Drugs and guns don't mix

[Michael]

School Shooters & Stabbings Committed by those on Psychiatric Drugs | CCHR International

At least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 172 wounded and 80 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs).

Apparently that drug related common denominator applies to the most recent school shooting as well:

From Prozac to Parkland: Are Psychiatric Drugs Causing Mass Shootings?

Don't get me wrong. I support the second amendment, but I don't really understand the logic of even allowing "assault" rifles to be sold to the public, nor do I believe that someone should be able to own a handgun or an assault rifle before they can even legally drink, but people intent on committing murder do so with knives and trucks too, not just just guns. There's probably an underlying common denominator here between the drug use and mental illness too, so it's far too easy to try to oversimplify this problem.

It seems to me like the most obvious law that should be passed is that anyone taking anti-depressants which have known violent side effects should be prohibited from owning a firearm.

 

[iEye]

There’s a particularly insidious symptom of schizophrenia and psychosis that has the ability to derail even the most stable patient. That symptom is the unusual phenomenon of making connections between things that have no relation in reality.

Take, for example, coincidences. Through simple confirmation bias you notice things that seem to be serendipitous, maybe you buy a new car and start noticing that same model of car everywhere, maybe you learn a new word and then that word seems to appear much more often in the course of your daily affairs. It could be seeing an old flame and thinking that they are following you or seeing a random person who you don’t know numerous times.
Schizophrenia Symptoms: Making Connections

Last week, physicist Brian Cox showed us why everything that could happen does happen in a riveting tour of the quantum universe. In this fascinating short excerpt from BBC’s A Night With The Stars, Cox turns to the Pauli exclusion principle — a quantum mechanics theorem holding that no two identical particles may occupy the same quantum state simultaneously — to explain why everything is connected to everything else, an idea at once utterly mind-bending and utterly intuitive, found everywhere from the most ancient Buddhist scripts to the most cutting-edge research in biology and social science.
Why Everything is Connected to Everything Else, Explained in 100 Seconds

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Last week, physicist Brian Cox showed us why everything that could happen does happen in a riveting tour of the quantum universe. In this fascinating short excerpt from BBC’s A Night With The Stars, Cox turns to the Pauli exclusion principle — a quantum mechanics theorem holding that no two identical particles may occupy the same quantum state simultaneously — to explain why everything is connected to everything else, an idea at once utterly mind-bending and utterly intuitive, found everywhere from the most ancient Buddhist scripts to the most cutting-edge research in biology and social science.
Why Everything is Connected to Everything Else, Explained in 100 Seconds

You may have seen it last week, but it's seven years old. It caused some comment and a great deal of hype, and the upshot seems to be that it was rather misleading, and wrong in parts - it's not the Pauli Principle at work, and the timescales involved in the 'universal adjustment' may be longer than the lifetime of the universe. Sean Carroll explains: Everything is Connected. The 'universal interconnectedness' via particle quantum states has no more practical significance than that due to gravity; quantum fields permeate all of space, but signal propagation is limited to the speed of light.

 

[iEye]

You may have seen it last week, but it's seven years old. It caused some comment and a great deal of hype, and the upshot seems to be that it was rather misleading, and wrong in parts - it's not the Pauli Principle at work, and the timescales involved in the 'universal adjustment' may be longer than the lifetime of the universe. Sean Carroll explains: Everything is Connected. The 'universal interconnectedness' via particle quantum states has no more practical significance than that due to gravity; quantum fields permeate all of space, but signal propagation is limited to the speed of light.

The most well known martyr is Rabbi Akiva, whose skin was raked with iron combs. Despite the pain consuming him, he was still able to proclaim God's providence in the world by reciting the Shema, drawing out the final Echad - "One".

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The most well known martyr is Rabbi Akiva, whose skin was raked with iron combs. Despite the pain consuming him, he was still able to proclaim God's providence in the world by reciting the Shema, drawing out the final Echad - "One".

I think you cross-posted there - that has nothing to do with Brian Cox's presentation.

