Drugs for enlightenment?

dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
Supporter
Aug 4, 2012
7,730
3,466
71
Reno, Nevada
✟313,356.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
Honestly, when I am depressed I can't understand why other people don't share my depression.

There are two issues: enlightenment and depression. Sometimes I think that a durable sense of purpose coming from enlightenment might fix the depression. I'm not interested in enlightenment for its own sake.

But maybe trying to love other people would gradually enlighten me and then fix the depression.
I don't think we can be happy if we aren't making some effort to serve others, and this includes the Lord.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟19,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
For me they just chopped off the highs and left me the lows LOL.

It's probably worth telling your prescribing doctor. Different meds work in different ways and they need to get the type of medicine as well as the dosage right. Some of them have to be taken regularly for a long time before there's any effect.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
There are two issues: enlightenment and depression. Sometimes I think that a durable sense of purpose coming from enlightenment might fix the depression. I'm not interested in enlightenment for its own sake.

Enlightenment in Buddhism is more about escaping suffering than anything else, so it looks like it's precisely what you want.

I do have a friend who got over a depressive funk while experimenting with LSD, but I think there are better options out there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

Robban

-----------
Supporter
Dec 27, 2009
11,311
3,057
✟626,034.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Divorced
Honestly, when I am depressed I can't understand why other people don't share my depression.

There are two issues: enlightenment and depression. Sometimes I think that a durable sense of purpose coming from enlightenment might fix the depression. I'm not interested in enlightenment for its own sake.

But maybe trying to love other people would gradually enlighten me and then fix the depression.

Maybe it is lack of motivation.

A small ill equiped group can defeat a mighty well equiped army if it has motivation to do so.

But not going to pretend I know anything about depression.

As far as "Love your fellow as your self" goes,

A quote from Rabbi Menachem Mendel (1789-1866)

"Just like you are blind to your own failings,
your self-love covers them up, so, too,
should your fellow,s failings be swallowed up,
and concealed by your love for him."


It does not seem like you have any problem there though.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
It's probably worth telling your prescribing doctor. Different meds work in different ways and they need to get the type of medicine as well as the dosage right. Some of them have to be taken regularly for a long time before there's any effect.
Scopolamine (AKA "devil's breath" LOL) works amazingly well for me about 50% of the time. Within 15 minutes of applying a motion sickness patch, the depression is completely forgotten and I become a whirlwind of optimistic productivity. Researchers think that scopolamine affects GABA. Since I only had a little bit of scopolamine, I have been experimenting with supplements that affect GABA such as l-theanine and CBD oil. They are both helpful.

I am hoping that in 5 or 10 years there will be some much better antidepressants inspired by scopolamine and ketamine.

Of course some people get benefit from the serotonin drugs. Maybe I would too if I had the right dosage.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Enlightenment in Buddhism is more about escaping suffering than anything else, so it looks like it's precisely what you want.

I do have a friend who got over a depressive funk while experimenting with LSD, but I think there are better options out there.

This brings up another topic. I was googling to see if depression reduces religious faith, but all the articles claimed that religious faith reduces depression. I wondered if this is the old mistake of finding a correlation and incorrectly assuming a causal relationship.

Let's say I am correct that depression saps a person's religious faith and practice like it saps everything else. A survey would find that people who practice Buddhism or meditate regularly are less depressed, and people might prescribe meditation to treat depression. Actually the correlation is caused by the fact that depression makes it nearly impossible for people to care about Buddhism or meditate.

But I don't know how well designed were the studies suggesting that meditation can improve depression.

For some reason Buddhism does nothing for me. I like Hinduism. Of course I don't know a lot about either.

EDIT: LSD must affect people very differently. Sometimes I have suspected that my neurotransmitters are different and that is why I don't see what others see in these things.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
38
New York
✟215,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
This brings up another topic. I was googling to see if depression reduces religious faith, but all the articles claimed that religious faith reduces depression. I wondered if this is the old mistake of finding a correlation and incorrectly assuming a causal relationship.

I have issues with depression and religious faith has had a serious effect. I'm still a neurotic mess, but much less so than before. It's definitely a causal relationship, though the exact nature of it probably varies from person to person.

I think you're right about correlation too, though. No other religion has ever actually made me care enough to actually get started--meditation was always something I was going to start tomorrow.

