Down the Wormhole as to Why Jesus Freely Died on the Cross

[Clare73]

And yet the tree of the knowledge of good and evil existed as God has said we had come to know it like they already did.,

1) Evil already existed. It occurred in heaven at the trial of the angels.
2) While evil existed in the serpent, no evil of man existed on earth until they disobeyed by eating of the tree, whereby they indeed acquired personal knowledge of evil. . .in the personal doing of it.

 

[timothyu]

1) Evil already existed. It occurred in heaven at the trial of the angels.

2) While evil existed in the serpent, no evil of man existed on earth until they disobeyed by eating of the tree, whereby they indeed acquired personal knowledge of evil in the doing of it.

Agreed but sin was not the knowledge of evil, but of simply disobeying God. Putting our will ahead of God and not thinking of others others causes all the evils in this world

 

[Clare73]

Agreed but sin was not the knowledge of evil, but of simply disobeying God.

When did the sin of disobeying God cease to be evil?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's exactly what I said..we share..but we are not God himself.

It's you who type "God", my post said "god". Perhaps the capitalisation was missed?

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Start the answer with this thought:

Therefore, since we have a great High Priest, who has pierced the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, we should hold to our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to have compassion on our infirmities, but rather one who was tempted in all things, just as we are, yet without sin. Therefore, let us go forth with confidence toward the throne of grace, so that we may obtain mercy, and find grace, in a helpful time.​

Hebrews 4:14-16​

God became man so that mankind can become god; Christ went through everything that a human being does, birth, growing, eating and drinking, hunger, suffering, and death. He also experienced what human beings have yet to experience, resurrection, ascension, glorification. The crucifixion is in there among the life experiences of God incarnate.

Do you feel God planned this whole scenario so we people would learn from it or is there a unknown consequence from The Fall that made God send His only Son as a ransom for this consequence? That is where my search is going.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The 2nd part, OK.
I'm not sure that first part makes sense.

If someone says he's the son of God, he can lead you to eternal life and you kill him and he stays dead, that's one thing.

"hmm, guess not. next?"

If someone says he's the son of God, he can lead you to eternal life and you kill him and 3 days later God resurrects him, that's another.

"uh oh..."

The murder exposes the depths of the sinful nature of mankind, which is a part of all of us regardless of who gave the orders and who drove the nails in. That's what he came to rescue us from. The crucifixion exposes it. The resurrection was final proof of authenticity - he is who he said he is, he came from where he said he came from and he can do what he said he can do. The extremes of both natures (man's and God's) are exposed and the difference between them.

Christ is the last peace offering the rebels get before their final overthrow. For those that lay down their arms and follow him out, all is forgiven.

The first is that we are condemned already through Adam's rebellion against God and siding with Satan when through the snake he said that if they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they wouldn't die, but would become like gods who knew good from evil. Adam's choice to take the fruit from Eve and eat it was direct disobedience to God's command, and in doing so brought sin and death into the world and condemned all of mankind. If you take the trouble to read the book of Romans, Paul explains it very clearly.

The problem now is, that if mankind is to be able to take advantage of God's plan of Salvation, someone needs to take the penalty. The one who has to take the penalty has to be divine, and truly man as well. Divine to be able to withstand the full weight of God's eternal wrath for the rebellion, and man to be the perfect substitute for mankind. This is why Jesus came into the world. He was divine and man, and so he fulfilled both criteria. When Jesus died on the cross, he spent three hours under the eternal wrath of God, and the miracle is that it took Jesus only three hours to withstand the full wrath of God for every single people born from Adam to the last person born in the future, who would have had to suffer under it for the rest of eternity without end. An ordinary man would have been burned up in the first few seconds. But Jesus, being divine, went right through to the point when He was able to say, "It is finished. The debt of sin has been paid." And then He was able to die.

For those who receive Christ, Jesus paid their debt of sin and so released them from condemnation. No one killed Jesus. He went to the Cross by His own choice as part of God's plan of salvation, and once the debt of sin had been paid, He willingly gave up His spirit to the Father.

Jesus then rose from the dead after three days to show that He has power over death and hell, and signals to all those who have received Him, that as He rose from the dead, so they will one day rise from the dead as He did. His resurrection gives every converted believer the assurance that they will rise to enter into the joys of the Lord.

