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Earth created, then universe, then stretched so light was here all along

Job 33:6

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Genesis does not address this as it is concerned with the creation that will be for the human's God's creates. But Ezekiel does somewhat address this.

You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.


I believe after satans fall that earth was judged and flooded and the lights were cut out.
Or, here is another way to think about it.

When George began to study in his room, and the sun was setting and the music was turned down, then George said "let there be a notebook".

You see, the second verse is like a descriptor of the first verse. It's explaining verse 1 with additional detail, or in grammatical terms, it is a restrictive parenthetical clause. Its giving detail to verse 1 to help give clarity.

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth -

(begin clarifying detail) now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep, while the spirit of God swept over the face of the waters (end clarifying detail)...

Then eventually by verse 3, God creates.

This is an ancient near eastern, common style of literary introduction to creation narratives.

And if you haven't seen my last few posts, I have color coded the examples above to help clarify.
 
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d taylor

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I enjoy this concept. Though, there's still this critical issue that, what you're describing, isn't actually in Genesis.

If it said "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" , "then there was the fall" "and then God said, let there be light"

Then it would be a simple call to make.

But as it is, Genesis simply says that God created, and that's it.

And so it is, actually in many ancient near east creation stories, heaven and earth start out formless. Then God steps in and creates it. And after 6 days of creating it, it is then no longer formless.

Like taking a formless piece of clay and over 6 days molding it into a beautiful vase.

You see? Then there is no need to insert ideas about Satan destroying creation or anything like that wedged in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
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It does not have to actually be in Genesis, as Genesis' focus is on a future place God is making for humanity. Satan has already fallen been judged and sentenced. Satan's only connection to this current age and creation is that satan was able to seize away from man. The place God made for man, in hopes to escape his eventual sentence to the lake of fire.
 
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Yarddog

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The earth was created before the sun and stars. So the stars were made as lights for us. We were here first. That seems related to how light from stars got here right away. If God then stretched the heavens as we are told in Psalms then the stars presumably would then be further away. No fast light speed involved. Anyone have anything to add or think they can correct about that?
The creation is an allegory.
 
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truthpls

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Ephesians 4:8 ESV
[8] Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

Psalm 68:18 ESV
[18] You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the Lord God may dwell there.

New testament revelation does not change what the old testament says. They often talk about different things. And this is a pretty straightforward example.
The earth was here, and we see that in Gen. The deep was on this planet. The waters separated from the land were on this planet. Then the light was created and shone on this world. Later the stars were placed in the heavens. Not the heavens with the birds. Unless you see stars over the trees in your yard?
 
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truthpls

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You're not engaging with, and thinking critically about ancient Israelite cosmology in Genesis.
The topic actually is cosmology and time etc. The issue is whether the idea that light from the stars got here right away because earth was here first, as well as that the heavens were stretched out at some time. If that was after the stars were put there, that could help explain why they now are so far. You seem to be thinking biblical cosmology involves something else than the bible
 
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Job 33:6

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It does not have to actually be in Genesis, as Genesis' focus is on a future place God is making for humanity. Satan has already fallen been judged and sentenced. Satan's only connection to this current age and creation is that satan was able to seize away from man. The place God made for man, in hopes to escape his eventual sentence to the lake of fire.

Even if we stretched our thoughts to incorporate these ideas into Genesis, though they are not mentioned, why would this be a better explanation, than an understanding that parallel multiple other creation stories and events, be it Kar 4, Enuma Elish, or even Genesis chapter 2?

Same with the Memphite Theology as well. It was common in the ancient near east, be it Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Mesopotamia and beyond, to speak of creation in which heaven and earth, when they were created, they originally began as formless and watery.not having anything to do with them being destroyed by other spirit beings or anything like that.

This idea that some kind of cosmic battle unfolded between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 not only leaves out this major event that goes unmentioned, it additionally has no precedence in the Bible itself (there is nothing in Ezekiel for example that says anything about earth becoming formless after God first created it) and it additionally runs counter to the historical context of the ancient near east.

The same style of literary introduction is right there in Genesis chapter 2. We don't have to go far to see it.
 
