Early Christian Communism

Roman1

Active Member
Aug 14, 2017
68
16
37
Oslo
Visit site
✟11,501.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So I recently published a book on Communism in the early Christian Communities, laying out the evidence for it and for it's Scope and durability. Here is an interview about it on youtube, and on the radio program's site.

To be Clear (there's been a lot of confusion on this in the past, and unfortunately a lot of People got upset without listening to the interview and Reading the book) when I use the term "communism" I am using it in the strickly anthropological sense, NOT the political sense. That's why I don't use softer terms (communalism, communitarianism, socialism or something like that), because those terms have different meanings, but communism has a specific technical definition in some branches of sociology and anthropology (I lay it out in detail in the book and somewhat also in the interview).

The basical idea is that communism is not a political system, or a system of property but rather a moral ground for social relationships; as opposed to other grounds like heirarchy, Exchange, and so on. The moral ground of communism for social relationships basically is "from each according to his ability to each according to his need": As would apply to relationships ranging from a hunter gatherer tribes to friends taking a trip together, to a marraige to a Cooperative business and so on.

In the book I start With Acts 2:42-47; 4:32-37 and compare it with supporting evidence in the first and second Century. Such as the Pauline letters setting boundaries and regulations on the "communism", the re-enforcement of it in the Didache, Epistle of Barnabas. You also have the later second Century Works like the apologias of Justin Martyr and Tertullian and the writings of the Roman poet Lucian that give evidence that the practice continued well into the second Century. I also compare the practice to the Qumran community (the Essenes), and the Hellenistic concepts of communism and the poor, as well how the practices came directly from Jesus's teachings and the belief in the eschaton and Kingdom of God.

Listen to the interview and/or read the book and tell me what you think :).
 

alex2165

Newbie
Jan 2, 2014
382
83
✟11,292.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi Roman1.

To look at this issue in general, I would say that no one actually have clear or definite point of view unless someone experienced all sides of the issue in all its variety.

From the point of view of propaganda and ideology, majority people of the world received only one sided and only one already censored and edited point of view and information, which today called as “news.”

Because of it, our own view is shaped according what we are hear and see on the state’s sponsored propaganda channels and any alternative or contradicting information or point of view of course is not welcome and is not allowed to be translated, and I mean under such conditions all countries of the world without any exceptions.

I traveled a lot, and still do, and my knowledge and understanding of the world is completely different than of majority of people who are never been anywhere, or of those who travel only limited to booked hotels, shopping malls, tourist buses, and predetermined route of travel.

But back to your issue, it reminded me of one good Biblical scholar Zodhiates, who was the editor of KSB Bible. In the footnotes of the page of the NT, he wrote a short comment concerning parables of Jesus that mentioned a master and his slaves to whom he gave some money and expected some profit in return. He in his comments also mentioned one of his books named, if I remember it right, as: “Did Jesus teaches capitalism?’

I was quite intrigue with this book, and because my local library does not have it, I ordered from another library and finally got it. The book is very thin, may be about 100 pages, and contains his comments on these parables of Jesus about master, his slaves, and profit.

In two places of his book he glorified capitalist system over communist system and I noticed that his point of view on this issue was primarily based on the very general point of view usually generously supplied by so called “main stream media.” I quickly realized that he has never been in the countries with communist or socialist government, and all his perception of those societies solely based on what he heard and seen from major propaganda channels, and nothing else.

Actually he truly believed, according to the parables of Jesus, that Jesus preaching and glorifying capitalism. The funny thing is, that word “Capitalism” is a very modern word and does not existed in Jesus times, and so are the capitalist’s societies. The word “Capitalism” was born during industrial revolution in the 18th century A.C., about 200 years ago. This word signifies accumulation of the capital on large scale as it never had been done before, due to modern advance in machinery and technologies for large production of quantities of consumer goods and military equipment.

The word “Capitalism” first appears in works of Karl Marx, German philosopher, books of whom describe capitalism in all its forms. His books revealed to minute details how capitalism was born, operating, and make its profits.

If I remember right, Spiros Zodhiates died somewhere in mid-60s, and so I could not in any way respond to him (may be later!) concerning his book and his point of view on the issue.

But I think he completely overlooked another side of the issue and many other statements of Jesus Christ where He taught people to drop all material things, give it to the poor, and follow Him, which immediately reminds and leads to communist-socialist ideology which propagate the faith in their believes, in their system, in their way of life, in their professionalism, in their social structure, and not in material wealth, which is completely opposite of capitalism.