 

[iEye]

I think you cross-posted there - that has nothing to do with Brian Cox's presentation.

one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.—Ephesians 4:6

 

[DogmaHunter]

School Shooters & Stabbings Committed by those on Psychiatric Drugs | CCHR International



Apparently that drug related common denominator applies to the most recent school shooting as well:

From Prozac to Parkland: Are Psychiatric Drugs Causing Mass Shootings?

Don't get me wrong. I support the second amendment, but I don't really understand the logic of even allowing "assault" rifles to be sold to the public, nor do I believe that someone should be able to own a handgun or an assault rifle before they can even legally drink, but people intent on committing murder do so with knives and trucks too, not just just guns. There's probably an underlying common denominator here between the drug use and mental illness too, so it's far too easy to try to oversimplify this problem.

It seems to me like the most obvious law that should be passed is that anyone taking anti-depressants which have known violent side effects should be prohibited from owning a firearm.

Not sure what this has to do with "Physical & Life Sciences".

This doesn't seem to be the appropriate forum for this topic.

 

[Michael]

Not sure what this has to do with "Physical & Life Sciences".

This doesn't seem to be the appropriate forum for this topic.

It's gray I suppose. I wasn't trying to start a thread on gun control. The articles seem to show a statistical link between not only guns and these events, but also antidepressants and these types of events. I suppose that why I chose to put it in this forum. I'd also be curious to know if there's a statistical correlation between the use of violent video games and such events.

 

[Tanj]

The articles seem to show a statistical link between not only guns and these events, but also antidepressants and these types of events.

Seriously? Which statistics are these? Is it the bit where the author uses the word "correlation" in a sentence?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I'd also be curious to know if there's a statistical correlation between the use of violent video games and such events.

I'ld say that it's probably reasonable to say that gun-crazy people who also like video games will be rather likely to like playing games like Counterstrike.

 

[Michael]

Seriously? Which statistics are these? Is it the bit where the author uses the word "correlation" in a sentence?

From the first article:

Fact: At least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs.....

The author then goes on to list the incidences, and the specific drugs involved.

Of course the drug aspect tends to suggest an underlying mental disorder which could also be the underlying cause of the violence as well, but many of those drugs have known violent or suicidal side effects.

Like I said, I really don't want to start a whole gun regulation thread, I was simply looking at *other* (besides gun) related statistical correlations. I'd bet that statistically most of the incidents were also committed by men rather than women for instance.

 

[Michael]

I'ld say that it's probably reasonable to say that gun-crazy people who also like video games will be rather likely to like playing games like Counterstrike.

Maybe (probably), but I would be curious if there is a statistical link there. I wonder if there are actual scientific studies of these sorts of things? The shooter in Las Vegas seemed to be pretty old to be playing video games, but you never know.

I'd also be curious to find out the statistics of how many of these incidents involve assault rifles rather than say a handgun or an ordinary rifle.

I guess I have some research to do.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It's not surprising that there's a statistical link between shootings and guns...

I think it might be worth looking at more indirect potential influences - such as the increasing incidence of social alienation among susceptible youngsters, and the amount of media attention and available detail on previous shootings (school shooters often mention mention previous shooters in heroic terms), both of which reflect relatively recent and rapid changes in social communication and news media (e.g. the internet, social media).

There doesn't seem to be any significant influence on violence from violent video games. We should be wary of confusing correlation with causation - one might expect someone feeling violent to find ways of sublimating it before actually being violent.

The same may apply to psychiatric drugs - the more disturbed an individual is, the more likely they are to be taking such drugs... I'm skeptical that all the various drugs in the cases mentioned would have those effects, but the question of homicidal (and suicidal) ideation for particular drugs has been flagged for a while now without adequate resolution.

 

[Michael]

It's not surprising that there's a statistical link between shootings and guns...

True. I'm more interested in the correlation between the shootings and assault rifles specifically. I'm sure many of them also involve handguns as well.

I think it might be worth looking at more indirect potential influences - such as the increasing incidence of social alienation among susceptible youngsters, and the amount of media attention and available detail on previous shootings (school shooters often mention mention previous shooters in heroic terms), both of which reflect relatively recent and rapid changes in social communication and news media (e.g. the internet, social media).

Those are good suggestions. Thanks.

