During the writing of Hebrews, where was the censer being kept in the Tabernacle?

[Allan Lindsay C. Arce]

It has been a controversy comparing Hebrews 9:3-4 and Exodus 30:6.

Some say Hebrews 9:3-4 talks about a censer which is different from the altar. Some say that it is talking about the same altar as in Exodus 30:6 but describing it in relation to the Most Holy Place, and not in the spatial sense (as to where it is placed or located).

With this, can somene confirm where the censer is being kept in the tabernacle during the time of the writer of The Book of Hebrews?

 

[Phil W]

It has been a controversy comparing Hebrews 9:3-4 and Exodus 30:6.

Some say Hebrews 9:3-4 talks about a censer which is different from the altar. Some say that it is talking about the same altar as in Exodus 30:6 but describing it in relation to the Most Holy Place, and not in the spatial sense (as to where it is placed or located).

With this, can somene confirm where the censer is being kept in the tabernacle during the time of the writer of The Book of Hebrews?

For one thing, the Exodus account is about a tent and the Heb. account is about a temple.
They weren't duplicate floor plans

 

[Allan Lindsay C. Arce]

For one thing, the Exodus account is about a tent and the Heb. account is about a temple.
They weren't duplicate floor plans

Thanks for your input.

And so, at the temple plan during the time of the writer of The Book of Hebrews, do you have any concrete proof that will tell us if the golden censer is being kept inside the Most Holy Place? Or if there is such a custom during that time to keep the golden censer inside the Most Holy Place?

 

[JIMINZ]

It has been a controversy comparing Hebrews 9:3-4 and Exodus 30:6.

Some say Hebrews 9:3-4 talks about a censer which is different from the altar. Some say that it is talking about the same altar as in Exodus 30:6 but describing it in relation to the Most Holy Place, and not in the spatial sense (as to where it is placed or located).

With this, can somene confirm where the censer is being kept in the tabernacle during the time of the writer of The Book of Hebrews?

Exo. 30:1
And thou shalt make an altar to burn incense upon: of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood shalt thou make it.

Exo. 30:6
And thou shalt put it before the vail that is by the ark of the testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the testimony, where I will meet with thee.

The Censer is always kept in the Holy of Hollies, exactly as described in both Scriptures, there is only one difference between the two which might cause the slightest discrepancy between them.

This difference is, one is written in Hebrew, and the other in Greek.
But then again, the word itself in the English Dictionary says that the word (CENSER) is from the Latin.

The following are my findings on the words. (ALTAR and CENSER) and the positioning of both.

Hebrew Interlinear Bible.

מִ זְ בֵּ חַ
mzbch
altar

Hebrew from the Strong's Concordance
ALTAR:

H4196
מִזְבֵּחַ
mizbêach
miz-bay'-akh
From H2076; an altar: - altar.

H2076
זָבַח
zâbach
zaw-bakh'
A primitive root; to slaughter an animal (usually in sacrifice): - kill, offer, (do) sacrifice, slay.

Therefore the understanding in Hebrew of the word Altar is a place of Sacrifice. (From H-2076)

The word in the Hebrew Interlinear coincides with the one in the Strong's.

Therefore we are talking about the same Altar of Incense. (In Hebrew)

Exo. 30:1
And thou shalt make an altar to burn incense upon:

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Now lets deal with the verses in Heb. 9:3,4

Heb 9:3,4
3) And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4) Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

What we see in these two verses is, the (NOW Censer) is placed in exactly the same position as the (THEN Altar) thus identifying it as the same implement used in the Temple for the burning of Incense.

CENSER: Greek? Latin?
G2369
θυμιαστήριον
thumiastērion
thoo-mee-as-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of G2370; a place of fumigation, that is, the altar of incense (in the Temple): - censer.

G2370
θυμιάω
thumiaō
thoo-mee-ah'-o
From a derivative of G2380 (in the sense of smoking); to fumigate, that is, offer aromatic fumes: - burn incense.

G2380
θύω
thuō
thoo'-o
A primary verb; properly to rush (breathe hard, blow, smoke), that is, (by implication) to sacrifice (properly by fire, but generally); by extension to immolate (slaughter for any purpose): - kill, (do) sacrifice, slay.

Therefore we come to the Smoke of the Incense offered up as the Prayers of the Saints, as a Sacrifice unto God.

I for one have no problem in understanding and believing the Altar, and the Censer are both the same thing spoken of in both Old and New Testaments, they both also hold the exact same position in the Temples Holy of Hollies.

End of said Controversy

 

[Allan Lindsay C. Arce]

Then it may be less misleading to express Hebrews 9:3-4 as follows:
3. Behind the second curtain was a room called The Most Holy Place,
4. and serving for its purpose are the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aarn's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

Instead of just saying 'which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant'. Because simply expressing as such, creates a misleading idea that the altar is being described in the spatial sense in relation to The Most Holy Place. Making it seem to sound like, it is located inside The Most Holy Place.

 

[JIMINZ]

Then it may be less misleading to express Hebrews 9:3-4 as follows:
3. Behind the second curtain was a room called The Most Holy Place,
4. and serving for its purpose are the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aarn's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

Instead of just saying 'which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant'. Because simply expressing as such, creates a misleading idea the altar is being described in the spatial sense in relation to The Most Holy Place. Making it seem to sound like, it is located inside The Most Holy Place.

To tell you the truth, I did not find any problem reading or understanding what was written or the manner in which it was written, that is why I wrote it all out for you.

It's all there written out for you, go back and read both Exodus and Hebrews again, you'll see what I mean, plus the misunderstanding of the 2 words.

Sometimes we just get in our own way and can't see the forest standing all around us, because were tooooo close to it.

