Early Church Fathers and Reformers Misogynistic Quotes

Chris V++

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If church tradition is based on the oral teachings, practices, beliefs, and writings of the early church fathers, how do we know which beliefs and writings of the fathers were reliable enough on which to base these traditions. How do we know what to trust as reliable? Or are the below pasted writings reliable too?

source: Misogynistic Quotations from Church Fathers and Reformers | Marg Mowczko

ORIGEN

Theologian and Greek Father, 2nd-3rd centuries

“Men should not sit and listen to a woman . . . even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little consequence, since it came from the mouth of a woman.”
Fragments on 1 Corinthians

TERTULLIAN
The Father of Latin Christianity, 155-245

”And do you not know that you are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert—that is, death—even the Son of God had to die. And do you think about adorning yourself over and above your tunics of skins?”
De Cultu Feminarium (On the Apparel of Women), Chapter 1 (Read it here.)

CHRYSOSTOM
Archbishop of Constantinople and Doctor of the Church, 4th century

“. . . the [female] sex is weak and fickle . . .”
Homily 9 on First Timothy (1 Timothy 2:11-12) (Read it here.)

“God maintained the order of each sex by dividing the business of life into two parts, and assigned the more necessary and beneficial aspects to the man and the less important, inferior matter to the woman.”
The Kind of Women who ought to be taken as Wives (Read a longer quotation from this treatise here.)

AUGUSTINE
Bishop of Hippo, Doctor of the Church and Latin Father, 354-430

Augustine-C6th-fresco_Lateran-Rome.jpg


“I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?”
De Genesi ad literam (The Literal Meaning of Genesis) 9.5.9 (Read it here.) (More about Eve’s role and procreation here.)

“. . . woman was given to man, woman who was of small intelligence and who perhaps still lives more in accordance with the promptings of the inferior flesh than by superior reason. Is this why the apostle Paul does not attribute the image of God to her?”
De Genesi ad literam Book 11.42 (More about the passage in Paul’s letters which Augustine refers to, here.)

“. . . the woman together with her own husband is the image of God, so that that whole substance may be one image; but when she is referred separately to her quality of help-meet, which regards the woman herself alone, then she is not the image of God; but as regards the man alone, he is the image of God as fully and completely as when the woman too is joined with him in one.”
On the Trinity, 12.7.10 (Read it here.)

“Watch out that she does not twist and turn you for the worse. What difference does it make whether it is in a wife or in a mother, provided we nonetheless avoid Eve in any woman?
Letter to Laetus (Letter 243.10) (Read it here. A discussion on the letter is on page 164 here.)
A different translation of the second sentence is: “What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman.”

THOMAS AQUINAS
Doctor of the church, 13th century

“But woman is naturally of less strength and dignity than man . . .”
Summa Theologica, Volume 1, Question 92, Article 1, Objection 2. (Read it here.)

“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.”
Summa Theologica, Vol. I, Q. 92, Art. 1, Reply to Objection 1. (Read it here.)

MARTIN LUTHER
German priest, theologian and Protestant Reformer, 16th century

“For woman seems to be a creature somewhat different from man, in that she has dissimilar members, a varied form and a mind weaker than man. Although Eve was a most excellent and beautiful creature, like unto Adam in reference to the image of God, that is with respect to righteousness, wisdom and salvation, yet she was a woman. For as the sun is more glorious than the moon, though the moon is a most glorious body, so woman, though she was a most beautiful work of God, yet she did not equal the glory of the male creature.”
Commentary on Genesis, Chapter 2, Part V, 27b. (Read it here.)

JOHN CALVIN
French theologian, pastor and Protestant Reformer, 1509-1564

On the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to women rather than to men: “I consider this was done by way of reproach, because they [the men] had been so tardy and sluggish to believe. And indeed, they deserve not only to have women for their teachers, but even oxen and asses. . . . Yet it pleased the Lord, by means of those weak and contemptible vessels, to give display of his power.”
Commentary on the Gospel of John (John 20) (Read it here.)

“On this account, all women are born that they may acknowledge themselves as inferior in consequence to the superiority of the male sex.”
Commentary on 1 Corinthians (1 Corinthians 11) (Read it here.)

JOHN KNOX
Scottish clergyman and Protestant Reformer, 16th century

“Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man . . .”

“Nature I say, paints [women] further to be weak, frail, impatient, feeble and foolish: and experience has declared them to be inconstant, variable, cruel and lacking the spirit of counsel and regiment [or, leadership].”
The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women. (Read it here.)
 

Daniel C

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If church tradition is based on the oral teachings, practices, beliefs, and writings of the early church fathers, how do we know which beliefs and writings of the fathers were reliable enough on which to base these traditions. How do we know what to trust as reliable? Or are the below pasted writings reliable too?. . . .



I agree. You are probably a man better suited in this crowd!




Let us misogynists follow the Christian forebearers.
 
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EzekielsWheels

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How do we know what was accepted to be put in the New Testament was reliable? That was also done by council if I recall correctly. A lot of these traditions I believe were verified by councils. We can't take every single stray remark any one father says and say that it is said in the Spirit. There must be judgment and discretion used.

On a separate note, I'm not baptized Orthodox but I believe some teachings are considered guidelines and some are rules but I will be interested to hear what others have to say.

Also admittedly there are some teachings I have difficulty accepting but I try and defer to my elders. That doesn't mean I should blankly accept all things but I should also admit when I am ignorant in a matter and be willing to wait to learn more before making a judgment.
 
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EzekielsWheels

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Paul says women are the weaker vessels but they are also equal with men. From my understanding women reap because of the sin of Eve certain consequences such that they will be desirous of men and subservient to them. That doesn't mean you command a woman to go into the kitchen and make you a sandwich, you should love a woman as you love yourself, respect her and honor her, but there is an order in the home and the man is the head of the household.