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Job 33:6

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The topic actually is cosmology and time etc. The issue is whether the idea that light from the stars got here right away because earth was here first, as well as that the heavens were stretched out at some time. If that was after the stars were put there, that could help explain why they now are so far. You seem to be thinking biblical cosmology involves something else than the bible
Biblical cosmology is important, because it provides insight into historical context. In the historical ancient Israelite context of the day, it was common for both earth, and the stars/sun/ and moon to all collectively exist before God began creating.

That's the point. And that's why you have light before God created the sun. The sun was already there. God simply had not yet created it (ex materia).

Genesis 1:12, 14-16 NRSVUE
[12] The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good.
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, [15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. [16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.

And if you look at the text, it doesn't say that God created the sun and it appeared out of nothing. Rather it says that God created the sun to do something. To rule. To be for seasons etc. to separate etc.

Like creating a teenager to play football. Or in English we might think of it as making a boy into a man or manking a boy into a football player by giving him a helmet and bringing him forth onto the football field. You are creating a football player to do something, to play football.

creating a football player does not mean making a football player appear out of thin air. It's about meaning and purpose and design etc.

That's why the very first verse above says that the earth "brought forth" vegetation. It's God making these things to do things. It's not God making things in the sense that they just appear out of nothing.

1:1 When heaven had been separated from the earth, the distant trusty twin,

1:2 (And) the mother of the goddesses had been brought into being; When the earth had been brought forth (and) the earth had been fashioned; When the destinies of heaven and earth had been fixed; (When) trench and canal had been given (their) right courses, (And) the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates had been established

1:3 (Then) Anu, Enlil, Šamaš, (and) Ea, the great gods, (And) the Anunnaki, the great gods, Seated themselves in the exalted sanctuary and recounted among themselves what had been created.

You see it in other ancient near east creation texts as well. See above. Fashioning as in, molding or shaping or defining, making etc.


1:1 When on high heaven was not named, and the earth, beneath a name did not bear –

1:2. primeval Apsu [fresh water] was their progenitor, life-giving Tiamat [salt water], the bearer of all; their waters together they mingled, no canebrake yet formed, no marsh discoverable – when of the gods none had appeared, names were not borne, destinies not decided,

1:3. the gods were given shape within them, Lah̬mu and Lah̬amu made to appear, names they bore.

Naming (like Adam named animals) being born, not yet formed, names, destinies, given shape etc.

Consider this text in comparison to Genesis 1:1. And you'll see, it's just the way that ancient texts begin. They begin with formless material, then God steps in and makes them.

Or here is another, Genesis 2:

4 When the Lord God created earth and heaven—

5 Now no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet to grow, since the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth and there was no man to work the ground 6 (but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground)—

7 The Lord God formed man from dust of the ground….

Formed. Growth. Watering the ground etc.

These literary introductions are styled in a way in which verse 2 extrapolates and clarifies on the nature of verse 1.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth,

[2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

[3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

It doesn't say "when heaven and earth appeared out of nothing". It says "when God began to create".



 
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d taylor

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Even if we stretched our thoughts to incorporate these ideas into Genesis, though they are not mentioned, why would this be a better explanation, than an understanding that parallel multiple other creation stories and events, be it Kar 4, Enuma Elish, or even Genesis chapter 2?

Same with the Memphite Theology as well. It was common in the ancient near east, be it Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Mesopotamia and beyond, to speak of creation in which heaven and earth, when they were created, they originally began as formless and watery.not having anything to do with them being destroyed by other spirit beings or anything like that.

This idea that some kind of cosmic battle unfolded between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 not only leaves out this major event that goes unmentioned, it additionally has no precedence in the Bible itself (there is nothing in Ezekiel for example that says anything about earth becoming formless after God first created it) and it additionally runs counter to the historical context of the ancient near east.

The same style of literary introduction is right there in Genesis chapter 2. We don't have to go far to see it.
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Genesis 1:1 is complete in it's self. It did not take God 6 days to create the original created heaven and earth. God spoke and it was. Just like it did not take Jesus 6, 7, 8 days or a month to heal someone. They were healed in a moment of time.