 

[Allan Lindsay C. Arce]

To tell you the truth, I did not find any problem reading or understanding what was written or the manner in which it was written, that is why I wrote it all out for you.

It's all there written out for you, go back and read both Exodus and Hebrews again, you'll see what I mean, plus the misunderstanding of the 2 words.

Sometimes we just get in our own way and can't see the forest standing all around us, because were tooooo close to it.

I understand your point. But try telling that to thousands of other Bible readers who have misinterpreted Hebrews 9:3-4. Try telling that to Bible critics who have used Hebrews 9:3-4 together with Exodus 30:6, to say that Gods Written Word is flawed due to the conflicting details specified in the said passages.

Which simply calls for the said passage to have a much clearer expression in the english language.

In other words, your response, though from a learned and maybe scholarly background, will not permanently put a stop to the issue.

Countless of new Bible readers will still be confused and mislead.

 

[JIMINZ]

I understand your point. But try telling that to thousands of other Bible readers who have misinterpreted Hebrews 9:3-4. Try telling that to Bible critics who have used Hebrews 9:3-4 together with Exodus 30:6, to say that Gods Written Word is flawed due to the conflicting details specified in the said passages.

Which simply calls for the said passage to have a much clearer expression in the english language.

In other words, your response, though from a learned and maybe scholarly background, will not permanently put a stop to the issue.

Countless of new Bible readers will still be confused and mislead.

By no means am I Learned or Scholarly.

I am a Born Again Christian, I have read the KJV since I was Saved 1968.
My only teacher has been "The Holy Spirit" that is all anyone needs if they trust God and what it says in His Word, I don't question it, I don't doubt it, but at times I might not understand it, but at those times in particular, is when I expect The Holy Spirit to direct my path to the truth.

There is a secret that I was impressed upon me by the Holy Spirit to begin implementing into my reading, which has opened the doors of understanding immensely, that secret is.

The Bible is not only a Book, why it isn't even a Book of Books, what the Bible is, is a Book of WORDS, if you understand the words used and the way they are used, you can eventually untie any Spiritual knot by Seeking it out.

Look, I'm not an educated man by any means, I only have a 9th grade education, and a GED high school equivalency.

I trust God to give to me the knowledge He has had recorded within the pages of the Bible, He had them written for all of mankind to read, in exactly the Language he wanted them to be recorded in, and then the Translations of those words into our respective Languages,

I only had a Gideons Bible when I got Saved in a Motel room it was a KJV written in Old English, I put the Bible down on the bed after trying to read it for over an hr. without making any sense of it, I told God that night I don't understand what I am reading, so if you want me to understand then you will have to give me the understanding, because you had this thing written, I picked it back up and have read the Old English words used as though they were in today's English, have never had any problem understanding what I read, when I run into a problem, I ask for guidance, and begin to Seek out the understanding, by looking up the words used in whatever it is I am having difficulty comprehending, eventually He gives it to me, but along the way The Holy Spirit has taught me a number of other things, and while doing so, He has replaced a lot of things which I thought I did understand.

So then with that I will say, anyone who wants to understand can, if they apply themselves to the task.

Jas. 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I know, I am long winded sometimes, even with my fingers.

Be Blessed in Christ

 

[Allan Lindsay C. Arce]

By no means am I Learned or Scholarly.

I am a Born Again Christian, I have read the KJV since I was Saved 1968.
My only teacher has been "The Holy Spirit" that is all anyone needs if they trust God and what it says in His Word, I don't question it, I don't doubt it, but at times I might not understand it, but at those times in particular, is when I expect The Holy Spirit to direct my path to the truth.

There is a secret that I was impressed upon me by the Holy Spirit to begin implementing into my reading, which has opened the doors of understanding immensely, that secret is.

The Bible is not only a Book, why it isn't even a Book of Books, what the Bible is, is a Book of WORDS, if you understand the words used and the way they are used, you can eventually untie any Spiritual knot by Seeking it out.

Look, I'm not an educated man by any means, I only have a 9th grade education, and a GED high school equivalency.

I trust God to give to me the knowledge He has had recorded within the pages of the Bible, He had them written for all of mankind to read, in exactly the Language he wanted them to be recorded in, and then the Translations of those words into our respective Languages,

I only had a Gideons Bible when I got Saved in a Motel room it was a KJV written in Old English, I put the Bible down on the bed after trying to read it for over an hr. without making any sense of it, I told God that night I don't understand what I am reading, so if you want me to understand then you will have to give me the understanding, because you had this thing written, I picked it back up and have read the Old English words used as though they were in today's English, have never had any problem understanding what I read, when I run into a problem, I ask for guidance, and begin to Seek out the understanding, by looking up the words used in whatever it is I am having difficulty comprehending, eventually He gives it to me, but along the way The Holy Spirit has taught me a number of other things, and while doing so, He has replaced a lot of things which I thought I did understand.

So then with that I will say, anyone who wants to understand can, if they apply themselves to the task.

Jas. 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I know, I am long winded sometimes, even with my fingers.

Be Blessed in Christ

As for wisdom asked from The Lord, i am given the impression to implore for a better expression in english language, the passage Hebrews 9:3-4.

That of which i have already shared earlier.

 

[Andrewn]

Then it may be less misleading to express Hebrews 9:3-4 as follows:
3. Behind the second curtain was a room called The Most Holy Place,
4. and serving for its purpose are the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.

You raise a very good point but I'm not sure this passage could be translated as you propose.

In Greek, the word for altar is thysiastērion (G2379). The altar of incense was in the Holy Place. A different word is used in Heb 9:3-4. It is thymiatērion (G2369) and should be translated censer rather than altar. Unfortunately, most new translations render this word into altar, as well. Only NKJV, MEV, and EHV have the correct translation.