Drake Equation, Abiogenesis and Aliens

[SelfSim]

I think Kaufman proposed this as a possibility. I'll dig out his books and see if I can confirm that. However, I'm not sure that it addressed the same aspect of abiogenesis as is concerning you.

I'll confess .. I've recently been reading up on Kauffman. Addy Pross is another evolutionary biologist who proposed similar ideas which I think migrate towards the idea of a similar-looking fourth law.

 

[SelfSim]

See, there are clear distinctions in the way a purely thermodynamic model evolves over time, and the way an evolutionary model does the same.

I'll have a go at describing what Pross has to say (paper here):

i) Convergence towards a thermodynamic sink, is where a closed system ceases to undergo further change, and at that point, the system achieves a thermodynamically stable equilibrium state. We can predict where a regular chemical system is headed from known historical precursors (i.e., in a convergent direction toward its thermodynamic sink), but we cannot retrace from that sink point, to 'post-dict' what those precursors were.

Then we have;
ii) Divergence, in replicator space, from a single common dynamic stability, which is based on change, as opposed to lack of change. There is no single, unique pathway to subsequent values. The divergent topology here however, allows retracing of pathways back to a common ancestor (eg: LUCA - as is evidenced by the fossil record), but (so far) prevents prediction of where any one of the multiple evolutionary pathways into the future, will necessarily end up.

In case (i) above, thermodynamic stability, being a state function, is independent of factors extraneous to the system, (ie: its closed), whereas the dynamic kinetic stability (DKS) of physical, chemical and biological systems (ie: more 'open'), may be dramatically affected by changing physical circumstances. (This is where already critically poised, 'edge of equilibrium' systems can introduce unpredictable outcomes).

The difference is significant. Thermodynamic stability can be quantified because it is state based, (and can have state functions assigned). Dynamic Kinetic Stability is circumstantial .. it cannot be formally quantified, and can only be assessed in a qualitative way, because it is determined primarily by factors external to the system.

I think traditional classical physicists might find this view somewhat dissatisfying(?) It comes from the biology side, but the behaviour is still evident in less complex systems (eg: moving bicycles remain upright, rivers and fountains flow, new water replacing old, yet those rivers and fountains appear unchanged, etc).

His various papers are mainly about describing the above model topological distinctions .. but the perspective looks to give cause to look more closely into the current physical universe principles of thermodynamic view of the universe, (IMHO).

 

[Estrid]

Interesting post, but yet nobody has reproduced life.
The problem with life is that it is very complex, its one thing to have eddies and vortices form (which are short lived), its quite another to have the complex machinery of a cell form quickly, fully and for long enough to take hold and thrive.
A cell is a very sophisticated piece of nano-engineering, and no-one has demonstrated how such an ordered state can arise by chance or by natural processes all occurring at the same time roughly.

An airplane can clearly exist, but no airplane is made by natural processes, its just too complex.

Cells as we know them are complex.
But is that the simplest possible form of life?

Re airplanes, a Wright flyer is complex, but is complexity
per se why it could not form naturally? Why, exactly, can't it?
Weather is far more complex than than a home
made airplane. Why do storms form naturally?
What is the fundamental difference, between living
things, or weather, and a manufactured item?

I find these interesting things to work out.

 

[Estrid]

A new ‘fourth Law' (OT) that is specific to the biosphere, would explain, (by way of evidence), the growth of diversity and complexity of information processing autocatalytic sets having certain thermodynamic properties.
There would be a clear distinction between 'thermodynamic information' and 'evolutionary information' (or niche favouring information).

'Special pleading': I'm not advocating this idea .. its a possible area of potentially valid investigation. (Some reviewed ideas have already been published on the concept).

Thanks for the response. My term was faulty, I didn't think
you were advocating for it.

 

[SelfSim]

Thanks for the response. My term was faulty, I didn't think
you were advocating for it.

Ok .. all good.
It sometimes gets tiresome fighting the same ol' pseudoscience and ideologies ..
Thought I'd introduce a subject actually worthy of discussion in a Science Forum (for a change)

 

[SelfSim]

A cell is a very sophisticated piece of nano-engineering,

Evidence please?

.. and no-one has demonstrated how such an ordered state can arise by chance or by natural processes all occurring at the same time roughly.

That's just your own personal made-up criterion ...

An airplane can clearly exist, but no airplane is made by natural processes, its just too complex.

We already know how planes are made and there is objective (historical) evidence for their intended purpose ..
If one were to show up on some moon known to have never been explored by humans, I would say that would lead to some fairly serious questions about what 'natural processes' really means!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A new ‘fourth Law' (OT) that is specific to the biosphere, would explain, (by way of evidence), the growth of diversity and complexity of information processing autocatalytic sets having certain thermodynamic properties.
There would be a clear distinction between 'thermodynamic information' and 'evolutionary information' (or niche favouring information).

'Special pleading': I'm not advocating this idea .. its a possible area of potentially valid investigation. (Some reviewed ideas have already been published on the concept).

The closest I've heard to that idea is the idea that the drive to complexity to maximize dissipation in dissipative systems could be formulated as a (meta) LOT. But that would apply to all dissipative systems

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Cells as we know them are complex.
But is that the simplest possible form of life?

Re airplanes, a Wright flyer is complex, but is complexity
per se why it could not form naturally? Why, exactly, can't it?
Weather is far more complex than than a home
made airplane. Why do storms form naturally?
What is the fundamental difference, between living
things, or weather, and a manufactured item?

