible records Jesus eating fish (Luke 24:42-43) and lamb (Luke 22:8-15). Jesus miraculously fed the crowds fish and bread, a strange thing for Him to do if He was a vegetarian (Matthew 14:17-21). In a vision to the apostle Peter, Jesus declared all foods to be clean, including animals (Acts 10:10-15). After the flood in Noah's time, God gave humanity permission to eat meat (Genesis 9:2-3). God has never rescinded this permission.

    I trust Scripture over someone's opinion. There's no requirement that Christians are to be vegans.
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    If you take them out of context and assign another meaning.

    It sounds like you're saying that the Spirit cannot, or will not, dwell in someone who is sick or imperfect. That is simply not true.

    ?? This is simply a greeting from John to his friends; "I wish you good health". John's audience seem to have strong faith and spiritual blessings - John hopes that they will have the same for their bodies.
    This is not a command for good health.

    This is absolutely correct. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and we are to look after them; but this verse does not tell us how. Meat may be poison to some people; to others it is tasty and a good source of protein. Some people may like dairy products; others may be intolerant. Some people may exercise regularly, run, swim etc; others may be in a wheelchair or have some other injury.
    Some people are fit, eat healthily, never see a doctor and yet may have a stroke, illness or die young; others were brought up on fry ups, or eat junk food and live in to their 80s or 90s.

    They may well have been vegetarians; we have no Scriptural proof that they were vegans. The verses you quoted do not say they did not eat eggs, for example.

    No one is required to eat, or abstain from, any food. God said, "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3
    They weren't forced to eat it, nor were they forced to abstain.

    That may be.
    But the question was "does the Bible teach, or have anything to say about, veganism?" Because a study has found that vegans live longer - and I know many people in their 90s who have eaten meat all their lives - this does not prove that the Bible advocates, or requires, it

    Again, it could be authentic and entirely valid - but it does not prove the Biblical position.
    As someone has correctly said, Jesus ate meat and fish. The Passover was given by God as a feast for the Israelites, and it involved eating lamb. Jesus ate fish after the resurrection to prove that he was alive and had a fish breakfast with his disciples, John 21. The disciples were fishermen.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  17. masmpg

    masmpg Well-Known Member

    I look at the measure of the indwelling Spirit. Some, like you and I now have the Spirit working in and through us in a small measure. Others like Moses, after fasting for forty days was privileged to see God's backside and live. Daniel fasted and prayed earnestly for 21 days before He talked to Gabriel, and so forth. For God to give us great measures of His Spirit, from what I have read throughout the bible we must be prepared in some way, and whether anyone believes this or not what we eat affects our mind.

    The dangers of eating meat cannot be denied today. There are studies from all sorts of organizations. I just use the Loma Linda study because it has been the most thorough and ongoing. That study takes all into account. Some SDAs eat meat regularly. Certainly there are genetic exceptions to this rule, but all in all God gave us the most healthy diet in the beginning. I noticed you did not re quote Genesis 1:29 & 30 which I will quote here again Genesis:1:29&30: "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." If you notice here man's original diet ONLY consisted of fruit, grains and seeds, even vegetables were added later, after the fall, Genesis 3:18. The original diet for all living creatures was vegan only. If God wanted us to eat any animal products in the beginning I believe He would have told them in these verses. Those who say dinosaurs were man eating creatures is a lie.

    I never said they were forced to eat anything. You can eat anything you want to, but I will say that if you are ever convicted about something you might want to find out if that conviction comes from the Holy Spirit and if it does it would be unwise to deny it.

    I just quoted what God's original diet for man was in the garden of eden. If God gave man this diet don't you think it would be of the most benefit? And BTW it was vegan. It is written, to add anything to what is written is speculation.

    I have not denied any of this have I?
  18. Yahu_

    Yahu_ Member

    There is no support for even being vegan in scripture. As a matter of fact, it is harmful. I have heard that spiritual warfare depletes certain proteins. Eating meet replenishes it.

    The animal sacrifices will still go on in the millennial kingdom. Those sacrifices are EATEN by the people.
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

    Since Pentecost, all Christians can have the Holy Spirit living in them and can, and should, be regularly filled with the Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is mentioned, nd was present, in the OT, but he had not at that point been poured out to be able to live in people.

    Yes we need to be born again, ask God to fill us with his Spirit and then believe that he has done so.
    A correct diet is not a condition for being filled with the Spirit.

    Yes, but you are talking about the advisability of giving up meant for health reasons, not whether vegetarianism is advocated, or commanded, in Scripture - two different things.

    I know.
    But man's diet was not only later made more varied, it was even the case that God commanded people to eat meat.
    All Jews were told to celebrate the Passover, to remind them of how God had rescued the nation from Egypt. The main element at Passover was the lamb - God had not commanded them to crush a brazil nut and pour the oil onto their doorposts; he told them to kill a lamb. God also gave them the sacrificial system - they had to kill an animal to atone for their sins. In some sacrifices I think they were told to eat the meat. Jesus would have eaten meat and certainly ate fish.

    Maybe, but the point is that that diet only lasted for a time - after the flood, meat became permissible and by the time of Moses they ate it every time they celebrated the Passover - and probably many times in between too.

    If a person receives a personal conviction from the Holy Spirit that the vegan diet is best for them, that is one thing. Saying that this diet is taught in Scripture and should be followed because Adam and Eve did so; is quite different.

    I know.
    God gave Adam and Eve garments made from animal skin too - does that also mean we have to make our clothes from the same substance?

    Well God's not going to give anything harmful so yes - for them it was beneficial.

    But we don't live in the Garden of Eden; after the flood God gave animals for food and when he came to earth in Jesus, he himself ate meat and fish.
    And I'm not saying you've denied it, I was just showing what other Scriptures say on the subject. Though veganism is never mentioned.
  20. Goodbook

    Goodbook Reading the Bible

    In Relationship
    If you are allergic to it yes but otherwise no, the bible doesnt really support veganism. It might be originally how we were before the fall but remember in acts Peter was told no food was unclean and no food was forbidden. If eaten with thanksgiving.

    The main issue seems to be you expecting a child with this gf you not even married to?!