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Featured early Christian versus modern Christian

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Jesusthekingofking, Jan 13, 2021 at 8:34 AM.

  1. Jesusthekingofking

    Jesusthekingofking Member

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    Jesus declared, “How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” He then states that it is easier for a camel to go through “the eye of a needle” than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.

    How many Christian today take this verse literally? I can bet at the early church they are strong - poor, persecuted and died for the faith..
     
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  2. Heavenhome

    Heavenhome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It makes you wonder what Bible the majority of TV Evangelists use, not to mention the mega churches.;)
     
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  3. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ citizen of the Kingdom Supporter

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    Jesus has just finished an illustration about welcoming children into His Kingdom. “What do I still lack?” asked a rich young ruler. The eye of the needle was a vary narrow gate. Here we have following the narrow way that leads to life, not the broad way that leads to death. Jesus answered the question Himself that it’s impossible! Matthew 19:26 “If you want to be perfect…” abide in Him.

    Iow, do not be devoted to anything other than Himself, not riches, not any type of anything but Christ Himself. For if you do you will love that and not God Matthew 6:24 love following the broad way.

    Are your thoughts focused on Christ or something/anything else? Do you give without expecting return? If not then your wealth is just a stumbling block.
     
  4. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Why should they take them literally when God does not even take them literally, meaning before those words were uttered their were probably hundreds or more believers that were wealthy by the standards of their day. People like Abraham, Job, Joseph, the various kings of Israel and large land owners in Israel etc.

    Just about anything in life can be a snare and a distraction which is what the verse is about, but God calls believers from all kinds of backgrounds to do his will. And technically it is already a miracle for any of us to be saved, so what is another level of complication?


    Judging by the title of the thread I thought you were going to be talking about something like the Sacraments like Baptism and Holy communion where the ancient Christians were much more literal than modern folks.


    The only real difference between then and now as far as the OP goes are Prosperity preachers. Since ancient times people have "preached the Gospel for gain", but the idea that getting rich because some Bible verses imply it and this is part of the Gospel as much as salvation from sin is something that is completely new and yes it is very obscene and an abuse of Scripture. Technically, I guess we can liken this to a sign of the last days, as far as corruption goes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 9:13 AM
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  5. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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  6. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    I do not take this literal.....Nor do i believe that anyone, born of God, would care about the amount of money they or another has, because they have everything and want for nothing.

    If another has more of anything than you so.......and you have Jesus........we have a problem.
     
  7. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Does not scripture say the the man with less means has more honour?
     
  8. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Does not the Scripture say:

    "12 The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
    13 And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:"

    Do you equate little money with less means and a lot of money with a lot of means? What would this say about the value or importance you place on money?
     
  9. Rene Loup

    Rene Loup Saved Wolf Among Sheep

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    An annual salary of US$34,000, after taxes, makes the earner part of the top 1% of the entire world.[1][2][3]

    My advice is learn contentment, especially with modest living. Live within your means and NEVER worry about keeping up with the Jones's. Focus on serving God instead of Mammon.[8] It is also highly recommended (though not required)[4] to tithe and give to God-pleasing charities.[4][9] Studies have shown benefits of giving such as more happiness, better health, more social connections, gratitude, and may inspire others to give as well.[5][6]

    My personal philosophy regarding money is this: Do NOT worry about making MORE money, but instead be WISE in managing money. The Bible itself, especially the Book of Proverbs, is filled with financial advice. The Jewish diaspora throughout history took these to heart. While they were NOT the financial juggernauts they were (and still are) stereotyped to be, Old Testament financial advice did at least give them an edge.[10][11]

    Now, given the country listed in your profile, how willing are you to sell ALL of your possessions, give the money to the poor, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ in spreading the Good News, like the rest of the Bible passages suggested doing?[7]