So the question is, did Jesus teach capitalism, communism-socialism, or none of that? Or may He did teach that all ideologies of the world are false, and only one that stands out of them all is our spiritual ideals and faith and dedication to the Statutes and Commandments of our Lord, our allegiance to only one Heavenly society, and to One and Only GOD, and nothing else besides these.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Roman1
Upvote 0

Roman1

Active Member
Aug 14, 2017
68
16
37
Oslo
Visit site
✟11,501.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're right that Capitlaism as a concept and as a system is new; as are ideologies of market liberalism and so forth. Also modern socialism basically exists as an ideology as a reaction to capitalism.

So none of those ideologies and concepts can be put on Jesus or the early Church. I get just as annoyed with people who say "Jesus was a Socialist" with those who say "Jesus was a Capitalist". Both those terms don't apply.

When I use the term "communism"
However, I'm using it in the anthropological sense; I.e. Using the framework that anthropologists use to study non-state societies. I think that framework actually makes sense of what the early Christians did economically (as well as the Essenes to be honest) given that it's devoid of legal connotations.

A lot of people look at those verses (acts 2:42–47 ; 4:32–37) and say it's either political style socialism/communism ... or just Charity: I'm saying both of those are inappropriate; there is just to much evidence against both of those frameworks for them to work—which is why I think the anthropological framework fits the evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,599
Hudson
✟281,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
"from each according to his ability to each according to his need"

In order for this principle to work, there needs to be a strong motivation those with ability to freely help those with need. The generosity that the Bible is motivated by our love for God and our love for our neighbor and has nothing to do with being generous with other people's money. So you are quite right that his needs to be distinct from the government because when the government tries to enforce that principle, it just mucks up everything. The government enforcing that principle removes the motivation for everyone to excel when excelling just means that the government will take more away from you and increases the motivation for people to become dependent on the government. Capitalism creates incentives for people to excel, which increase the quality of life for everyone, and while it is by no means perfect, the poor people in our country tend to be better off than the poor people in communist countries. While I agree that the type of community in Acts 2 is more ideal than capitalism, if it is not motivated by a strong love of God and our neighbor, then capitalism is superior.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Noxot
Upvote 0

Roman1

Active Member
Aug 14, 2017
68
16
37
Oslo
Visit site
✟11,501.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The motivation in pre-state societies (or non state societies) have always been that people need each other to survive and thrive, and thus will generally work according to moral principles that are conducive to that (which are culturally enforced), that's why communism (along with aspects of heirarchy and some exchange) has been the main organizing principle for pre-state societies, and even villages in the middle ages that were not pre-state but largely functioned outside of state power.

The government is a different issue, it can create incentives and create institutions that support or detract from different principles. Largely, the State creates Capitalism, so historically that's been the case.

But I agree, my position (along with David bently Hart) is that Christianity, taken seriously, would lead to more "communism" in society, and that secularism basically goes along with Capitalism.

By the way, did you listen to the interview? What did you think of my case?
 
Upvote 0

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
using that word "communism" is going to automatically make people disgusted if they at all know of what happened in soviet russia and communist china. that is in part due to jordan peterson talking about it so much. of course trying to sway some communist by that word, if the ideal is good, can possibly help those people. I don't know why people won't just call it "christian charity" which is an ideal that was never fully born into our world, only glimpses of it are seen.

I am very weary of anyone who would dare use that cursed word "communism" because there are too many people that ignore the facts of history and don't understand that christian charity is done in the freedom of the spirit and it turns ugly once you force people into it. and look at the world, people tend to exist in whatever they happened to be born into, it is either a sign that they don't even live in their spirits enough or that the system we now have is good enough to not desire massive changes.

capitalism itself could be greatly improved and would be if it was spirit filled. taking away the powers that big corporations have over the government would make the market freer. a free market is not really something the world has seen, they only know the capitalism that is based on government control. it's called "crony capitalism".

capitalism is dangerous because we can't seem to stop producing things we no longer need, i.e. people keep buying new phones rather than someone designing a phone that last 100+ years. then third world countries burn all the old computers up to forage a bit of metal thus creating more pollution and also poisoning themselves if they don't protect themselves from the fumes and other toxic parts.

some say that the romans had a kind of socialist system that was at war with christian charity.

