Dressing Modestly!

RDKirk

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I am ok with you believing or teaching that a woman can wear or not wear whatever they want in this world and not have to worry about those actions attracting evil men.

Although I would never promote this idea, I see no fault in you promoting it. I have no desire to prove you wrong. And would I attribute any attacks to clothing warn. Just like I would not blame a car theft on the owner of an alarm-less car.......Even if i so happen to advise them to get an alarm.

No, you made a statement as though it were a specific fact and now reveal that you actually had no supporting data.

Now you're just making conjectures that sound as naturally obvious as "heavy objects fall faster than light objects," but might be just as wrong.

More clearly, it's placing emphasis in the wrong place. Paul's point was that we should dress to avoid ostentatiousness, not merely to avoid sexually enticing men.

Paul's point is relevant to how everyone dresses. It is as relevant to the man wearing $2,000 hand-made Italian shoes or a $6,000 Rolex watch as it is to the woman wearing a tight miniskirt.
 
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RaymondG

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No, you made a statement as though it were a specific fact and now reveal that you actually had no supporting data.

No, I've revealed that I am not willing to go back and forth over nonsense. It is not that serious. I will not try and prove to you that all criminals dont admit fully to their crimes, and some give reasons for killing and rape other than the contents of their own heart. Some even use their victims as an excuse. If you believe that all criminals place all the blame on themselves, when caught, what use would giving an example of one who didnt, be? Im fine with you believing what you belief....for one day we will all be naked again and not ashamed.

Now you're just making conjectures that sound as naturally obvious as "heavy objects fall faster than light objects," but might be just as wrong.

More clearly, it's placing emphasis in the wrong place.
IF what you say is true, just because you believe it......why cant what I say be true as well because I believe it? What do you get out of trying to prove yourself correct and others wrong?

Paul's point was that we should dress to avoid ostentatiousness, not merely to avoid sexually enticing men.

Paul's point is relevant to how everyone dresses. It is as relevant to the man wearing $2,000 hand-made Italian shoes or a $6,000 Rolex watch as it is to the woman wearing a tight miniskirt.

Ok I see, we much be talking about different threads.... I responded to a thread that spoke only of a facebook post. And now you are bringing in Scripture. We can reason together about scripture.....but it would be good to introduce the subject of your arguments before the conclusion.

Holy scripture is very different from facebook post.....and they deserve differentiation.
 
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Paidiske

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It is ridiculous to imply that one who suggest covering up the body for added protection, is in someway, placing blame on a victim or giving an excuse to criminals.

The problem with your argument is that covering up the body does not give any added protection from rape.

A rapist will rape someone because he can, and because he has decided to. The length of someone's skirt or the height of her neckline will not change that.
 
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RaymondG

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The problem with your argument is that covering up the body does not give any added protection from rape.

A rapist will rape someone because he can, and because he has decided to. The length of someone's skirt or the height of her neckline will not change that.
The problem with your argument is that you have none. You are making up statements and attributing them to me and arguing against them. You seem to have a bias which prevents you from seeing any other side than your own, where this is concerned. This is where we disagreed. I am objective and can understand how and why one can see something other than what I see, and I find no fault in it. You seem to believe everyone should feel as you do or they are wrong.

I understand if one thinks buying alarms or having longer skirts cannot be a deterrence. Some may find shorter skirts more attractive or a car without an alarm , an easier target.

Sure I can say, I don't believe so, so no criminal will believe so either.....but I do not think that highly of my own beliefs.
 
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Paidiske

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The problem with your argument is that you have none.

I have a very clear argument.

Fact: Women are targetted for rape wearing a wide variety of outfits, including very modest ones.
Fact: Rapists do not base their decision to rape on what women are wearing.

Conclusion: Exhorting women to dress modestly does not protect them from rape.

You seem to have a bias which prevents you from seeing any other side than your own, where this is concerned. This is where we disagreed. I am objective and can understand how and why one can see something other than what I see, and I find no fault in it. You seem to believe everyone should feel as you do or they are wrong.

Oh, you are objective and I am biased, despite me basing my argument on facts which are not in dispute.