I find these interesting things to work out.

Perhaps they can be thought of as characterisations of different levels of indirection and emergence of order with regard to self-organizing systems. Storms are emergent self-organizing systems, but don't produce anything ordered; living things are emergent self-organizing systems and (by definition) reproduce their order and organization - but they can also produce other forms of emergent order, from behavioural order to constructions & excavations. At a higher level of emergence, ordered cognition can produce the abstracted representational order of concepts, ideas, and plans, that can indirectly result in further ordered behaviours...

 

[Estrid]

Perhaps they can be thought of as characterisations of different levels of indirection and emergence of order with regard to self-organizing systems. Storms are emergent self-organizing systems, but don't produce anything ordered; living things are emergent self-organizing systems and (by definition) reproduce their order and organization - but they can also produce other forms of emergent order, from behavioural order to constructions & excavations. At a higher level of emergence, ordered cognition can produce the abstracted representational order of concepts, ideas, and plans, that can indirectly result in further ordered behaviours...

Over my head

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Over my head

Sorry; I'm basically saying that complex systems can form hierarchies of emergent complexity and order.

 

[Estrid]

Sorry; I'm basically saying that complex systems can form hierarchies of emergent complexity and order.

Ok tnx.

That I get even if I'm not the one to expound on it.

We've seen it said that the flow of energy thro a system
acts to organize it.

Same thing?

 

[Ophiolite]

We already know how planes are made and there is objective (historical) evidence for their intended purpose ..
If one were to show up on some moon known to have never been explored by humans, I would say that would lead to some fairly serious questions about what 'natural processes' really means!

You mean like this?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We've seen it said that the flow of energy thro a system
acts to organize it.

Same thing?

That's how it develops.

 

[SelfSim]

Sorry; I'm basically saying that complex systems can form hierarchies of emergent complexity and order.

Umm .. I think you're actually saying that you can visualise a (hierarchical) model there, by categorising your observations of what you can classify against some measurable parameter of a complex system.
I'm not so sure that means it has physical significance though(?)
Its certainly testable, I think(?)

 

[SelfSim]

You mean like this?

Gotta laugh about that .. (love the conspiracy discovery stories .. )

Still, I think its always a good reality check to (hypothetically) consider the impact the discovery of such a virtual impossibility, might have on our distinctions of 'us' vs 'nature'.

 

[Estrid]

Gotta laugh about that .. (love the conspiracy discovery stories .. )

Still, I think its always a good reality check to (hypothetically) consider the impact the discovery of such a virtual impossibility, might have on our distinctions of 'us' vs 'nature'.

If it happens then soon goes the law of averages, and before you
know it the law of diminishing returns will falter.
There will be chaos, jumping from windows, atonal music..

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Umm .. I think you're actually saying that you can visualise a (hierarchical) model there, by categorising your observations of what you can classify against some measurable parameter of a complex system.
I'm not so sure that means it has physical significance though(?)
Its certainly testable, I think(?)

It's just a descriptive model. I'm not sure what you mean by its 'physical significance'.

 

[SelfSim]

If it happens then soon goes the law of averages, and before you know it the law of diminishing returns will falter.
There will be chaos, jumping from windows, atonal music..

The so-called 'law of averages' is just a belief (so could be easily dispensed with) .. The 'law of diminishing returns' is a bit of a different kettle of fish, (I think?) .. Hmm .. I suppose certain key people jumping out of windows, might throw it into some kind chaos too(?) ..

 

[SelfSim]

I'm not sure what you mean by its 'physical significance'.

Yep .. that's just about always our sticking point(?)

 

[SelfSim]

No, this is a common error. Complexities like life are dependent on the entropy gradients made by low-entropy sources of free energy, and are known as 'dissipative systems' because they convert low entropy energy into high entropy energy more efficiently than simple systems. Thermodynamics drives the development of complexity when free energy is available.

Coming back to the complexity question, although from a completely different viewpoint from where @Sorn and @FrumiousBandersnatch were discussing, yet thread-relevant comes from this article:
Complex molecules could hold the secret to identifying alien life:

A new system capable of identifying complex molecular signatures could aid in the search for alien life in the universe and could even lead to the creation of new forms of life in the laboratory, scientists say.

University of Glasgow researchers have developed a new method called Assembly Theory which can be used to quantify how assembled or complex a molecule is in the laboratory using techniques like mass spectrometry. The more complex the object, the more unlikely that it could arise by chance, and the more likely it was made by the process of evolution.

Paper here.
From the Abstract:

The search for alien life is hard because we do not know what signatures are unique to life. We show why complex molecules found in high abundance are universal biosignatures and demonstrate the first intrinsic experimentally tractable measure of molecular complexity, called the molecular assembly index (MA). To do this we calculate the complexity of several million molecules and validate that their complexity can be experimentally determined by mass spectrometry. This approach allows us to identify molecular biosignatures from a set of diverse samples from around the world, outer space, and the laboratory, demonstrating it is possible to build a life detection experiment based on MA that could be deployed to extraterrestrial locations, and used as a complexity scale to quantify constraints needed to direct prebiotically plausible processes in the laboratory. Such an approach is vital for finding life elsewhere in the universe or creating de-novo life in the lab.

So, from this, this complexity measure becomes the way of distinguishing Evolved from non-Evolved molecules .. good for diagnosis of life remotely(?)