Eastern Orthodox: What must the Roman See do to get you back?

[GoingByzantine]

I see a man in a civilian suit. I gather there is input in these regional and local councils from the Laity?

It depends a lot, on a church by church basis.

Often a bishop will invite local church leaders and members of the laity to provide opinions and information in front of their synods and councils. The ultimate decision making is usually left up to the bishops, however.

There are also commissions in many of the Orthodox churches that have a mix of laity, pastors and bishops in their composition. These commissions are kind of like a congressional committee in the US Congress. They hold meetings on a particular topic behind the scenes, and then bring that topic to the council for their final consideration. You will find everyday men and women on these committees in addition to church leaders. For example, here is a picture of a commission of the Orthodox Church in America. In addition to local priests, there are three members of the laity (two women and a man) on the board.

 

[timothyu]

it makes sense why you wouldn't call a council.

Then why the fuss over declaring independence from what was 'for strictly political matters like that', if they didn't belong to them in the first place?

 

[GoingByzantine]

Then why the fuss over declaring independence from what was 'for strictly political matters like that', if they didn't belong to them in the first place?

Can you clarify? Who exactly are we talking about and when?

 

[timothyu]

Can you clarify? Who exactly are we talking about and when?

#'s 19-20

 

[GoingByzantine]

#'s 19-20

I'm still not entirely sure about what we are talking about. The Orthodox Church never declared Ukraine as an independent state during this period, like I said, the church as a whole does not get involved in such things. I can't speak about what local church leaders might have said or done during this period though.

Ukraine began to adopt Orthodox Christianity in the year 867, and was completely Orthodox by the late 900s. So if you are inferring that Orthodoxy did not belong there, then that is simply not the case. Like many other ethnic groups, the Ukrainians were conquered by various non-Orthodox and even non-Christian states over time, but Orthodoxy still remained strong through it all. The Eastern part of Ukraine around Lviv became more inclined towards Catholicism, Lutheranism and Calvinism due to its proximity to Central Europe. As a whole, Orthodoxy was and still is the predominant profession of faith in the area.

 

[timothyu]

As a whole, Orthodoxy was and still is the predominant profession of faith in the area.

Then why the fuss with the Russian Orthodox church? What business has the Ukraine ever been of theirs other than politically advantageous to Moscow?

 

[GoingByzantine]

Then why the fuss with the Russian Orthodox church? What business has the Ukraine ever been of theirs other than politically advantageous to Moscow?

\

Oh, now I get the question! Forgive me

Kievan Rus, the original Ukrainian state that first converted to Orthodoxy is the cultural hearth of both the Ukrainians and the Russians. At the time the Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians were a single people, and Kiev (today the capital of Ukraine) was their cultural and religious home.

Due to this shared history, and close cultural connections, the Russian Orthodox Church was seen as the spiritual head of the Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians.

In recent times, however, there has been a growing nationalist movement in Ukraine. It is this movement that began to demand for a completely autocephalous (independent) church for the newly formed independent state of Ukraine. The Belorussian and Russian churches, as well as the recognized Ukrainian Orthodox Church, have not been in favor of this. They view Kiev as part of a shared tradition, and are not in favor of splitting apart from one another.

A group of Ukrainian nationalists, led by a former bishop, decided to start their own independent church in protest of Russia, Belarus and the recognized Ukrainian Church. This church was unrecognized by any Orthodox body for years, until recently the Patriarch of Constantinople claimed that Ukraine was actually his jurisdiction, and that he wanted to recognize and grant independence to the schismatic church there. This is what has led up to the current dispute. None of the other Orthodox churches have recognized his action, making his granting of independence for the schismatic Ukrainians a moot point.

If the actual recognized Ukrainian Orthodox Church were to want autolocephaly, then the Russian Church has indicated that they would grant it. The rightful Ukrainian church has never asked for this though.

 

[timothyu]

f the actual recognized Ukrainian Orthodox Church were to want autolocephaly, then the Russian Church has indicated that they would grant it. The rightful Ukrainian church has never asked for this though.

Thanks for the response. Funny how man's kingdom's become more important to squabble over than focusing on the true Kingdom of God.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Thanks for the response. Funny how man's kingdom's become more important to squabble over than focusing on the true Kingdom of God.

Yes, it's very sad. If everyone had remained part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church, none of these squabbles would have happened. Now we have thousands of denominations, teachings and biblical interpretations that stand in contrast to what was taught for thousands of years, in addition to religious war, strife, hate and intolerance.

For our problems, at least Orthodox love and support each other in a common profession of faith. We get over our little squabbles and come back together. We don't prey on each other like vicious wolves...as I recall, scripture has something to say about that practice.

 

[GingerBeer]

How many Orthodox people want to "get back with Rome"?

 

[prodromos]

How many Orthodox people want to "get back with Rome"?

We'd love Rome to get back with us, but they need to return to their Orthodox roots first.

 

[GingerBeer]

We'd love Rome to get back with us, but they need to return to their Orthodox roots first.

I think that answered my question by saying "zero"

 

[com7fy8]

Eastern Orthodox: What must the Roman See do to get you back?

Possibly, if the Roman Catholic Church changed enough to get together with the Eastern Orthodox people, she would not be the Roman Catholic Church, anymore.

Prayer. And love. And fasting. And more love.

I think we see places in the book of Acts where people of the church first prayed and then they obeyed how God developed their unity. The results were unanimous, when they obeyed God. Even so, that was while the church and the apostles still were less mature, and even immature, though gifted. So . . . now . . . I would say we have mature leaders, whoever they really are, and these are living in unity, though less mature Christians might not. Plus, of course, there can be leaders who have not even gotten started with Jesus; so surely these can not bring unity, no matter what they do, or what gestures they make.