I see. :rolleyes:

I'm not telling you how you should feel. I'm telling you - as a woman who has navigated the threat of rape for decades now - that the idea that telling women to dress modestly protects us from rape is deeply flawed.
 
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HannahT

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I'm not telling you how you should feel. I'm telling you - as a woman who has navigated the threat of rape for decades now - that the idea that telling women to dress modestly protects us from rape is deeply flawed.

I believe it is cultural to be feel this way, although most will admit there are other factors at work. If there is the slightest possibility? They will go with it.

As we know most criminals look for opportunity. It's just like all the home security ads tell you on TV or other media. Don't give criminals the opportunity to rob your house - buy our product to deter them.

That principle is the same with any criminal activity. If the rapist has the urge? They will look for the best opportunity to do so, and the clothes generally aren't the factor. They also tend to find ways to manipulate the circumstances that will help with that opportunity. This has been reported over and over again.

No doubt men that rape or don't rape have lustful thoughts, but majority of the men have self control and realize you don't go there. It's the same SICK mindset that preys on children. You might think the child is adorable, but only a truly sick mindset would go to the next level to rape them. That also has no 'clothes' factor.

Modesty in a biblical sense to me is a demeanor. People that use shame to teach the modesty issue generally aren't the best candidates to know the principal from my experience. The lofty nature shows a clear sign of lack of humility - which goes along with the modest nature.
 
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RaymondG

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I believe it is cultural to be feel this way, although most will admit there are other factors at work. If there is the slightest possibility? They will go with it.
Is it wrong to suggest something that one believes would help protect someone else? Should i be disturbed if one ask me to put an alarm on my car..... as if alarms stop car theft? As if i would cause a theft if I dont?
I've been navigating car thefts all my life.....and I know car alarms had nothing to do with it.

Car alarms dont stop theft! Therefore should i look down on one who would suggest it? should I treat them as ill-informed people with no experience whose opinions on the matter are irrelevant? Where is the humility in that?

One who suggest the alarm is only offering a way to help, as they see it.

Hey, maybe if a guy, with evil intentions, see two women, one with a long skirt or baggy pants, and one with a tight mini shirt on......he will still play eany meany miney moe to make his selection, maybe not. Either way....I still see one who suggest not wearing the mini skirt, as one with good intentions, only trying to help.....and do not view them as just as evil as the rapist, as some here seem to portray.

I woman can walk past me naked and I wouldnt look twice.....But for me to say that, because I think and handle it this way.....all rapist would as well.....is unwise. To pretend that I know the thoughts of all men and that all men view clothing, or the lack there of, the same way as I do.... is unwise and the opposite of humble.

To say I, as a women, have navigated this all my life, and disregard the view of all males who have navigated a life of seeing women in all types of clothing and feeling the effects they have on the heart and mind....is unwise and not humble at all.
 
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RDKirk

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One who suggest the alarm is only offering a way to help, as they see it.

Hey, maybe if a guy, with evil intentions, see two women, one with a long skirt or baggy pants, and one with a tight mini shirt on......he will still play eany meany miney moe to make his selection, maybe not. Either way....I still see one who suggest not wearing the mini skirt, as one with good intentions, only trying to help.....and do not view them as just as evil as the rapist, as some here seem to portray.

It's just as likely--or more so--that the baggy-dressed woman who will anger a wrong-thinking man because she refuses to cater to his desires.

I remember maybe 20 years ago a television PSA about the role of a Good Samaritan in an accident. It said, essentially, that wanting to be of help was a noble, but gaining the actual knowledge to be help was really the essential thing. Otherwise, a sincere but misguided attempt to help is not really help at all, but can make matters worse.

It challenged people to actually get genuine first aid training so that they could be real help in an emergency, ending with the question, "Are you help?"

I woman can walk past me naked and I wouldnt look twice.....But for me to say that, because I think and handle it this way.....all rapist would as well.....is unwise. To pretend that I know the thoughts of all men and that all men view clothing, or the lack there of, the same way as I do.... is unwise and the opposite of humble.

I'd look twice. The second time would be generated mostly by surprise ("Wait. What did I see?")

But I wouldn't look a third time. A woman walking down the street naked probably has a host of demons in her wake hoping to take advantage of opportunities.
 