    1. “Attention, Protestors: You're Probably Part of the 1%.” Yahoo! News, Yahoo!, news.yahoo.com/attention-protestors-youre-probably-part-1-153806044.html.
    2. NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The United States holds a disproportionate amount of the world's rich people. “Half the World's Richest 1% Live in the United States.” CNNMoney, Cable News Network, money.cnn.com/2012/01/04/news/economy/world_richest/index.htm.
    3. Kenny, Charles. “We're All the 1 Percent.” Foreign Policy, Foreign Policy, 27 Feb. 2012, foreignpolicy.com/2012/02/27/were-all-the-1-percent/.
    4. 2 Cor. 9:6-15
    5. About the Authors Jill Suttie Jill Suttie, et al. “5 Ways Giving Is Good for You.” Greater Good, greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/5_ways_giving_is_good_for_you.
    6. Walsh, Colleen. “Money Spent on Others Can Buy Happiness.” Harvard Gazette, Harvard Gazette, 17 Apr. 2008, news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2008/04/money-spent-on-others-can-buy-happiness/.
    7. Luke 18:18-30, Mark 10:17-31, Matt. 19:16-30
    8. Luke 16:1-15, Matt. 6:19-24
    9. Matt. 25:31-46
    10. Masci, David. “How Income Varies among U.S. Religious Groups.” Pew Research Center, Pew Research Center, 30 May 2020, www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/.
    11. “Debunking the Myth of ‘Elite Jews’ in Medieval Europe.” UW Stroum Center for Jewish Studies, 25 June 2019, jewishstudies.washington.edu/global-judaism/debunking-myth-jewish-elites-bankers-europe-history/.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 10:33 AM
  10. HisCrossMyPeace

    HisCrossMyPeace Member

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    Well, every true Christian with some matureness I have met in Scandinavia + on (business) travels have taken this verse - as the other verses in our Bible - litterally. It is hard for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God, in fact as inpossible as for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. However, it’s equal impossible for a poor man to enter into the Kingdom of God! It’s neighter a man’s wealth nor his poorness that make this possible - it’s the Lord!

    Every text - Biblicals included - have a context, and ignoring this often gives the most "interesting" conclutions. The verse refered to is Mark 10,25 and one single sentence before - Mark 10,24B - Jesus says (my italic, of course): Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God"! Jesus had just spoken to a man (Matthew states a young man 19,22) who ran to Him, kneeled for Him and asked: “Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” Jesus tells him: “Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.” Same Law prescribed for him as everyone else, no more and no less. However this man tells (my italic again): “Master, all these have I observed from my youth.” A really respectable man, honouring God and His commands, absolutely no man disrespecting everything and everyone. Jesus then put this self-statement to a test: “One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.” He telles because that was a requirement for his disiples? Not at all, John - the disiple Jesus loved in a special way - also was a rich man and from a familiy having straight acces to the high priest’s yard (as we know used the night before Good Friday) - and he was never told this. Jesus want to show this man who have “observed [all these] from my youth” that he hasn’t and hasn't understand God's commands at all! Instead of kneeling in fromt of Jesus and ask for help “went away grieved: for he had great possessions.” - and those possessions was more important to him than Jesus! To John, to Phoebe, and to other persons it was straight opposite.

    Straigt after Mark 10,25 the disiples first ask “who then can be saved” and Jesus tells them “With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.”Salvation is impossible for man - rich and poor, Jew or Gentile, strong, or week, man or woman, sick or healty - but EVERTYTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE for God. Thus salvation is open for everyone - but they all first need to find the well of salvation - Jesus at Calvary - and kneel there!

    The early church - those truly belonged to this church - were strong - poor, persecuted and died for the faith. The church of 2021 is basically equal! Yes, the early chuch became more tested about this than the church of 2021 when talking about Europe and (still even more) US, In His mercy God have given these local churches less harsh conditions than the churckes Paul, Peter and John adress their letters to, but basically: The TRUE church grow when God sends chilly storm from NE and harsh conditions, but fell asleep when He sends chilly breeze from south and 25 degrees Celcius! Why: Deuteronomy 33,25B. (And here one basically - seen from man - have the explaination why the true Chuch grew in Russia and Eastern Europe 1945-1990, but fell asleep in Western Europe and the US! Today we can observe exactly the same in other parts of the World!)

    The better conditones mankind is given from God, the more mankind forgets His creator and get the idea that HE can do. Anyone beeing/having been parents knows that the possible total collapse is never as close as when an irritated toddler insist that that he/she manage to handle (this part of) his/her life completly alone, and is going to do exactly that.
     
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  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Seriously? All those people think that it's saying that a beast used by desert peoples will have a hard time fitting through the opening in a sewing needle? What sort of insight would that be??
     