I do agree that if Christianity was taken seriously that some form of christian community would be much more popular. the state first persecuted Christians and then when satan could not win that way the state offered the church power and they fell for it. far too many people have faith in their government.

in general trying to base life on mere economics is not good. it is certainly an important part of our lives as creatures but life is supposed to be so much more than survival. in the modern world I feel so separated from everyone else but at least they are not starving. I do wish that the world was deeply christian but human sins have prevented it and this is what we have, which is in some ways better than it has ever been.

I will have to listen to the radio program.
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
...
Listen to the interview and/or read the book and tell me what you think :).

Many think Christianity is a form of communism, as the political system. I think it is wrong, because no one was forced in early Christian community to give others. People wanted freely do work and give others so that no one would be in need. In communism, or other socialistic systems, people are forced to give things for the leaders who then share some of it with poor and that is the great difference between communism and Christianity, other is based on freedom and love, other is based on force and creed.

I understand that you had different idea about communism, but I just wanted to say this because many seem to think the communism (socialistic and globalist ideology) is like Christianity, which I think is really wrong idea.
 
Upvote 0

Roman1

Active Member
Aug 14, 2017
68
16
37
Oslo
Visit site
✟11,501.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
using that word "communism" is going to automatically make people disgusted if they at all know of what happened in soviet russia and communist china. that is in part due to jordan peterson talking about it so much. of course trying to sway some communist by that word, if the ideal is good, can possibly help those people. I don't know why people won't just call it "christian charity" which is an ideal that was never fully born into our world, only glimpses of it are seen.

I am very weary of anyone who would dare use that cursed word "communism" because there are too many people that ignore the facts of history and don't understand that christian charity is done in the freedom of the spirit and it turns ugly once you force people into it. and look at the world, people tend to exist in whatever they happened to be born into, it is either a sign that they don't even live in their spirits enough or that the system we now have is good enough to not desire massive changes.

The problem is the term "communism" as it's used, is not the classical meaning of the Word (kind of like how Americans use the term "Liberal" in a different way from Europe), and it actually IS the correct Word in anthropology for what I'm talking about.

The reason it's not "christian charity" because "charity" has the connotation of a completely voluntary (in the sense that one is free to not do it) and philanthropic one way act ... that's NOT what the early Christians were doing primarily. Calling it Charity would be like calling hunter gatherer tribe meat distribution charity ... or village "communism" charity, or household "communism" charity; it just doesn't work.

capitalism itself could be greatly improved and would be if it was spirit filled. taking away the powers that big corporations have over the government would make the market freer. a free market is not really something the world has seen, they only know the capitalism that is based on government control. it's called "crony capitalism".

capitalism is dangerous because we can't seem to stop producing things we no longer need, i.e. people keep buying new phones rather than someone designing a phone that last 100+ years. then third world countries burn all the old computers up to forage a bit of metal thus creating more pollution and also poisoning themselves if they don't protect themselves from the fumes and other toxic parts.

I would argue that the "free market" is a meaningless term, as everyone has different definitions of what is and is not free. Also "markets" or market systems, are really state creations, States create currency through taxation, they create stable and un-socially contingent property rights, and they create Courts and market instittuions like Corporations and the such. I would argue that "crony capitalism" just IS capitalism.

I agree With Your second paragraph, it's called externalities and they are fundamental to Capitalism, just libertarians and market fundamentalists just ignore them. But I would aruge it's not human nature, it's enforced, billions and billions of dollars are put into making People consume more.

some say that the romans had a kind of socialist system that was at war with christian charity.

The Romans certainly did NOT have a socialist system, nor did it have a Capitalist system, Capitalism is a early modern invention, and socialism is a reaction to it. It had some markets, some aspects of village communism, but mostly large systems of Patronage and heirarchical Control.

I do agree that if Christianity was taken seriously that some form of christian community would be much more popular. the state first persecuted Christians and then when satan could not win that way the state offered the church power and they fell for it. far too many people have faith in their government.

in general trying to base life on mere economics is not good. it is certainly an important part of our lives as creatures but life is supposed to be so much more than survival. in the modern world I feel so separated from everyone else but at least they are not starving. I do wish that the world was deeply christian but human sins have prevented it and this is what we have, which is in some ways better than it has ever been.

I will have to listen to the radio program.

I completely agree, my general view is that when Christianity becomes the dominant religion politically, it's good for society, but bad for Christianity ... that was true for the Roman Empire.

