Eastern Orthodox Church Organzation

Afra

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How do the various Eastern Orthodox Churches (Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc.) formally or conceptually relate to one another? Do you conceptualize each church as its own church, or more like individual parishes of 1 big church?

What is it that formally links the various churches together, in terms of government or apostolic succession?

And how do you consider yourself to relate to the Catholic Church (Rome in particular)? For example, if Pope Francis renounced the doctrine of infallability, papal supremacy, we renounced the Filioque and any other doctrines that you find objectionable, where would that leave us in relation to you, from your perspective? In other words, do you all just consider us to be in schism with you, or do you wholly consider us to have no formal connection at all with you?

I know that from our perspective, we would allow you to receive communion at our parishes, even though that may be against your rules.
 

ArmyMatt

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the fullness of the Church is in the local bishop, surrounded by his clergy, in the midst of the faithful. the only universal head is Christ Himself.

from our POV, Rome would have to first renounce her heresies, and then we can talk about communion.

that being said, I have loved working with Roman Catholics where we do agree, particularly social issues.
 
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They can school us on bingo and Palm Sunday pancake breakfasts. We can teach them the fine art of vodka shots and baklava production.

the fullness of the Church is in the local bishop, surrounded by his clergy, in the midst of the faithful. the only universal head is Christ Himself.

from our POV, Rome would have to first renounce her heresies, and then we can talk about communion.

that being said, I have loved working with Roman Catholics where we do agree, particularly social issues.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Welcome to TAW. :)

This isn't an area I can speak about very well, but in case you were possibly wondering, all of the Eastern Orthodox Churches are part of a single communion (with hiccups here and there in history). I can freely receive communion at a Greek, Russian, Serbian, OCA, etc. parish.

There is an ecclesiastical hierarchy with some Churches being under the covering of certain hierarchs, but the sees, autocephaly, etc. are not something I could go deeply into. All do trace back to the Apostles though.

And yes, if we were to receive communion anywhere outside of our own communion (or partake of any Sacrament) ... by that action we remove ourselves from communion. We can be received back through confession, generally, though the details are not something I know anything about, and it's a thing to be taken very seriously.
 
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Afra

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@ArmyMatt @~Anastasia~

Thanks for the replies. I have butted heads with Eastern Orthodox here and there on this forum, but generally I have no major issues with you guys or your theology. I don't doubt your claim to be the "One True Church," even though you would never accord us the same status. I think from our perspective, we tend to view you as in schism because you deny papal supremacy, but otherwise have no heretical doctrines. Whereas you guys look at us as heretics because of our development of doctrine (I think you guys also develop doctrine, but that is a whole other thread). I'll generally only bring up practices of yours that I think are novelties, when you accuse us of the same. It feels to me that you guys have way more beef with us than we have with you, though.

My follow up question would be this. If "the fullness of the Church is in the local bishop, surrounded by his clergy, in the midst of the faithful," how is this not applicable to Pope Francis or any other Catholic bishop?

Sure, one of you will say "Pope Francis teaches heresy therefore his bishopric is invalid," but who among you has the authority to say that Pope Francis is a heretic, when "the only universal head is Christ Himself"? It ain't like our blessed Lord has returned to the earth and made a TV announcement declaring Pope Francis a heretic. That is, if all of the bishops are essentially equal in your view in terms of authority, I do not see how the Greek Orthodox head, the Russian Orthodox head, etc. has any right to call Pope Francis or any other bishop a heretic.
 
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ArmyMatt

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@ArmyMatt @~Anastasia~

Thanks for the replies. I have butted heads with Eastern Orthodox here and there on this forum, but generally I have no major issues with you guys or your theology. I don't doubt your claim to be the "One True Church," even though you would never accord us the same status. I think from our perspective, we tend to view you as in schism because you deny papal supremacy, but otherwise have no heretical doctrines. Whereas you guys look at us as heretics because of our development of doctrine (I think you guys also develop doctrine, but that is a whole other thread). I'll generally only bring up practices of yours that I think are novelties, when you accuse us of the same. It feels to me that you guys have way more beef with us than we have with you, though.

