*Eastern Orthodox Subforum* David Bentley Hart

[anna ~ grace]

Hey, guys. I was wondering if I might get some help, and pick your brains a bit. I have (and my mom has) a bit of a problem.

So, a couple of years ago, thanks be to God, my mother (who is 63 today) had something of a conversion experience. She has always described herself as Christian, but since this experience has developed a deep interest in Scripture, prayer, theology, and Tradition. This is great, and something I'm super happy about.

As I lean towards Catholicism, she seems to be leaning towards Eastern Orthodoxy. Which is great, except that she seems to be latching onto some weird stuff, as she struggles to understand the Church.

Like David Bentley Hart. I don't know this man personally, of course, but some things that I've found on-line in response to his thinking are disturbing.

Fr. John Whiteford's Commentary and Reflections: The Strange Theology of David Bentley Hart

I think I may understand why this is. We lost my brother George last year, who ended his own life after a long battle with psychological and spiritual struggles. My mom may be latching on to this theology in hopes that it can give her some hope. I don't know where my brother is, but pray for him, and hope that by grace he made it to Purgatory, and that our prayers are helping him.

Here's the thing; how do I gently steer a grieving woman who is also my mom away from less than Orthodox theology? What are your thoughts on David Bentley Hart? Is he a good guy to read, or is he problematic?

Thank you all for your answers, and help. I love my mom lot, but this is kind of above my pay grade.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hey, guys. I was wondering if I might get some help, and pick your brains a bit. I have (and my mom has) a bit of a problem.

So, a couple of years ago, thanks be to God, my mother (who is 63 today) had something of a conversion experience. She has always described herself as Christian, but since this experience has developed a deep interest in Scripture, prayer, theology, and Tradition. This is great, and something I'm super happy about.

As I lean towards Catholicism, she seems to be leaning towards Eastern Orthodoxy. Which is great, except that she seems to be latching onto some weird stuff, as she struggles to understand the Church.

Like David Bentley Hart. I don't know this man personally, of course, but some things that I've found on-line in response to his thinking are disturbing.

Fr. John Whiteford's Commentary and Reflections: The Strange Theology of David Bentley Hart

I think I may understand why this is. We lost my brother George last year, who ended his own life after a long battle with psychological and spiritual struggles. My mom may be latching on to this theology in hopes that it can give her some hope. I don't know where my brother is, but pray for him, and hope that by grace he made it to Purgatory, and that our prayers are helping him.

Here's the thing; how do I gently steer a grieving woman who is also my mom away from less than Orthodox theology? What are your thoughts on David Bentley Hart? Is he a good guy to read, or is he problematic?

Thank you all for your answers, and help. I love my mom lot, but this is kind of above my pay grade.

I'm sorry for the loss of your brother, and for your mother's pain. But glad she is serious about faith in general.

I don't want to turn this into a huge DBH debate, but as you can see, his theology is considered problematic in some sense. I would be inclined to let your mother know that, gently.

However, we are not without hope! Firstly we hope very much in the mercy of God, and that He Himself desires all men to be saved. (I'm not saying all will be ... we cannot assure that.) But He IS merciful, He IS loving, and unless a person is absolutely opposed to God, there can be hope. We can certainly pray for them. God is not limited. We carry one another's burdens in some senses. There are also Saints like St. Varus whose story might encourage her.

I'm sure more can be said, but that's at least a bit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here's a link btw - it took me a while to read to be sure it included what I wanted. The part after the martyr's death especially.

Holy Martyr Varus and the Devout Cleopatra (St. Dimitri of Rostov) | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

 

[anna ~ grace]

Ok, Anastasia, thank you. Very much. I don't want to discourage my mother's interest in Orthodoxy, but also don't want her wandering into something weird or heretical that's vaguely connected to Eastern Orthodoxy.

And thank you for sharing your hope! I have the same hope, too. God is truly merciful and wills for all men to be saved. And we can not know how His grace has met and been accepted by a soul at the very end. Christ's mercy is a great and awesome thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the problem with DBH is he takes the hope for everyone too far. the Orthodox stance is to pray for the person and trust in God's mercy. so we trust that those who die come face to face with the God Who loves them.

Hart is not one to be taken seriously, as his views are heretical.

 

[anna ~ grace]

the problem with DBH is he takes the hope for everyone too far. the Orthodox stance is to pray for the person and trust in God's mercy. so we trust that those who die come face to face with the God Who loves them.

Hart is not one to be taken seriously, as his views are heretical.

Thank you, Father Matt. It seems like DBH kind of exalts his own wants (that everyone gets saved) over Church teaching, and while it's good to hope, our wants are not dogmas.

DBH also came up (it seems) with a translation of Scripture. Would you recommend it? Is it sound, or problematic?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Also, what can I suggest to my mom to get her away from David Bentley Hart? Like "here, Mom, try this instead!"

Thank you!

 

[Lukaris]

I think the Dormition of the Theotokos, The Ever Virgin Mary inspires us to live by love & faith in hope for ourselves, our loved ones, & for everyone and trusting in God.

I think the homilies of St. John of Damascus on this are (obviously) sound, hopeful, & helpful. See:
Balamand Monastery - St. John of Damascus' Three Sermons on the Dormition Feast

 

[straykat]

I didn't know universalism was considered "heresy". I thought the details of afterlife is not in any Councils and left open ended. St. Gregory of Nyssa is the biggest proponent of it. Does that makes him a heretic too?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you, Father Matt. It seems like DBH kind of exalts his own wants (that everyone gets saved) over Church teaching, and while it's good to hope, our wants are not dogmas.