That is why a different word is used in the 10 commandments about God making the earth in 6days and Genesis 1:1 and God creating the heavens and earth. Because what was made in 6 days was made from what was created in a moment of time in Genesis 1:1.
 
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Job 33:6

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Genesis 1:1 is complete in it's self. It did not take God 6 days to create the original created heaven and earth.
But the Bible even says:

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

And;

Genesis 2:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all their multitude. [2] On the sixth day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. [3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.

It doesn't say that creation was complete or finished in verse 1. It doesn't claim completion until after 6 days.

You're imagining multiple complete creations, rather than just observing what the text says. God created just 1 time, over 6 days. Not 2 times over 6 days.

Also, bara and asah are used interchangeably in the Bible. It's not as though Exodus is talking about some different creation than Genesis. For example: Adam and Eve are asah in Genesis 2 while bara in Genesis 1:26-28 but that doesn't mean that Adam and Eve were created twice.

You're going against the historical context of Genesis, while simultaneously injecting this epic battle between Satan and his angels against God mysteriously wedged between Genesis 1:1 to 1:2.

And Genesis just doesn't say that heaven and earth were created twice or created then destroyed then recreated between verse 1:1-1:2. This idea of yours simply isn't in the Bible. It's just imagined.
 
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d taylor

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But the Bible even says:

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

And;

Genesis 2:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all their multitude. [2] On the sixth day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. [3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.

It doesn't say that creation was complete or finished in verse 1. It doesn't claim completion until after 6 days.

You're imagining multiple complete creations, rather than just observing what the text says. God created just 1 time, over 6 days. Not 2 times over 6 days.

Also, bara and asah are used interchangeably in the Bible. It's not as though Exodus is talking about some different creation than Genesis. For example: Adam and Eve are asah in Genesis 2 while bara in Genesis 1:26-28 but that doesn't mean that Adam and Eve were created twice.
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No i am saying there is one creation which was created in Genesis 1:1 and that creation was judged and flooded. That God takes this creation He spoke into existence in Genesis 1:1 in a moment of time. And begins to restore this creation, but this time to be prepared for the home of humans. Who God will create from the earth and the male, God created from the earth. Which gave the man a mate Eve.
There was no time as we know time in the creation, created in Genesis 1:1. Time as we know it, being connected to the ending and beginning of a day. Did not start until God began to restore the earth in Genesis 1:3 to 31

That is why the physical earth can not be aged determined by science. Man's (humans) beginning can be known by the creation of the man.
 
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truthpls

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Biblical cosmology is important, because it provides insight into historical context. In the historical ancient Israelite context of the day, it was common for both earth, and the stars/sun/ and moon to all collectively exist before God began creating.
The reason it was common is that is what they heard passed down probably.
That's the point. And that's why you have light before God created the sun. The sun was already there. God simply had not yet created it (ex materia).
Then you have no point and put the cart before the horse
Genesis 1:12, 14-16 NRSVUE
[12] The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good.
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, [15] and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. [16] God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.

And if you look at the text, it doesn't say that God created the sun and it appeared out of nothing. Rather it says that God created the sun to do something. To rule. To be for seasons etc. to separate etc.
Key phrase is created. Whatever reasons He did so are beside the point as to whether He spoke and they came to exist or not
creating a football player does not mean making a football player appear out of thin air. It's about meaning and purpose and design etc.
Man creates differently than the Almighty
That's why the very first verse above says that the earth "brought forth" vegetation. It's God making these things to do things. It's not God making things in the sense that they just appear out of nothing.
No. In the case of vegetation, it apparently was not spoken into existence (at least on earth). Just like God planted a garden. In that case we know He did not just wiggle His nose and a garden appeared
You see it in other ancient near east creation texts as well. See above. Fashioning as in, molding or shaping or defining, making etc.
He did a lot of forming after He created it. The separation of land and water for example
Naming (like Adam named animals) being born, not yet formed, names, destinies, given shape etc.
Like a drug trip for heathen, they get some things twisted
5 Now no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet to grow, since the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth and there was no man to work the ground 6 (but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground)—

7 The Lord God formed man from dust of the ground….

Formed. Growth. Watering the ground etc.
God formed Adam like a potter forms clay. Then He made Him alive
These literary introductions are styled in a way in which verse 2 extrapolates and clarifies on the nature of verse 1.
When He clarifies something, great. It clarifies, for example how He created by speaking and it was so in many
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth,

[2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

[3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

It doesn't say "when heaven and earth appeared out of nothing". It says "when God began to create".
The earth had t be here first to be either in light or dark.
 