My follow up question would be this. If "the fullness of the Church is in the local bishop, surrounded by his clergy, in the midst of the faithful," how is this not applicable to Pope Francis or any other Catholic bishop?

Sure, one of you will say "Pope Francis teaches heresy therefore his bishopric is invalid," but who among you has the authority to say that Pope Francis is a heretic, when "the only universal head is Christ Himself"? It ain't like our blessed Lord has returned to the earth and made a TV announcement declaring Pope Francis a heretic. That is, if all of the bishops are essentially equal in your view in terms of authority, I do not see how the Greek Orthodox head, the Russian Orthodox head, etc. has any right to call Pope Francis or any other bishop a heretic.

because the local bishop is a bishop of THE Church. the Roman Pope has not been a member of the Church since he split from us. we can say this because Christ is the universal head of the Church Pope Francis is not a part of.
 
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Afra

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because the local bishop is a bishop of THE Church. the Roman Pope has not been a member of the Church since he split from us. we can say this because Christ is the universal head of the Church Pope Francis is not a part of.
Sure, but who among you has the authority to say that a bishop has split from you? Can a Russian Orthodox bishop declare that a Greek Orthodox bishop has split from the Church? Obviously, Pope Francis does not believe that he has left the church. Who among you has authority to say otherwise?
 
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~Anastasia~

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Im not trying by to be argumentative, but that pretty much suggests there was no schism, and we all know there was.

I certainly understand that each side has its own view of who split from whom, so clearly we would disagree on that.

But neither side can simply choose not to recognize that it happened and pretend we are in full communion, even if we wanted to. It wouldn't be true. So not even the Papal office or one of our Patriarchates can suggest that.

None of us has that authority. That's kind of the point.

Again, not trying to be argumentative. :)
 
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Afra

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Im not trying by to be argumentative, but that pretty much suggests there was no schism, and we all know there was.

I certainly understand that each side has its own view of who split from whom, so clearly we would disagree on that.

But neither side can simply choose not to recognize that it happened and pretend we are in full communion, even if we wanted to. It wouldn't be true. So not even the Papal office or one of our Patriarchates can suggest that.

None of us has that authority. That's kind of the point.

Again, not trying to be argumentative. :)
Well, I think that from our standpoint, the Pope is a person who has power to declare other bishops to be in schism. From our standpoint one bishop is above the others, and the bishop at the top can excommunicate other bishops.

But I am wondering who in the Eastern Orthodox would have the authority to declare another bishop to be in schism, if all of the bishops have the same authority and power? It seems kind of like the governor of Texas trying to impeach the governor of Ohio.

For example, if a Russian Orthodox bishop were to say "Pope Francis is now in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church," who among you could say otherwise?

Or like, if a random Russian Orthodox bishop started teaching new doctrines that a Greek Orthodox bishop thought was heresy, who would have authority to correct the Russian Orthodox bishop, if all of the bishops have equal power?
 
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Afra

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And you're welcome btw. Please forgive me if my answers before were too simplistic. I just thought part of your post might not have been addressed and was trying to be helpful. :)
We are still cool. Perhaps you can teach me how to use the chotki I bought, when it arrives?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Sure, but who among you has the authority to say that a bishop has split from you? Can a Russian Orthodox bishop declare that a Greek Orthodox bishop has split from the Church? Obviously, Pope Francis does not believe that he has left the church. Who among you has authority to say otherwise?

if the bishop taught heresy, then yes. Rome according to her own history teaches heresy.
 
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Afra

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if the bishop taught heresy, then yes. Rome according to her own history teaches heresy.
I think we have this idea of "automatic excommunication" although I am not extremely familiar with it. I would think that if a Pope or other bishop were to knowingly teach heresy (as you believe we do, of course), he would in effect be "automatically excommunicated" although not formally excommunicated.

But the question still remains I think. Who among you has authority to formally declare that another bishop teaches heresy? If for example, a Russian Orthodox bishop teaches X, what authority does a Greek Orthodox bishop have to declare that he has taught heresy, when they both have equal authority? The Russian Orthodox bishop would simply say "Nope. Sorry. I have not taught heresy." They both have equal say.