There doesn't seem to be any significant influence on violence from violent video games. We should be wary of confusing correlation with causation - one might expect someone feeling violent to find ways of sublimating it before actually being violent.

I hear you. I'm also interested in correlation, not necessarily just causation, but you're right that there could be a correlation without it necessarily being a cause. The correlation aspect might be useful in terms of overall predictive tendencies.

The same may apply to psychiatric drugs - the more disturbed an individual is, the more likely they are to be taking such drugs...

I hear you. I've pointed that out too.

I'm skeptical that all the various drugs in the cases mentioned would have those effects, but the question of homicidal (and suicidal) ideation for particular drugs has been flagged for a while now without adequate resolution.

One of things that also changed rather dramatically over the past few decades is the widespread misuse of opiates and other types of drugs. Widespread access to assault weapons is also a relatively recent phenomenon (though they've been sold to civilians for many decades) that also seems to track with the uptick in mass violence. These types of changes just make me curious.

Assault-Style Weapons In The Civilian Market

Now of course fertilizer, knives and trucks have also been used in mass killing events, so clearly it's not *just* guns that are the problem.

 

[Waterwerx]

It seems to me like the most obvious law that should be passed is that anyone taking anti-depressants which have known violent side effects should be prohibited from owning a firearm.

True, but again, this is only addressing the symptom of the problem and will only succeed in making it more difficult for those particular individuals to obtain fire arms.
Then say someone recently terminated from their job decides to go on a killing spree with guns they already owned. Do we next suspend gun ownership from individuals once they are terminated from a job?

With all of the violence individuals are exposed to on a daily basis from entertainment, mass media, internet, etc., its a wonder this isn't happening more often. Obviously these are sources of influence for both youth and adult, and a breeding ground for stupid ideas that the disgruntled and those without hope turn to as a solution to their problems.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It seems to me like the most obvious law that should be passed is that anyone taking anti-depressants which have known violent side effects should be prohibited from owning a firearm.

That might be tricky - 1 in 6 Americans takes a psychiatric drug. How do you evaluate individual risk? Can you deprive someone of their 2nd Amendment rights on the basis of a small possibility that they might become homicidal - wouldn't you need to show evidence that they are a probable risk? How could you implement such a requirement - how would you deprive someone of guns they own when they start taking such a drug?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

With all of the violence individuals are exposed to on a daily basis from entertainment, mass media, internet, etc., its a wonder this isn't happening more often. Obviously these are sources of influence for both youth and adult, and a breeding ground for stupid ideas that the disgruntled and those without hope turn to as a solution to their problems.

But those are not peculiarly American influences, yet the scale of the problem does seem to be peculiarly American...

 

[Michael]

True, but again, this is only addressing the symptom of the problem and will only succeed in making it more difficult for those particular individuals to obtain fire arms.

Agreed. You and FB bring up some good points. It would be almost impossible to require someone on such drugs to turn in their existing firearms, and it wouldn't be an ideal scenario to try to take them from them. I doubt we'd ever stop all types of violence, including workplace violence even if we took away all guns entirely, and I wouldn't support that to start with.

I don't personally see the point of selling assault rifles to the public, certainly not to someone who's not even old enough to drink. I do think there are some common sense things that we could do to target school shootings particularly, if only increasing the age requirement to obtain such weapons. In the most recent case however, there were *many* calls to the police and FBI about the shooter before the shooting, and there were even police present on campus during the shooting. I'm inclined to believe that this was an extreme case of everyone dropping the ball, and I doubt any new laws would have prevented it.

 

[Tanj]

Sorry for the late reply, was out for the weekend.

From the first article:


The author then goes on to list the incidences, and the specific drugs involved.

This is a bunch of anecdotal observations. There isn't a single piece of statistics in the article.

Like I said, I really don't want to start a whole gun regulation thread, I was simply looking at *other* (besides gun) related statistical correlations.

At this point the misuse of "statistical" is the issue for me. Also, "correlation" is for two dependent continuous variables, which these data aren't.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Apparently that drug related common denominator applies to the most recent school shooting as well

The mafia driven drug based health care system is designed to put money in the drug company pocket. They do not care if they help people or not. As long as they are making a profit.