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RaymondG

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It's just as likely--or more so--that the baggy-dressed woman who will anger a wrong-thinking man because she refuses to cater to his desires.

Yes, and I would suspect that one who had experience with being attacked because of baggy clothes, would in turn advise others not to wear them. I wouldnt dismiss their feelings or try and make them feel inadequate because my experiences and beliefs are different from theirs. This is the points Ive been trying to make....The one who advises against the baggy clothes is only saying and doing what they believe right....so why would we get angry or belittle them for this?


I remember maybe 20 years ago a television PSA about the role of a Good Samaritan in an accident. It said, essentially, that wanting to be of help was a noble, but gaining the actual knowledge to be help was really the essential thing. Otherwise, a sincere but misguided attempt to help is not really help at all, but can make matters worse.

It challenged people to actually get genuine first aid training so that they could be real help in an emergency, ending with the question, "Are you help?"

I have no problem with doing research to be more helpful.....I just also respect the feelings and beliefs of those who do have not done the research yet still desire to be helpful. There are plenty here, able to bash others because of their superior knowledge. I choose to not be one of them.

I'd look twice. The second time would be generated mostly by surprise ("Wait. What did I see?")

But I wouldn't look a third time. A woman walking down the street naked probably has a host of demons in her wake hoping to take advantage of opportunities.
But what of every other man? Do you believe that there is not one man in the world, who would take action on this target and then blame the lack of clothing for the attack? If there is a possibility that one man would be tempted to evil for the lack of clothing, is it not ok to suggest that clothing be put on for extra protection against that one man? Or should the very suggestion cause the suggester to be lowered to the character of an attacker.....or be deem ill-equiped to form any opinions on the subject?
 
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HannahT

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Is it wrong to suggest something that one believes would help protect someone else? Should i be disturbed if one ask me to put an alarm on my car..... as if alarms stop car theft? As if i would cause a theft if I dont?
I've been navigating car thefts all my life.....and I know car alarms had nothing to do with it.

Car alarms dont stop theft! Therefore should i look down on one who would suggest it? should I treat them as ill-informed people with no experience whose opinions on the matter are irrelevant? Where is the humility in that?

If you look at history, and took that into account? YOu might attempt to use it more wisely. There are plenty of suggestions/opinions in this world, but not all of them are wise to present at any given time. It happens to all of us at one time or another.

No one is suggesting to look down on people due to cultural beliefs that have been promoted in the past. WHat people are suggesting is that you open your mind, and understand that is has been disproved and creates hardships now and in the past. When you look at it this way how is the ill-formed person giving their opinion helping anyone? They aren't. They just like talking most of time. YOu haven't run into people like that when it came to different subjects? I know I have.

The reason I wrote about the alarm system was to point out the detering of crime. If a robber was looking for a home to loot...and they had a choice between two dark homes with no one home. One had an alarm system, and one didn't? Which do you think they would pick? Which would be the better opportunity to rob with the less consequences in that criminal mind? The one with the alarm system sign, and blinking lights in the windows - or the one left with nothing?

If you look at history, and see how women were blamed for their own rapes due to opinions just as clothes? You might gather some intuition as to why find the suggestion is offensive, and attempt to view the issue more objectively. It also would show respect and understanding if you listened to the reasoning, instead of getting defensive over your POV.

To many small children have been blamed under this assumption as well, and I think you and I can agree that is complete nonsense. People that attack children are sick. They were not attacked because they are to sexy.

Suggestions to help protect themselves are plenty, and majority of them do not involve clothing. Telling them that to keep safe you must dress with modesty is giving someone false hope. Sicko's use opportunity, and that is the best education people need to learn about - or have suggestions given to them. Sick minds are looking for opportunity, and not who looks better in clothes.

Modesty in the biblical sense is completely different ball of wax here.
 
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RDKirk

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But what of every other man? Do you believe that there is not one man in the world, who would take action on this target and then blame the lack of clothing for the attack? If there is a possibility that one man would be tempted to evil for the lack of clothing, is it not ok to suggest that clothing be put on for extra protection against that one man? Or should the very suggestion cause the suggester to be lowered to the character of an attacker.....or be deem ill-equiped to form any opinions on the subject?