  12. HisCrossMyPeace

    HisCrossMyPeace Member

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    Seriously! Please read - R E A D - my post and then comment what I actually wrote there, not what you imagine I wrote based upon first two lines of reading. Behavior like that never give any fruitful discussion!

    "Hvor utgangspunktet er galest, blir tidt resultatet originalest" ( When the assumption/logical start point is most wrong, the result often will be the most original."): Henrik Ibsen, Peer Gynt
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Hmmm. You DID write this, didn't you?
    In order to take "camel pass through the eye of the needle" LITERALLY, a person would have to think it's telling us about a large beast of burden and a sewing needle. No one should think that is what the verse is saying, although I realize that many people do make that mistake.
     
  14. Rene Loup

    Rene Loup Saved Wolf Among Sheep

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    Mike Lindell,[1] the CEO of My Pillow Inc,[2] did glorify God using his financial success. One example is helping to fund the Christian anti-abortion film, Unplanned, in exchange for a cameo in the film.[3]

    I don't know about the rest of you, but if I was a film director being given this offer, in a heartbeat I would say, "SURE! This is MORE than a fair trade!"

    Having wealth itself is NOT a sin. How that wealth is USED, however, reveals true character because it is a form of power. Power both corrupts and reveals, as evidenced by the concept of 'Affluenza.'[4][5][6]

    1. Record, ByThe Wealth, et al. “The Wealth Record.” Mike Lindell Net Worth 2021, Age, Height, Weight, Wife, Kids, Biography, Wiki | The Wealth Record, 7 Jan. 2021, www.thewealthrecord.com/celebs-bio-wiki-salary-earnings-2019-2020-2021-2022-2023-2024-2025/entrepreneur/mike-lindell-net-worth/.
    2. “My Pillow, Inc. Company Profile: Chaska, MN: Competitors, Financials & Contacts - Dun & Bradstreet.” Company Profile | Chaska, MN | Competitors, Financials & Contacts - Dun & Bradstreet, www.dnb.com/business-directory/company-profiles.my_pillow_inc.faa7690540f9672e92fc8e26c5c3c859.html.
    3. Bond, Paul. “My Pillow Founder Michael Lindell Jumps Into Film Financing.” The Hollywood Reporter, 22 Nov. 2018, www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/my-pillow-founder-michael-lindell-jumps-film-financing-1163209.
    4. “Yes, Power Corrupts, But Power Also Reveals.” Psychology Today, Sussex Publishers, 21 Apr. 2013, www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-take/201304/yes-power-corrupts-power-also-reveals.
    5. Hayes, Adam. “Affluenza Definition.” Investopedia, Investopedia, 12 Sept. 2020, www.investopedia.com/terms/a/affluenza.asp.
    6. Luke 12:13-21, 16:1-15, Matt. 6:19-24, 1 Tim. 6:1-10
     
  15. HisCrossMyPeace

    HisCrossMyPeace Member

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    No,strawman eighter by intention or by lack of reading: I wrote that I - like any true Christian I know take this verse litterally AND that the verse has a context.

    Exaclty why shouldn’t they (remember the context!)? Exactly why is this a "mistake"? Because that’s the most suitable solution for the Anglican church’s doctrines?

    I consider this discussion finalized until the three questions above all are clearly anserved, spesifically by Albion.
     
  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Maybe before you explode, I should just advise you to check the meaning of the word literally in a dictionary.

    :)
     
  17. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    Do people need to be reminded that in the New Testament Paul relied on wealthy people to accomplish his ministry? How could the Church operate without money to fund missionaries and help other Churches in need, such as when Paul collected money for the Church in Jerusalem?

    Lydia was a seller of Purple who invited Paul to stay in her house. Cornelius was a Roman Centurion with a house of his own. I have no doubt there are other specific figures that either I can't remember or that history has left untold.

    This fetishization of the poor in themselves, as if simply being poor makes one righteous, is nonsense.
     
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  18. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    NO...

    Where on earth did you get that from?
     
  19. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Please explain this question. What does "less means" and "more honour" equate to, in your opinion?

    And also why was this question asked after I stated that I do not take the verse literally?
     
  20. Taodeching

    Taodeching Member

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    I heard it was a gate that was nicked name "eye of the needle" because of it's narrowness
     
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