For some reason Buddhism does nothing for me. I like Hinduism. Of course I don't know a lot about either.

Well, Buddhism is something you would need to actually practice to see results. Of the two of them, I'd definitely pick Hinduism too, but if you're looking for self-help, Buddhism is obviously the more focused of the two.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

Robban

-----------
Supporter
Dec 27, 2009
11,311
3,057
✟626,034.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Divorced
This brings up another topic. I was googling to see if depression reduces religious faith, but all the articles claimed that religious faith reduces depression. I wondered if this is the old mistake of finding a correlation and incorrectly assuming a causal relationship.

Let's say I am correct that depression saps a person's religious faith and practice like it saps everything else. A survey would find that people who practice Buddhism or meditate regularly are less depressed, and people might prescribe meditation to treat depression. Actually the correlation is caused by the fact that depression makes it nearly impossible for people to care about Buddhism or meditate.

But I don't know how well designed were the studies suggesting that meditation can improve depression.

For some reason Buddhism does nothing for me. I like Hinduism. Of course I don't know a lot about either.

In spite of many claims that, "we don,t do this for a reward".

It is the reward that makes it worthwhile,
so even if we "suffer" a little while, it is good to know that He will recompense.

Also,
"He whom He loves does He chastise."

Thereof, "Pain is real, suffering is optional."

Don,t know about anyone else,
but no one told me it would be a picnic.

If this is all there is, then keep it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
My two cents:

Firstly depression: The Neurotransmitter Imbalance theory was based solely on the fact that Reserpine induces depression and an effect thereof is depleting the noradrenalin stores presynaptically; along with the clinical observation of improvement of depressive symptoms when given neurotransmitter modulating agents.
The theory goes that a shortage of one of the Monoamines like Noradrenalin, Serotonin, Dopamine, etc. are to blame.
However, a word of caution. EBM has not shown strong evidence in favour of the efficacy of antidepressants beyond secondary placebo effect (where an inert placebo and an active substance had been used in trials, increasing the placebo effect by people assuming they received the active substance on account of side-effects); the only exception being Sertraline. It has a very narrow confidence interval, so it is EBM suggested practice to subscribe them, but by the slimmest of margins and with very weak support by medical standards. So a major plank of the hypothesis sits on very thin ice indeed.
There are other theories as to its cause, from purely psychological to electromagnetic induction of impulses, etc.

We don't really know what most drugs really do. Even old and established ones. Take Anaesthetic vapours. We have been doing it for 160 years, but we just don't know how they induce anaesthesia. We have theories around disrupting lipid bilayers in nerves or activating or inhibiting receptors, but nothing even remotely definite.
With IV drugs and such, we know here or there some of their effects, but a lot we don't really know what is happening. Take Ketamine for instance: this is a phencyclidine derivative that induces a dissociative state with vivid dreams. We don't really know how it does this. We know it acts on NMDA receptors to inhibit glutamate activation thereof, and it has limited muscarinic and opioid receptor activity. Why this induces dissociation is pure speculation. It might inhibit monoamine uptake or might have some GABA A effects, but we are in the dark mostly.
Another example are Amphetamines that block the Dopamine, Noradrenalin and Serotonin transporters resulting in a build up of these substances. This then results either in euphoria or complete psychosis. These are complex interactions with many receptors. Dopamine 2 seems important for antipsychotic effects though. LSD is another query, as although an ergot alkaloid, why it has flashback phenomena and alters perception seems far more than its 5HT2A receptor agonism should produce. If this had been the case, then people on Prozac should be reporting similar things.
My personal opinion is to not mess with what has not been properly studied nor understood, which means to keep kid gloves when introducing foreign substances altering your neuronal functioning. Don't overestimate our knowledge nor the effects or powers of certain receptors. Most of my anaesthetics seem to work on GABA A, but how it actually does that is often a mystery. Effects of drugs are seen after the drug trials, as what we assume things should do based on structure, is often radically different from what they actually do.