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Job 33:6

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The reason it was common is that is what they heard passed down probably.
Either way, that's what's known as "historical context". If you want to read the Bible in context, you look at how people spoken and wrote in that time. Including elsewhere in the Bible, such as chapter 2.
Key phrase is created.
Assuming you are familiar with the English language, you should know that "create" does not inherently mean "ex nihilo". I can create a business. I can create a work of art. But creation doesn't mean that material matter is appearing out of nothing.
No. In the case of vegetation, it apparently was not spoken into existence (at least on earth). Just like God planted a garden. In that case we know He did not just wiggle His nose and a garden appeared
Planting a garden is not ex nihilo. I can plant a garden, but what does that have to do with matter appearing out of nothing?
He did a lot of forming after He created it. The separation of land and water for example
No. The creation wasn't finished until after the 6 days of creation.

I feel like you guys aren't reading your Bibles.

Genesis 2:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all their multitude. [2] On the sixth day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. [3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.

He didn't create it in verse 1. He created it in 6 days.
God formed Adam like a potter forms clay. Then He made Him alive
Yup. Ex materia.
When He clarifies something, great. It clarifies, for example how He created by speaking and it was so in many
Yup. And God's speaking did not occur in verse 1. It first occurs in verse 3. So we know that verse 1 has nothing to do with God creating by speaking.
 
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truthpls

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Either way, that's what's known as "historical context".
No. The context is that creation predates history. All accounts passed down, good or bad came after creation. If you believe Jesus created it all then we would believe the scriptures He endorsed and fulfilled
Assuming you are familiar with the English language, you should know that "create" does not inherently mean "ex nihilo". I can create a business. I can create a work of art. But creation doesn't mean that material matter is appearing out of nothing.
It does mean that when it says He spoke and it was so
Planting a garden is not ex nihilo. I can plant a garden, but what does that have to do with matter appearing out of nothing?
Right and forming man from the ground is not from nothing either. Speaking something and it becomes so is another matter.
No. The creation wasn't finished until after the 6 days of creation.
I know. So?
I feel like you guys aren't reading your Bibles.
Your feelings are wrong
Genesis 2:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all their multitude. [2] On the sixth day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. [3] So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.

He didn't create it in verse 1. He created it in 6 days.
All the things in creation week were finished after 6 days. That does not mean man was not created on the sixth day or that the earth on day one etc
Yup. And God's speaking did not occur in verse 1. It first occurs in verse 3. So we know that verse 1 has nothing to do with God creating by speaking.
All that happened up to verse 5 was the first day. Earth and heaven and dividing the land from water etc. So however He did it, He did it on day 1! Not sure how you think a planet and empty universe can be made in a day (and a bunch of things also happen that day to the earth) by some other way? But it doesn't matter. It was day one. No big bang. No billions of years. No stars yet on day one. etc
 
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Job 33:6

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No. The context is that creation predates history.
That doesn't make any sense. That's like saying that the Hebrew language that Moses wrote in, predates history. I'm sorry, but it does not.

Just because the story is about events that predate history, does not mean that the text was written at a time before history.

I can write a story about events of pre history, and my way of writing that story can be through my own context of 21st century English and western culture. Just because the story is about prehistorical events, does not mean that the text lacks the contextual background of Moses and the other ancient isrealites that God used to write the text down.

All the things in creation week were finished after 6 days. That does not mean man was not created on the sixth day or that the earth on day one etc
I never said that man wasn't created on the 6th day. You don't appear to have any idea what I'm describing.

Also, earth was created on day 2:

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Not on day 1. Light is created on day 1.
All that happened up to verse 5 was the first day.
Incorrect. The actual creation begins in verse 3. All days of creation, and God's acts of creation, begin with "God said".