Oh, for sure, he's going to blame the victim. Even pedophiles blame the victim.
 
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RaymondG

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Oh, for sure, he's going to blame the victim. Even pedophiles blame the victim.
And some of them even believe that there is merit to their blaming. I can understand why one would want to remove the reason the criminal gives for their crime, if possible and easy do, since we cannot remove evil.....can you see why someone could suggest such a thing?
 
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Paidiske

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Is it wrong to suggest something that one believes would help protect someone else? ...

One who suggest the alarm is only offering a way to help, as they see it.

It's not wrong to want to help. But when the person you're trying to help says, "Hey, thanks, but actually that's not helpful at all," then it's time to stop offering that "help."

Suggesting that dressing modestly protects from rape is untrue. And it feeds into a culture of victim-blaming. And it fails to put the responsibility for rape where it belongs; with the rapist.

(You know what rapists actually look for? They look for people who are isolated. People who seem physically and emotionally vulnerable. People who won't fight back. If you want to be helpful, suggest that women stay connected with others, learn to be aware of their surroundings and carry themselves with confidence, learn self-defence. But even then, remember that most rapes occur at home, with the rapist known to the victim, because most rapists are opportunists. And remember that - for example - people with disabilities are vastly over-represented as rape victims, because their disability made them vulnerable, and it's not as if they could do much about that!)

That's why I'm pushing back on this argument. It is untrue, not helpful, and actively harmful.

That's not me being angry or belittling or attacking or bashing you. It's me, very calmly and aiming to be friendly and constructive, trying to explain to you why what you're saying is not helpful and is in fact harmful to women. That's all.

a sincere but misguided attempt to help is not really help at all, but can make matters worse.

Exactly.
 
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Saw this on Facebook and thought i’d share. This applies to both men and women:


A girl bought an iPad. When her father saw it, He asked her "What was the 1st thing you did when you bought it?

"I put an anti-scratch sticker on the screen and bought a cover for the iPad" she replied.

"Did someone force you to do so?"

- "No"

"Don't you think it's an insult to the
manufacturer?"

- "No dad! In fact they even recommend using a cover for the iPad"

"Did you cover it because it was cheap & ugly?"

- "Actually, I covered it because I didn't want it to get damaged and decrease in value."

"When you put the cover on, didn't it reduce the iPad's beauty?"

- "I think it looks better and it is worth it for the protection it gives my iPad."

The father looked lovingly at his daughter and said,
"Yet if I had asked you to cover your body which is much more precious than the iPad, would you have readily agreed???"

She was mute.....

~ Indecent dressing and exposure of your body reduces your value and respect.
Always dress decently.

*Pls protect our young ladies by sharing this with all sisters*.
Dressing Holy

Forget the modesty
of the devil.
 
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RaymondG

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Oh! Oh! Oh! I wanna play! Okay! Okay, so we need to go around telling OTHER PEOPLE to cover up THEIR Ipads! YEAH! YOU! COVER UP YOUR IPAD! YOU! COVER UP YOUR IPAD! YEAH!
It is wise to cover such expensive devises for protection.....The risk of the danger associated with the exposure is not worth to momentary satisfaction we get by having the world view the sexy apple logo on the back. And no, everyone who advise adding protection is not saying that you will damage it without the cover.....it is just to limit the risk as they see it.
 
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BryanJohnMaloney

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It is wise to cover such expensive devises for protection.....The risk of the danger associated with the exposure is not worth to momentary satisfaction we get by having the world view the sexy apple logo on the back. And no, everyone who advise adding protection is not saying that you will damage it without the cover.....it is just to limit the risk as they see it.

And if I don't have an iPad but use an Android device, what then?

Oh! What if I use a cover that provides COMPLETE PROTECTION but still COMPLETELY REVEALS everything underneath! Hey! That's JUST AS GOOD, right!
 
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RaymondG

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It's not wrong to want to help. But when the person you're trying to help says, "Hey, thanks, but actually that's not helpful at all," then it's time to stop offering that "help."

I agree, we should refrain from helping those who do not wish to be helped. I do not see help being forced on anyone in this thread..... It does seem, however, that you are also against help, that you do not approve of, being offered to others as well? Why must you be a filter for all information regarding help for women?