Therefore, I would say that now . . . already . . . any of us who are really obeying God are now already in the unity of the Holy Spirit, therefore in even family sharing with all the others who are obeying Jesus >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

"forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (in Ephesians 4:31-32)

"without complaining and disputing" (in Philippians 2:13-16)

This unity is mainly within us > Luke 17:20-21.

By the way, it is possible that if anyone is disobeying the unity of Christ, those persons might not be capable of obeying so they can be in unity with whoever Jesus knows is His church.

And each of us now can live in God's unity, by obeying how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us "in one body" with His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

I would say that there is no group in which all their members are personally obeying how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us with His own peace . . . in unity with and in His coordination of all the others obedient "in one body". While we are subject to how God rules us, He has us in coordination with how He is guiding every other child of God, and in coordination with all He knows is going on now and what will happen and what He knows is really true in each person. So, right now, any of us can be so relevant and with God and with all the others who are obeying Him.

But a high-up leader can not obey how Jesus would guide that person, if that person does not have the character to be prayerfully honest > it does not take long to submit to God and do what He wants us to do . . . if we are prayerfully honest with Him.

But what about having leaders whom God trusts to rule us? Hebrews 13:17 does say to obey those who rule us, right? Well, if we obey how God rules us within us, this will match with how we are being ruled by whomever God really trusts to take care of us.

So, among other things, I consider > if I obey how God personally rules me in His own peace . . . God's peace being shared with me in my heart . . . He will have me working together with whomever He knows He trusts to guide me. So, this is how I can test who I belong with . . . no matter what anyone claims and shows for what they dictate is evidence. God knows.

But when the early church needed to replace Judas, God used Peter to stand up and oversee that. And they did not get divided about that > so it was unanimous.

And when the early church had the issue about if Gentile converts must be circumcised > yes, they had quite a dispute about that. But then God had Peter stand up and efficiently take care of the matter.

So, the church got somewhere only by means of the leader whom God had approved for Him to use. And it was . . . yes . . . unanimous.

So, I can see the point of how the Roman Catholic Church insists that God must have a single leader now to rule Jesus Christ's church.

But . . . even so . . . when Jesus did this, there was unanimous function of the ones Jesus ruled through Peter. But also Peter could be very wrong > Galatians 2:11-13. But God used Paul effectively and efficiently to straighten things out, I understand. And Paul, I would say, messed up once, getting in a fight with Barnabas, but later it seems God proved Himself to Paul.

Because God does correct His children. But He uses us to help to correct one another. It does not take centuries, does it?

So . . . Gracia > correction > Hebrews 12:4-14 > is also needed. But ones need to be children of God so they are capable of receiving this correction.

And, by the way, our Apostle Paul has made it very clear who qualifies to "take care of the church of God" > in 1 Timothy 3:1-10. If ones do not obey this standard for preparation of pastors, then ones can not get really qualified pastors. God will not help wrong people to get Christian family men (1 Timothy 3:1-10) to help them do things the wrong way. And so we see how certain groups can not get really right men for taking care of their people.

So, I would say the Roman Catholic Church needs to evaluate if they have obeyed how Jesus through our Apostle Paul has directed us to prepare and select men to pastor. Because if you do things right, in the guiding of our Shepherd, He will guide you how to prepare and choose really qualified men to "take care of the church of God" (1 Timothy 3:1-10). Jesus makes even His sheep able to tell the difference, so we do not fool ourselves into trusting the wrong people > John 10:1-30.

But it appears . . . to me, anyway . . . how various local churches and not only large groups have major problems with getting mature family-experienced pastors like I find Paul is directing us to select and ordain. Instead, there is a lot of educating of young not especially mature people who get ordained, and now I am told that nine out of ten pastors quit. I was just told this. And I can see how others might quit, inside themselves, but they go through the motions. And so, have they even gotten started with learning with Jesus, taking His yoke upon them and finding His "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30)????

It seems some number are not obeying how Jesus teaches us and cares for us in His love's "rest for your souls." But a number of these people can make a lot of things happen.

So, yes we need to pray and love, and seek our Heavenly Father for real correction which He alone is able to do in us.

 

[thecolorsblend]

How many Orthodox people want to "get back with Rome"?

If the entire Catholic Church converts to Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm sure they'd be happy to have us. Their numbers would swell by about 1 billion and they wouldn't have to budge an inch on anything. Who wouldn't love that deal?

The real answer, I think, is that they don't actually want unity if unity requires considering somebody else's point of view. Luckily, unity won't be won or lost based on anything said here.

 

[A Shield of Turquoise]

In my view the only real, solid obstacle is Papal supremacy. I think purgatory, at least as it is explain in modern Catholic teaching, is compatible with Orthodox ideas of the afterlife, even if the indulgence system is very weird. The filioque debate is so abstract and obscure that I doubt either side really knows what they're talking about. A lot of the other stuff that some modern Orthodox object to is just sectarian nitpickery.

 

[St. Helens]

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[Newtheran]

Please be specific.

Short list would, I think, look like...

- Abandon the use of the filioque.
- Abandon the idea of mandatory priestly celbacy
- Abandon the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary.
- Abandon the doctrine of ex-cathedra, papal supremacy, and return to a conciliar vision of decision making.

There may be more. In short, return to being the Roman Patriarchate prior to the schism.

If the entire Catholic Church converts to Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm sure they'd be happy to have us. Their numbers would swell by about 1 billion and they wouldn't have to budge an inch on anything. Who wouldn't love that deal?

The real answer, I think, is that they don't actually want unity if unity requires considering somebody else's point of view. Luckily, unity won't be won or lost based on anything said here.

Frankly, I think it's a little rich for any of us whippersnappers to expect the Orthodox Church to change anything they do or believe to accommodate us. I honestly hope they never do.