Basically your regulatory options are Opioid receptors, Nociceptin, Orexins, NMDA, GABA, Cholinergics of both muscarinic or nicotinic types, or monoamines like Noradrenalin or Dopamine. All of these things are highly variable, poorly predictable, with multiple effects.
In my experience, people overestimate efficacy. Ketamine induces vivid dreams, but won't induce dreams at all if you don't normally dream. Your Scopolamine is a anti-muscarinic agent, so only indirectly affects GABA if at all. People poisoned by pesticides don't have antidepressant effects, so this is literally looking for an answer around a theory that itself is on shaky ground. GABA is an inhibitory transmitter anyway, so an antimuscarinic inhibiting acetylcholine pathways is equally possible as cause - it is certainly where we think its effects on the vomiting centre lies.

There is no shortcut. Drugs won't give you enlightenment or spirituality. They will mess up your body's homeostatic mechanisms, endocrine control and neuronal function. This might make you hallucinate or have weird experiences, but these will be determined by what was present before any of this started. Whether inducing a pathological state will give you any form of useful experience or not merely be gibberish, I quite frankly doubt it. People often find them intensely pleasurable or "eye-opening", but what they are experiencing is the breakdown of the physiology - a burning car might give you pretty lights, but you can't drive the thing. You can certainly try and rationalise them after the fact, but what intrinsic worth they hold, I don't know.

No, the brain has magnificent neuroplasticity. If you want to get there, you must put in the work of prayer/meditation in my opinion. Some minor pharmaceutical agent like Coffee or Tea may certainly be useful, but these aren't what people usually are looking for in their psychotropic agents. Burning the house down around you will not give you the same experience as calmly warming yourself by a hearth.
 
Upvote 0

Sarah G

Pro-peace, anti-war, anti-violence.
Supporter
Jun 29, 2017
911
1,142
51
Netherlands
✟131,322.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I read this article on depression yesterday and felt validated by it. I took anti-depressants on and off (more on than off) for twenty years but they didn't help at all.
What has helped is using what I suppose are zen teachings and my faith in Lord Jesus Christ.
Ignoring negative, toxic people helps too (I'm sad for them but they have to figure out their own suffering and healing).
Accepting that suffering is part of life and seeing suffering as a gift that brings me closer to God has also been helpful.

Anyway, here is a link to the article about the book, which is getting some attention here in Europe. I feel that the government of the Netherlands are very aware that quality of life is a major factor in preventing and improving mental health problems such as depression, anxiety and addiction. Throwing medication at people is compounding the problem. Blah blah blah.

Is everything you think you know about depression wrong?
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I read this article on depression yesterday and felt validated by it. I took anti-depressants on and off (more on than off) for twenty years but they didn't help at all.
What has helped is using what I suppose are zen teachings and my faith in Lord Jesus Christ.
Ignoring negative, toxic people helps too (I'm sad for them but they have to figure out their own suffering and healing).
Accepting that suffering is part of life and seeing suffering as a gift that brings me closer to God has also been helpful.

Anyway, here is a link to the article about the book, which is getting some attention here in Europe. I feel that the government of the Netherlands are very aware that quality of life is a major factor in preventing and improving mental health problems such as depression, anxiety and addiction. Throwing medication at people is compounding the problem. Blah blah blah.

Is everything you think you know about depression wrong?
I've read some of Kitsch's meta-analyses. It was a big thing a few years ago, but psychiatry has largely settled back into its rut. The thing is that the antidepressants do work, we just aren't sure if this is an actual effect of them or merely placebo. The evidence is not completely clear, but still very marginally in their favour.

The clincher to me is that different antidepressant classes that work by different pathways; TCAs, SSRIs, SNRIs etc.; all appear to have similar amounts of antidepressant effects and a similar delay before becoming active. This suggests a common pathway to create this effect, and seeing that they are pharmacologically very different agents, the strongest candidate is placebo effect.

Cognitive based therapy and other psychological interventions have a comparable effectivity though, so I really don't understand why we aren't focused on them. Likewise Lifestyle modification to prevent depressive states or accrue protective factors. If you are unhappy with you work or such, then quit if feasable. If you have no friends, try and make some. If you suffered psychological trauma, get counselling. The human condition invariably entails some suffering and hardship. This is normal and sadness I think, is physiological to aid us in trying to prevent or do something about such. Drugs have their place, but that should be a supporting role.
Some people are depressed when no reason to be, which I would consider an illness; but I see no reason to medicalise sadness itself, as if being happy is supposed to be the baseline state, and then reach for a chemical crutch.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
However, a word of caution. EBM has not shown strong evidence in favour of the efficacy of antidepressants beyond secondary placebo effect.
I think a huge part of the problem is that depression is a collection of mental illnesses with similar symptoms and no objective measure. For example, scopolamine patches seemed to work extremely well and extremely fast for me (like 30 minutes or less) - but only 50% of the time. The rapidity especially made me suspicious of a placebo effect, but I read about the patches and apparently they are designed to release a large amount at first and then a tiny amount to maintain steadystate. That matched my experience of their effectiveness. After the first 30 minutes the depression was either entirely gone or it wasn't going to work at all. After the depression was removed in the first 30 minutes I could remove the patch and the depression would not return for several days or longer.