DBH also came up (it seems) with a translation of Scripture. Would you recommend it? Is it sound, or problematic?

problematic, he translated it apart from dogma, which is idiotic.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I didn't know universalism was considered "heresy". I thought the details of afterlife is not in any Councils and left open ended. St. Gregory of Nyssa is the biggest proponent of it. Does that makes him a heretic too?

no, because while Nyssa is most optimistic for man, he does say in his work on the Resurrection that the delights of heaven are only for those who prepare for it.

plus the 5th council condemns universalism as heresy.

 

[straykat]

no, because while Nyssa is most optimistic for man, he does say in his work on the Resurrection that the delights of heaven are only for those who prepare for it.

plus the 5th council condemns universalism as heresy.

Ah I stand corrected then.

In any case, I love Gregory's stories of his sister, when she taught him about death. Not anything to do with universalism per se, but her story about purging one's attachments to the world (yet, not purgatory either, in the Western understanding).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah I stand corrected then.

In any case, I love Gregory's stories of his sister, when she taught him about death. Not anything to do with universalism per se, but her story about purging one's attachments to the world (yet, not purgatory either, in the Western understanding).

I would underscore though - we can and do hope and pray for the salvation of each person. But this does not mean that we teach universalism.

Very much is in the hands and knowledge of God alone.

I'm just saying this because it's easy to make wrong assumptions based on what we say. I hope that makes sense.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes, and it is certainly not outside of our belief to share in an optimistic hope for everyone to be saved, but we dare not take God's judgment away from Him.

 

[Knee V]

Speaking non-pastorally (not that I could speak pastorally even if I wanted to; I just mean that this isn't the answer tailored for your mom), I tend to stick to those writings by people who have "finished the race" and have proven themselves worthy to be read and worthy of reflection upon. In the end, DBH may turn out to be a theological giant. But until such a time that that is proven, I will sail my ship on familiar waters. If there is something that I can't understand, I will ask my priest; I will not rely on a book or article from someone that I don't know. Which is not to say that I never read anything. I am just picky about what I "take to heart".

Orthodoxy is relational. For someone in your mom's position, it would generally be good to develop a good relationship with her priest and seek his guidance for what would be good to read. Each person is in a different place, and not all resources are equally good for all people. It may be that hearing truth from his mouth instead of a book may be of more value and comfort. After all, that was how the faith has been transmitted to most people since the time of the Apostles.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Speaking non-pastorally (not that I could speak pastorally even if I wanted to; I just mean that this isn't the answer tailored for your mom), I tend to stick to those writings by people who have "finished the race" and have proven themselves worthy to be read and worthy of reflection upon. In the end, DBH may turn out to be a theological giant. But until such a time that that is proven, I will sail my ship on familiar waters. If there is something that I can't understand, I will ask my priest; I will not rely on a book or article from someone that I don't know. Which is not to say that I never read anything. I am just picky about what I "take to heart".

Orthodoxy is relational. For someone in your mom's position, it would generally be good to develop a good relationship with her priest and seek his guidance for what would be good to read. Each person is in a different place, and not all resources are equally good for all people. It may be that hearing truth from his mouth instead of a book may be of more value and comfort. After all, that was how the faith has been transmitted to most people since the time of the Apostles.

Thank you, very much. I think at this point, she's not able to attend an Orthodox Church, though I think she'd like to. It kind of sort of sounds like her husband is not on board, which curiously mirrors my own situation, and that her access to information on Orthodoxy is via the internet, and books. So she likely doesn't even have a priest yet. But if it becomes possible for her to get to an Orthodox Church and to a priest, that'd be a good thing to know. Thank you. She sounds kind of depressed and angry at God, too. I'm trying to walk that fine line between giving her space, and being there for her.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you, very much. I think at this point, she's not able to attend an Orthodox Church, though I think she'd like to. It kind of sort of sounds like her husband is not on board, which curiously mirrors my own situation, and that her access to information on Orthodoxy is via the internet, and books. So she likely doesn't even have a priest yet. But if it becomes possible for her to get to an Orthodox Church and to a priest, that'd be a good thing to know. Thank you. She sounds kind of depressed and angry at God, too. I'm trying to walk that fine line between giving her space, and being there for her.

I would point her to the akathist to St Varus, who intercedes for those who die outside of the Church, to include suicides, as well as the trisagion for the departed which is the prayer service for those who die outside of the Church (again, to include suicides).

there is a lot of hope in there without DBH heretical weirdness.

 

[buzuxi02]

Suicides are grevious sins only in mentally and psycologically stable individuals. That's why the Church permits funerals for suicide victims with psychological problems but usually not for someone who kills himself because he lost his fortune in the stock market for example.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would point her to the akathist to St Varus, who intercedes for those who die outside of the Church, to include suicides, as well as the trisagion for the departed which is the prayer service for those who die outside of the Church (again, to include suicides).

there is a lot of hope in there without DBH heretical weirdness.

There's an akathist? I need to find that. I've received a lot of comfort from St. Varus.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There's an akathist? I need to find that. I've received a lot of comfort from St. Varus.

http://www.stvladimiraami.org/sheetmusic/canonstvarus.pdf

Canon of Supplication to the Holy Martyr Varus TO WHOM THE GRACE WAS GIVEN TO PRAY FOR THOSE DECEASED ANCESTORS OF CLEOPATRA WHO HAD NOT BEEN VOUCHSAFED TO RECEIVE HOLY BAPTISM