Suggesting that dressing modestly protects from rape is untrue. And it feeds into a culture of victim-blaming. And it fails to put the responsibility for rape where it belongs; with the rapist.

You are again, twisting information to fit your narrative. No one suggested that, if one dresses appropriately, they will never be raped. Just like no one suggests that, with an alarm, their car will never be stolen. One who suggest a car alarm, is not blaming the owners of stolen un-alarmed cars for the theft. Neither is one who suggest wearing clothes, supporting the rape of naked women.

These are the kinds of ideas that makes reasoning with authors of these words, seem unreasonable.

(You know what rapists actually look for? They look for people who are isolated. People who seem physically and emotionally vulnerable. People who won't fight back. If you want to be helpful, suggest that women stay connected with others, learn to be aware of their surroundings and carry themselves with confidence, learn self-defence. But even then, remember that most rapes occur at home, with the rapist known to the victim, because most rapists are opportunists. And remember that - for example - people with disabilities are vastly over-represented as rape victims, because their disability made them vulnerable, and it's not as if they could do much about that!)
How is it that you know the heart and mind of every rapist and potential rapist alive? Do you have degrees related to the study of the mind? Have you conducted interviews with hundreds of criminals and now attribute your findings to all criminals and potential criminals?

You say what happens in most cases......so there are a few cases you dont cover. How do you know that covering up one day wont help one woman one time in one part of the world? And if there is that chance....would it not be worth it? What is the harm in helping that one person, while you focus only on the "most" of cases.

You say these people are opportunist.......Therefore is it beyond the realm of possibility that one person one day who seeks a targets, would rather a target in a really short skirt, than a pair of pants or something else more difficult to remove? Is there a chance he would be more enticed by breast that are clearly visible than those that are fully blocked by clothing?

Even if this is a one in a million chance.....where is the harm in suggesting clothes? Why does the suggestion support the criminal?

That's why I'm pushing back on this argument. It is untrue, not helpful, and actively harmful.
I feel likewise, that your suggestion is unwise and sends a feeling of hopelessness. You seem to not want any help from men or anyone you deem less knowledgeable.....

Yet, I will not push back.....My words are for the readers to see an alternate perspective.

That's not me being angry or belittling or attacking or bashing you. It's me, very calmly and aiming to be friendly and constructive, trying to explain to you why what you're saying is not helpful and is in fact harmful to women. That's all.
I do not presume to know your heart and mind......I am just reading words......neither is my heart and mind affected by the words I read.

Also I speak for myself, not all men.....and I presented natural scenarios and options, and not anything that I feel or believe concerning these actual situations or any biblical significance.

My only theme has been, that I see no wrong in the OP offering help, as they see it, in the form of coverings; however helpful it may actually be. For they are only doing and saying what they believe is right. If we were all shut down and dismissed for every word that left our mouth, by those who disagreed.....how many of our words would be left standing?

When I am shut down in the future, will it be because im speaking truth and the Bible says that people will not hear it? Or will i be reaping what I've sown.....because I too dismissed words I felt came from a less than knowledgeable source?
 
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RaymondG

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And if I don't have an iPad but use an Android device, what then?

There are equally suitable clothing for ipads and galaxies....most manufacturer offer cases, of different protection levels, for both.

Oh! What if I use a cover that provides COMPLETE PROTECTION but still COMPLETELY REVEALS everything underneath! Hey! That's JUST AS GOOD, right!
Ah yes, the see through cases. While your case may still provide protection for drops......it does nothing for theft protection.
The device/body, is the goods.....some of these cost 1k easy....while others could be $100. A criminal would rather steal the 1k device because they can make more money from it.......to them, the risk of getting caught is not worth it for the $100 device...but is for the $1300 device.

Using the see through case lets the thief know what you have.......if you were standing next to a person with a see-through case on their ipad, or no case, and your ipad was fully covers.....because you didnt want to show the world what you had.....I believe the ipad which is fully visible, would be the preferred target.

But I would understand if you bought the see-through case, or had no case at all, and would not think your were at fault for any theft.

Would I be a bad guy for suggesting insurance for your device instead? Or would that be victim blaming?
 
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