I would guess that you would need something like getting all of the bishops in the Eastern Orthodox Church together, and essentially taking a vote among them as to whether the Russian Orthodox bishop has taught heresy or not, right?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think we have this idea of "automatic excommunication" although I am not extremely familiar with it. I would think that if a Pope or other bishop were to knowingly teach heresy (as you believe we do, of course), he would in effect be "automatically excommunicated" although not formally excommunicated.

But the question still remains I think. Who among you has authority to formally declare that another bishop teaches heresy? If for example, a Russian Orthodox bishop teaches X, what authority does a Greek Orthodox bishop have to declare that he has taught heresy, when they both have equal authority? The Russian Orthodox bishop would simply say "Nope. Sorry. I have not taught heresy." They both have equal say.

I would guess that you would need something like getting all of the bishops in the Eastern Orthodox Church together, and essentially taking a vote among them as to whether the Russian Orthodox bishop has taught heresy or not, right?

if the entire Church teaches X, then one bishop teaches Not X, then the whole Church (including the one bishop) dogmatizes X and condemns Not X, then that one bishop changes again and condemns X and dogmatizes Not X, and then says X and Not X really are the same, that one bishop teaches heresy.

Rome did that.
 
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Afra

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if the entire Church teaches X, then one bishop teaches Not X, then the whole Church (including the one bishop) dogmatizes X and condemns Not X, then that one bishop changes again and condemns X and dogmatizes Not X, and then says X and Not X really are the same, that one bishop teaches heresy.

Rome did that.
Understood. I appreciate your answers.

You certainly are under no obligation to answer my questions, but in your hypothetical, who has authority to assert that "the entire Church teaches X"?

Any bishop who teaches anything believes that his own teaching is consistent with what the Church teaches. In your hypothetical, Rome will simply say "No, the entire church does not condemn Not X", while another bishop will say "Yes, the entire church condemns Not X." Who has the authority to declare that one of them is correct and the other is wrong, if all of the bishops in the church have equal authority?
 
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Understood. I appreciate your answers.

You certainly are under no obligation to answer my questions, but in your hypothetical, who has authority to assert that "the entire Church teaches X"?

Any bishop who teaches anything believes that his own teaching is consistent with what the Church teaches. In your hypothetical, Rome will simply say "No, the entire church does not condemn Not X", while another bishop will say "Yes, the entire church condemns Not X." Who has the authority to declare that one of them is correct and the other is wrong, if all of the bishops in the church have equal authority?

you look to the Fathers, the Councils, etc to see which is true. the Holy Spirit is promised to the consensus of the Church from the beginning. so whichever maintains that consensus is the Truth. whoever doesn't is the heretic.
 
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Afra

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you look to the Fathers, the Councils, etc to see which is true. the Holy Spirit is promised to the consensus of the Church from the beginning. so whichever maintains that consensus is the Truth. whoever doesn't is the heretic.
Thank you.
 
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Understood. I appreciate your answers.

You certainly are under no obligation to answer my questions, but in your hypothetical, who has authority to assert that "the entire Church teaches X"?

Any bishop who teaches anything believes that his own teaching is consistent with what the Church teaches. In your hypothetical, Rome will simply say "No, the entire church does not condemn Not X", while another bishop will say "Yes, the entire church condemns Not X." Who has the authority to declare that one of them is correct and the other is wrong, if all of the bishops in the church have equal authority?

There exists a synod. Majority rules and if a bishop is in the minority and doesn't correct his ways. He can be excommunicated. Unfortunatey the church no longer has an emperor to call a council. The churches dogma is more or less set. So there may not be a need of one. The church does have a problem in this regard. The EP recently tried to gather a council that didn't go over to well with other members.
 
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We are still cool. Perhaps you can teach me how to use the chotki I bought, when it arrives?
Ah well I can tell you the basic prayer we usually use and point you to some books. But that's something we actually don't go into deeply with the guidance of a spiritual father. The reason is that things can get deep when you go beyond basic prayers, and delusion is a very real possibility, so we are careful to guard against it. That's not to say anything bad about you. It's that I don't have the experience or authority to say much or to oversee anyone else's spiritual walk myself.
 
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