The Lord established a patriarchy of elders in Israel. So too I as a younger man must be subservient to and respect elder men, whatever my feelings may be because that is a command of the Lord.

Same thing with honoring your parents.

Same thing with honoring your employer/those in authority.

These are commands and moreover laws of God. We all must stay in our respective authorities or we will reap consequences.
 
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Chris V++

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I agree. You are probably are a man better suited in this crowd!

Oh Am I? This thread is about reliability of human tradition and not about misogyny.
Let us misogynists follow the Christian forebearers.
So would you follow your Christian European protestant forebearers into slaughtering Catholics during the reformation, or would you join the Roman crusaders in sacking Orthodox constantinople?
Or do you just despise women?
 
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All4Christ

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I’ll need to write more later to address the question, but I want to point out that the majority of the ones you quoted are not Orthodox or not saints. The only ones that are saints in the Orthodox Church are St John Chrysostom and St Augustine - and we have some other theological teachings (like original sin) that we don’t hold to that are taught by St Augustine. He is a saint due to his piety, not his theology. Tertullian and Origen are not saints; the rest are after the split between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
 
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All4Christ

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and St John Chrysostom has said a lot of good about women. Dr David Ford has written a book on it.

what is the point of this thread?
Which book? I’d love to read it. Dr Ford wrote a lot of good books.
 
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Chris V++

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what is the point of this thread?

The point is why should we trust the writings of early church fathers and tradition as much as scripture when the writings of the fathers are not infallible? For example, tradition given to us by the Fathers tells us we are supposed to venerate to and pray to saints and ask for intercession. How do we know they are correct if they say things like 'I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation.'

If there is no salvation outside the Orthodox church, or the Catholic church, or whatever church, and being inside that church requires conforming and adopting beliefs handed down from tradition that aren't clearly defined in scripture and often at least appear (for the sake argument) to contradict scripture, how do we know that those necessary traditions are reliable when the fathers themselves aren't necessarily reliable.

(the point of this thread isn't to bash church fathers)
 
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ArmyMatt

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The point is why should we trust the writings of early church fathers and tradition as much as scripture when the writings of the fathers are not infallible? For example, tradition given to us by the Fathers tells us we are supposed to venerate to and pray to saints and ask for intercession. How do we know they are correct if they say things like 'I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation.'

If there is no salvation outside the Orthodox church, or the Catholic church, or whatever church, and being inside that church requires conforming and adopting beliefs handed down from tradition that aren't clearly defined in scripture and often at least appear (for the sake argument) to contradict scripture, how do we know that those necessary traditions are reliable when the fathers themselves aren't necessarily reliable.

(the point of this thread isn't to bash church fathers)

except you're not criticizing the Fathers' understanding. only two of your references are Orthodox, and of those two, one retracted a lot of what he wrote. there was also no context to any translation.

sorry, but this looks like a hatchet piece.
 
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All4Christ

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The point is why should we trust the writings of early church fathers and tradition as much as scripture when the writings of the fathers are not infallible? For example, tradition given to us by the Fathers tells us we are supposed to venerate to and pray to saints and ask for intercession. How do we know they are correct if they say things like 'I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation.'

If there is no salvation outside the Orthodox church, or the Catholic church, or whatever church, and being inside that church requires conforming and adopting beliefs handed down from tradition that aren't clearly defined in scripture and often at least appear (for the sake argument) to contradict scripture, how do we know that those necessary traditions are reliable when the fathers themselves aren't necessarily reliable.

(the point of this thread isn't to bash church fathers)
We don’t consider the church fathers to be infallible. It’s the consensus of the Church over time. None of the bishops or leaders are infallible. However, when in consensus, we consider it to be preserving the Orthodox faith. Consensus doesn’t mean just consensus of the people at the time, but throughout the history of the Church. It’s the preservation of the faith, not development. The ecumenical councils are not only due to the consensus among bishops, but also the reception of the people and the unity with the Orthodox teachings throughout the existence of the Church.
 
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If the question is about the reliability of the ECFs - we don't consider anyone infallible. Even Saints can be mistaken on various points. It is in the consensus of the Church Father's that we find truth that can be trusted. It's potentially very misleading to draw a conclusion based on one or a few. At times it's even dangerous to hear the many - for a time Arianism and iconoclasm held a majority. We have the advantage of being able to look back at outcomes and history.

If the question is about the Church's view of women - I would discount the source I'm guessing you found this info compiled on? As A4C mentioned, these are mostly not Church Fathers. And the Church actually raised women up to a more dignified footing than society, history, and religion in general has allowed - we have women who are an"Apostle to the Apostles" and first evangelists/witnesses to the Resurrection, and so on.


ETA was typing while other answers were being given. :)
 
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The title "Mother/Bearer of God" does not mean that the Virgin Mary gave birth to God as His beginning. He is eternal. She is a creature. But it does emphasize the fact that Jesus IS God, and to fail to acknowledge Mary as being His mother denies His divinity in the human flesh that grew within her womb.

This was an early controversy in the Church and was all worked out. "Theotokos" means mother/bearer of God.
 
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The title "Mother/Bearer of God" does not mean that the Virgin Mary gave birth to God as His beginning. He is eternal. She is a creature. But it does emphasize the fact that Jesus IS God, and to fail to acknowledge Mary as being His mother denies His divinity in the human flesh that grew within her womb.

This was an early controversy in the Church and was all worked out. "Theotokos" means mother/bearer of God.
She is mother of His human part, not of His deity part.

Therefore the title is quite strange and very controversial, for many even blasphemious.
 
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