So I think scopolamine does work for me, but why 50%? Probably it's because I experience at least two different kinds of depression. If I had a good way to distinguish those two types of depression I suspect that I could get 100% success rate with the scopolamine patches.

I think this is why we have so much trouble treating depression. We need to distinguish the different types first using somewhat objective measures and then choose the correct treatment.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
@Quid est Veritas? it's interesting how in the US the medical people seem to think that the depression problem has already been solved with the serotonin drugs. I don't know how many times I have been scolded for not taking antidepressants. "Depression is easily curable" "We have wonderful new antidepressants - have you tried the newest ones?" "Maybe you didn't take them long enough." "Maybe you didn't have the right dosage."

There is never an acknowledgement from them that "maybe they don't work all the time for everybody".

So the result is that I am essentially accused of wanting to be depressed. It's similar to being told to "put on a happy face".

Also, I think the antidepressant drugs often make people worse or even somewhat addicted. Just give the patient more and more of the same if it isn't working. The only solution IMO is to do-it-yourself. In the US the patients are just nameless faceless statistics rolling down the assembly line to the medical community.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I have issues with depression and religious faith has had a serious effect.
FWIW, from reading your posts it seems that you travel to Europe often. I have read that scopolamine is an over-the-counter medication in Italy and probably in other European nations.

I just took some CBD oil I bought from Bluebird Botanicals ( Welcome to Bluebird Botanicals - Bluebird Botanicals ), because I didn't ride my exercise bike and was feeling nauseated and shaky and depressed. It seems to work excellent today. :) (BTW, the quality if CBD oil seems to vary. Some I have bought doesn't seem to work at all.)

Also I believe the psilocybin mushrooms are legal in the Netherlands (?) You might give that a try. IDK
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
I read a theory that the soma plant of the Rigveda might be the fly agaric mushroom.
I am familiar with that hypothesis, and there's some indication that it might be true. The mushroom was (and is) most certainly used in Siberian shamanic traditions, and there's strong hints it was integral to other traditions throughout the northern hemisphere.

However, fly agaric is NOT a psychedelic mushroom containing psilocybin, but a deliriant. A completely different experience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I am familiar with that hypothesis, and there's some indication that it might be true. The mushroom was (and is) most certainly used in Siberian shamanic traditions, and there's strong hints it was integral to other traditions throughout the northern hemisphere.

However, fly agaric is NOT a psychedelic mushroom containing psilocybin, but a deliriant. A completely different experience.
Assuming the fly agaric is the soma plant, then what would that indicate about the origins of the Aryan people? Did they come from Siberia? Or did the fly agaric at one time grow in the Himalayas?
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Assuming the fly agaric is the soma plant, then what would that indicate about the origins of the Aryan people? Did they come from Siberia? Or did the fly agaric at one time grow in the Himalayas?
We've got a pretty good educated guess, based on linguistic reconstruction and material evidence from archaeology and archaeogenetics:
See here for a list of proposed origins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
FWIW, from reading your posts it seems that you travel to Europe often. I have read that scopolamine is an over-the-counter medication in Italy and probably in other European nations.

I just took some CBD oil I bought from Bluebird Botanicals ( Welcome to Bluebird Botanicals - Bluebird Botanicals ), because I didn't ride my exercise bike and was feeling nauseated and shaky and depressed. It seems to work excellent today. :) (BTW, the quality if CBD oil seems to vary. Some I have bought doesn't seem to work at all.)

Also I believe the psilocybin mushrooms are legal in the Netherlands (?) You might give that a try. IDK

be careful with that CBD oil if you would suffer consequences for having THC in your system. apparently some of the oils do contain THC even if they say they don't.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0