Part of what I say in my book is that what the Christians did economically (and I can demonstrate this from the texts) was 100% linked to, and dependant on, their belief in Jesus and the Kingdom of God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Noxot
Upvote 0

Roman1

Active Member
Aug 14, 2017
68
16
37
Oslo
Visit site
✟11,501.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Many think Christianity is a form of communism, as the political system. I think it is wrong, because no one was forced in early Christian community to give others. People wanted freely do work and give others so that no one would be in need. In communism, or other socialistic systems, people are forced to give things for the leaders who then share some of it with poor and that is the great difference between communism and Christianity, other is based on freedom and love, other is based on force and creed.

I understand that you had different idea about communism, but I just wanted to say this because many seem to think the communism (socialistic and globalist ideology) is like Christianity, which I think is really wrong idea.

Right, although I would say that Christianity is more opposed to the spirit of Capitalism, it's principles, but 20th Century Leninism was and is a catastrophy of history and belongs in the dustbin of history.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The basical idea is that communism is not a political system, or a system of property but rather a moral ground for social relationships; as opposed to other grounds like heirarchy, Exchange, and so on. The moral ground of communism for social relationships basically is "from each according to his ability to each according to his need".

You'd have done better to go with "communalism," especially in view of your use of Marxist slogans and premises.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So I recently published a book on Communism in the early Christian Communities, laying out the evidence for it and for it's Scope and durability. Here is an interview about it on youtube, and on the radio program's site.

To be Clear (there's been a lot of confusion on this in the past, and unfortunately a lot of People got upset without listening to the interview and Reading the book) when I use the term "communism" I am using it in the strickly anthropological sense, NOT the political sense. That's why I don't use softer terms (communalism, communitarianism, socialism or something like that), because those terms have different meanings, but communism has a specific technical definition in some branches of sociology and anthropology (I lay it out in detail in the book and somewhat also in the interview).

The basical idea is that communism is not a political system, or a system of property but rather a moral ground for social relationships; as opposed to other grounds like heirarchy, Exchange, and so on. The moral ground of communism for social relationships basically is "from each according to his ability to each according to his need": As would apply to relationships ranging from a hunter gatherer tribes to friends taking a trip together, to a marraige to a Cooperative business and so on.

In the book I start With Acts 2:42-47; 4:32-37 and compare it with supporting evidence in the first and second Century. Such as the Pauline letters setting boundaries and regulations on the "communism", the re-enforcement of it in the Didache, Epistle of Barnabas. You also have the later second Century Works like the apologias of Justin Martyr and Tertullian and the writings of the Roman poet Lucian that give evidence that the practice continued well into the second Century. I also compare the practice to the Qumran community (the Essenes), and the Hellenistic concepts of communism and the poor, as well how the practices came directly from Jesus's teachings and the belief in the eschaton and Kingdom of God.

Listen to the interview and/or read the book and tell me what you think :).


Using the term "communism" is still not presenting what the early Christians followed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Using the term "communism" is still not presenting what the early Christians followed.

One can just as easily understand how the early Christians lived by comparing to what happened in Jamestown in the 1600's when the settlers first got there. The first year, the settlers agree to hold everything in common, so everyone got the same. That is what the principle of "communism" proposes, also "socialism", both are pretty much the same thing in that respect.

Many of the settlers starved that first year because some worked, others didn't. The reason is because if you know you're going to get the same as everyone else, there's no incentive to work harder. That socialist-communist concept of everyone receiving the same has nothing to do with politics. It's part of that philosophy. And it's also against God's Way in His Word...

2 Thess 3:10
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

KJV


The next year at Jamestown no one starved and there was abundance. They changed their policy that whatever you grew you got to keep, and whatever excess you had you could sell or barter. This is God's Way, not socialist-communism. And that also is how the early Christians were with each other. Their abundance they worked for they gave to the poorer brethren 'by choice'. Apostle Paul did not tell them what or how much to give, but only according to their own hearts. That is called doing alms, not redistribution of wealth by a corrupt government deciding how much you deserve to have, and stealing what you worked hard for, and giving it to someone who is too lazy to work.

Isa 65:21-22
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

KJV


2 Cor 8:11-14
11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
KJV

Socialist-Communist philosophy doesn't care if one is burdened with re-distribution of what they have and the receiver is not. Apostle Paul showed that was not his intention at all among the brethren.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums