Earth Tilt Question

[juvenissun]

Juve wrote:


But by changing the meaning of the words we see, doesn't that throw into question any literal reading of any part of the Bible?

I see two stages of doubt that your point raises - first, in reading any text, we now have to doubt if this is an accurate translation of the Hebrew (OT) or greek (NT) words - so no verse can be taken at face value without checking every word in the lexicon before speaking. What a pain - can you see being able to even do a reading from the Bible with this requirement?

Second - is the lexicon divinely inspired? Or was it made by humans and could thus not know for sure what the ancient words meant? If that's the case (and it seems inevitable), then we can't be sure of any literal reading, even after checking the lexicon, because any word could have a different meaning from the plain english (stage 1 above) or from what is in the lexicon (stage two, this paragraph).

Papias

Yes, it is very inconvenient. That is why many blessed ones study Hebrew. And if we are capable, we all should read the Hebrew Bible instead of KJV. That is also why the translation is very important. I would say that at least 80% of the translation is trustworthy on the main message. How much details should one investigate is a matter of extra effort, which is special to the person.

The word "season" in Gen 1 is a good example. I never feel the need to look it up in the lexicon until I read your message. But if I continued to overlook it, it will not hinder the main message of the Gen 1 either. In this sense, the lexicon is still very useful, even it may not solve all the problems.

 

[juvenissun]

Thanks for the links on the giant impact theory.

I don't think the impact theory can explain the tilting of the earth.

If it were true, then what about the tilting status of the Mars, Venus, and the Mercury? Did they also get similar impacts (or lack of impact)?

 

[Standing Up]

I don't think the impact theory can explain the tilting of the earth.

If it were true, then what about the tilting status of the Mars, Venus, and the Mercury? Did they also get similar impacts (or lack of impact)?

What do you think caused the earth tilt (assuming there was a time when it wasn't tilted)?

 

[juvenissun]

What do you think caused the earth tilt (assuming there was a time when it wasn't tilted)?

I don't think any body knows.

My opinion: the Global Flood is not the cause of the tilting, but is the consequence of the tilting. The movie 2012 does show some good ideas.

So, my guess is that the tilting is caused by the mass balance adjustment of the earth itself. This process could be different from planet to planet.

 

[Mallon]

The movie 2012 does show some good ideas.

Now I KNOW you're not a geologist, juvie! 2012 posits increased tectonism as a result of "mutant nutrinos" from the sun. Gimme a break! (I also don't remember anything about the tilt of the earth changing.)

 

[juvenissun]

Well answered

It is worth looking at the full verse though. Gen 8:22 While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease." While this is the first mention of specific seasons, the passage is talking about things that existed before the flood too, day and night, which were describe before the seasons in Gen 1.

It is nice for you to mention this.

Every thing mentioned in verse 22, except the seasons, existed on earth no matter if the earth is tilted or not . but if the tilting of the earth took place in the middle of the earth history, then all these items will be changed, include the length of day and night.

 

[juvenissun]

Now I KNOW you're not a geologist, juvie! 2012 posits increased tectonism as a result of "mutant nutrinos" from the sun. Gimme a break! (I also don't remember anything about the tilt of the earth changing.)

I don't know about nutrinos. But what happened after the nurtinos hit is not too far fetched. The movie fictionally called nutrinos for the source of sudden extra heat inside the earth. However, the heat flow inside the earth is a constant feature. I do believe that the burst of large amount of heat transfer between the core/mantle/crust did happen frequently in the history of the earth. The Permian extinction could be a dramatic demonstration of the process.

 

[Standing Up]

Well answered

It is worth looking at the full verse though. Gen 8:22 While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease." While this is the first mention of specific seasons, the passage is talking about things that existed before the flood too, day and night, which were describe before the seasons in Gen 1.

It is nice for you to mention this.

Every thing mentioned in verse 22, except the seasons, existed on earth no matter if the earth is tilted or not . but if the tilting of the earth took place in the middle of the earth history, then all these items will be changed, include the length of day and night.

Earth tilt "brought about" the seasons, no? IOW there was only one season prior to the tilt. Right?

 

[Mallon]

I don't know about nutrinos. But what happened after the nurtinos hit is not too far fetched. The movie fictionally called nutrinos for the source of sudden extra heat inside the earth. However, the heat flow inside the earth is a constant feature. I do believe that the burst of large amount of heat transfer between the core/mantle/crust did happen frequently in the history of the earth. The Permian extinction could be a dramatic demonstration of the process.

I thought YECs didn't believe in the Permian extinction. That's based on contemporary palaeontological and geological science, after all.

 

[Assyrian]

It is nice for you to mention this.

Every thing mentioned in verse 22, except the seasons, existed on earth no matter if the earth is tilted or not . but if the tilting of the earth took place in the middle of the earth history, then all these items will be changed, include the length of day and night.

I don't think there is much difference in the length of day around Mesopotamia and Israel, too near the equator, it would be even less noticable when you measure time by dividing daylight and night time into 12 hours each. Tilting would change the length of day but the colder nights of winter would be much more noticable than how long they were. Speaking of cold, heat and cold in the verse are sandwiched between seedtime and harvest, and summer and winter, suggesting they are talking about temperature changing with the seasons, rather than a nice cup of tea or an ice cream. Having specific seedtime and harvest suggests changes in growing seasons, if there were no seasons crops could be planted all year round. If all the others are he result of axis tilting during the flood, it makes the inclusion of day and night form the creation a very odd addition to Noah's first introduction to seasons.

 

[Standing Up]

I don't think there is much difference in the length of day around Mesopotamia and Israel, too near the equator, it would be even less noticable when you measure time by dividing daylight and night time into 12 hours each. Tilting would change the length of day but the colder nights of winter would be much more noticable than how long they were. Speaking of cold, heat and cold in the verse are sandwiched between seedtime and harvest, and summer and winter, suggesting they are talking about temperature changing with the seasons, rather than a nice cup of tea or an ice cream. Having specific seedtime and harvest suggests changes in growing seasons, if there were no seasons crops could be planted all year round. If all the others are he result of axis tilting during the flood, it makes the inclusion of day and night form the creation a very odd addition to Noah's first introduction to seasons.

So, you're saying there is some connection between Noah's flood and the earth's tilt because Genesis 8:22 mentions something new--no more seamless crop time, but a time of growth and fallow. Like the rainbow--something not known before evidently.

Noah's ark rests on the 17th of the seveth month (Gen. 8:4). Later in Exo 12:2, God says this is the first month (mar/april and sep/oct).

The way I understand that association is that it ties to the "new" equinoxes (fall and spring for north and south of the equator) from the associated flood and/or tilt.

Thoughts?

Comments?

 

[juvenissun]

I thought YECs didn't believe in the Permian extinction. That's based on contemporary palaeontological and geological science, after all.

Permian extinction is a feature, you may say it is a fact. To YEC, all Permian, extinction, and Permian extinction, are subjected to interpretation.

 

[juvenissun]

I don't think there is much difference in the length of day around Mesopotamia and Israel, too near the equator, it would be even less noticable when you measure time by dividing daylight and night time into 12 hours each. Tilting would change the length of day but the colder nights of winter would be much more noticable than how long they were. Speaking of cold, heat and cold in the verse are sandwiched between seedtime and harvest, and summer and winter, suggesting they are talking about temperature changing with the seasons, rather than a nice cup of tea or an ice cream. Having specific seedtime and harvest suggests changes in growing seasons, if there were no seasons crops could be planted all year round. If all the others are he result of axis tilting during the flood, it makes the inclusion of day and night form the creation a very odd addition to Noah's first introduction to seasons.

Not noticeable, but still varied. So, it "should" be mentioned.

 

[Assyrian]

So, you're saying there is some connection between Noah's flood and the earth's tilt because Genesis 8:22 mentions something new--no more seamless crop time, but a time of growth and fallow. Like the rainbow--something not known before evidently.

No sorry, that's what I am not saying. I disagree with the interpretation that because something is mentioned for the first time in the bible, it never existed before that, whether rainbows, rain, even death. It doesn't follow. Being the first time it is mentioned simply means it is the first time it is mentioned. What I was doing was looking at this argument and pointing out how day and night seemed out of place if this was a list of features being given for the first time. In other words, I don't think they are out of place because they predate the flood and like day and night are all part of the way God created the world.

Incidentally, although the word harvest is not used, Cain offering of the fruits of the earth in he course of time, or literally, in the end of days Gen 4:3, sounds very like a harvest offering, when crops bearing fruit in their proper time, ie seasonally.

Noah's ark rests on the 17th of the seveth month (Gen. 8:4). Later in Exo 12:2, God says this is the first month (mar/april and sep/oct).

The way I understand that association is that it ties to the "new" equinoxes (fall and spring for north and south of the equator) from the associated flood and/or tilt.

Thoughts?

Comments?

Not sure how to tie in the dates in Genesis with the new calendar established after the Passover. I would say either (1) They are unconnected, and Genesis simply uses a different calendar, in fact the dates given for Noah seem to be based from his birthday, Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month. But they could be a completely different system. Alternatively they could be using the Jewish calendar and the dates are read back anachronistically, the way we use modern dates to describe event in the past before the Julian calendar was established.

 

[Assyrian]

Not noticeable, but still varied. So, it "should" be mentioned.

Not when the passage isn't talking about unnoticeable variation, but days and seasons not ceasing.

 

[juvenissun]

Not when the passage isn't talking about unnoticeable variation, but days and seasons not ceasing.

If so, why should this verse be given at all? If the rainbow existed in Gen. 1, then why is it more special than any other natural features for the sign of a new covenant? We rarely see a rainbow, but we always see, for example, a river.

 

[Mallon]

Ecc 1 seems to imply that the seasons were established from the beginning of the earth.

 

[Assyrian]

If so, why should this verse be given at all? If the rainbow existed in Gen. 1, then why is it more special than any other natural features for the sign of a new covenant? We rarely see a rainbow, but we always see, for example, a river.

Bread existed before the last supper and lambs before the Passover, doesn't stop them being given deep symbolic meaning and used as the signs of covenants. Personally I wouldn't quibble with God about how common rainbow is or try telling him a river would be a better symbol. I think it is up to him to chose his own symbols, he is quite good at it, what we need to do is to try learn how to understand the meaning of the symbols and metaphors he does use.

For people who had just been through a catastrophe like the flood, the promise that the normal cycles of life on earth would continue seems quite relevant to me.

 

[Standing Up]

-snip-

For people who had just been through a catastrophe like the flood, the promise that the normal cycles of life on earth would continue seems quite relevant to me.

Yes and that's the point of it. You see a rainbow for the first time, it means the rain has stopped and the sun is shining. IOW, it will not flood anymore (like it did). That's the sure promise.

***

Anyway, does Noah's flood relate to the earth's tilt that relates to the seasons and to the 7th month becoming the 1st month (spring/fall equinox times). All of those things seem related in Genesis (and then the 7th month (ark rests) to 1st month change in Ex w/ passover).

I don't see a comet hitting at that time (maybe it did or maybe it didn't earlier, but just going by scripture first and seeing what folks think from there).

Comments?

Thoughts?


*

 

[Assyrian]

Yes and that's the point of it. You see a rainbow for the first time, it means the rain has stopped and the sun is shining. IOW, it will not flood anymore (like it did). That's the sure promise.

***

I think that applies whether it is the first time you see a rainbow or not. Mind you I have looked at rainbows while it was still raining.

Anyway, does Noah's flood relate to the earth's tilt that relates to the seasons and to the 7th month becoming the 1st month (spring/fall equinox times). All of those things seem related in Genesis (and then the 7th month (ark rests) to 1st month change in Ex w/ passover).

I don't see a comet hitting at that time (maybe it did or maybe it didn't earlier, but just going by scripture first and seeing what folks think from there).

Comments?

Thoughts?


*

Where do you get the idea the seventh month became the first month?