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

God doesn't begin speaking, until verse 3. Verse 1 is just an introduction. Nothing actually happens in verse 1.
 
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Everyone wants to repeat "God created in 6 days, 6 days creation, Creation in 6 days!"

Then all of a sudden when we actually start reading the Bible, then it's "oh no! Actually God created in verse 1! The rest of the days, he's just doing something else!"

Or:

"God spoke and that's that! God creates with the spoken word!"

Then you point out that God doesn't speak until verse 3, then all of a sudden they switch to:

"Oh sometimes God creates by speaking and other times He doesn't!"

You have people imagining Satan and angels rebelling in some epic battle and Satan fall, magically wedged in between 1:1 and 1:2, even though Genesis doesn't say anything like that.

You guys are all just completely inconsistent with your logic and reading of the Bible.
 
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truthpls

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That doesn't make any sense. That's like saying that the Hebrew language that Moses wrote in, predates history. I'm sorry, but it does not.

Just because the story is about events that predate history, does not mean that the text was written at a time before history.

I can write a story about events of pre history, and my way of writing that story can be through my own context of 21st century English and western culture. Just because the story is about prehistorical events, does not mean that the text lacks the contextual background of Moses and the other ancient isrealites that God used to write the text down.


I never said that man wasn't created on the 6th day. You don't appear to have any idea what I'm describing.
It makes perfect sense. Various people would have some sort of legends about the creation that happened a few thousand years before. Those get diluted and passed down. Except for God's word
Also, earth was created on day 2:

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Nope that was done day The dry land was CALLED earth on day 2. The planet was here already
Not on day 1. Light is created on day 1.
To light the deep, which is earth at the time. Waters and land not separated yet
God doesn't begin speaking, until verse 3. Verse 1 is just an introduction. Nothing actually happens in verse 1.
Yes the heavens and earth were created. The land separated etc. It specifies after that which day it was. The first day. No reason for your confusion at all.
 
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Job 33:6

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It makes perfect sense. Various people would have some sort of legends about the creation that happened a few thousand years before. Those get diluted and passed down. Except for God's word
You seem to have switched to another topic. You said:

"No. The context is that creation predates history."

And I'm simply pointing out that the context is with Moses, and Moses wrote Genesis down. So no, the context does not predate history anymore than the Hebrew language does. And that's what the Bible is written in.

Nope that was done day The dry land was CALLED earth on day 2. The planet was here already
Yup. And that's God's description of creation of the earth. That's what day 3 (correction here) is all about.

Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

This is all about the creation of the earth by moving the waters off of it. And God saw that it was good.

And let's look at day 2:
Genesis 1:6-8 ESV
[6] And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Here is God creating heaven^. And it was so. Nobody would ever read this and think "oh God called the expanse "heaven" this isn't actually about God creating anything."

Well excuse me, if God didn't create the heavens on day 2, then what do you think he made on day 2?

It's a misunderstanding to say that the events of the 6 days of Genesis, where God is speaking each day, are not acts of creation.

To light the deep, which is earth at the time. Waters and land not separated yet
Light is not the earth.
Yes the heavens and earth were created. The land separated etc. It specifies after that which day it was. The first day. No reason for your confusion at all.

No. God doesn't speak until verse 3. Every creation day begins with God speaking. That's the indication of God's creative acts. On day 1, God creates light.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Nothing actually happens in verse 1.
 
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truthpls

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You seem to have switched to another topic. You said:

"No. The context is that creation predates history."

And I'm simply pointing out that the context is with Moses, and Moses wrote Genesis down. So no, the context does not predate history anymore than the Hebrew language does. And that's what the Bible is written in.
God gave it to him. So we know it is copesthetic. Cool. Concise. Correct. Calculated.
Yup. And that's God's description of creation of the earth. That's what day 2 is all about.
By day two earth's waters and land were already separated and He had created light. Let me put it another way, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
Light is not the earth.
Light lights the earth. Not like space needed a lot of light.
No. God doesn't speak until verse 3. Every creation day begins with God speaking. That's the indication of God's creative acts.
But before then He spoke to us saying the things that were already done on day one.
 
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