Actually, I got all this by just reading the Bible...fancy that.

 

[YahuahSaves]

my post said "god".

Yes, it was the context in which you wrote it... it sounded to me like you were referring to the 'we are little gods' theory.

The trinity is the Godhead, we are but sons and daughters of God.

Here is a helpful read if you want to know what I'm expressing with my response.

Are Christians “little gods”? | GotQuestions.org

Are Christians “little gods”? Do Christians become gods? What does the Bible mean when it says “you are gods”?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Hvizsgyak]

God did not create evil. He created human beings and angels with the ability to choose obedience or disobedience, each choice carrying its own consequences.
Both angels and humans, when they were tried, chose disobedience.
And that is where evil comes from--the creature, not the Creator.

No more unfair than a skunk or rattlesnake suffering the consequences of being born of a skunk or rattelsnake.

That reasoning has no Biblical basis.
It's not about choice, it's about regeneration--being born again, or not.

He died as a matter of justice according to the Divine Court.
Just as in our legal system, we have penalties for law-breaking, including the death penalty,
so in God's system of justice, sin carries a spiritual death penalty (eternal damnation).
Jesus suffered our death penalty for us, buying (ransoming) us back
--redeeming those who believe in and trust on his death for the remission of their sin--
from eternal death (eternal damnation).

God himself provided the sacrifice (his only Son) to satisfy his own justice (Ro 3:25).
And the Son willingly did the will of the Father.

This makes some sense but I'm a very "break it down to it's simplest form" type of person so let me step through how I perceive your statement. God creates (along with everything in the known universe) the angels and man (and woman). God's intentions all along are for angels and humans to be with Him in Paradise. But the some of the angels rebel against God and the first humans disobeyed His rules. God still wanted humans to be with Him in Paradise (or someone or something) still wanted humans to be in Paradise. But God being a just God had to have someone pay the penalty (death?) for the disobedience to his rules. So God sent His only Son to be sacrificed (and Jesus chose this role freely) on the Cross so the debt for the penalty of disobedience (and evil) was paid. Humans could now be with God in Paradise (if they chose to).

Does this sound about right in a simplistic form?

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Darkness is the absence of light.
Evil is the absence of good.

Darkness didn't exist until it occurred in creation.
Evil didn't exist until it occurred in disobedience.

Not to set this conversation in a different direction but in the real, scientific world darkness is the original state - until the sun and the stars were put into place. I understand what you are saying but nature seems backward then, doesn't it? Continue on though, you are doing a pretty good job.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Do you feel God planned this whole scenario so we people would learn from it or is there a unknown consequence from The Fall that made God send His only Son as a ransom for this consequence? That is where my search is going.

Nothing is unknown to God.
Just think of it this way: it's Gods story.
The entire Bible points to Jesus.
He (God) is the truth, the way and the life.

Why he decided to write the story this way? Only he knows the answer. But isn't it interesting that he always wants to instruct and teach us his ways? To be speak of him is great, but to speak to him and he to you is better. Have you asked him to guide you into truth in this way?

Jeremiah 9:23-24, NLT This is what the Lord says: “Don’t let the wise boast in their wisdom, or the powerful boast in their power, or the rich boast in their riches. But those who wish to boast should boast in this alone: that they truly know me and understand that I am the Lord who demonstrates unfailing love and who brings justice and righteousness to the earth, and that I delight in these things. I, the Lord, have spoken!

Matthew 22:34-46​

The Most Important Commandment​

28 One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] No other commandment is greater than these.”

 

[Fervent]

The imputation-penal substitution model of sin and atonement is so bizarre to me. It has an explaination for everything except what it has to do with us. After all, the sin is supplied by Adam and the salvation belongs to Christ. What part do we play in it? Christianity without the Christian is what it amounts to.

As for where to start when looking at what happened at Calvary, seems the best place is to examine what God put in place to prepare us for it. Which is the Levitical sacrifices. What does Leviticus tell us? Atonement is in the blood. So what's the blood doing in the Levitical sacrifices? It's not alleviating guilt, it's repairing a wound and destroying the stain of sin. Where wrath is involved in the sacrifices is with the smoke, which becomes clear when you understand that the Hebrew word for anger is the same word for nose/nostril. So what separates us from God is not His inability to let go of His anger at sin without some innocent suffering a gruesome and torturous death, honestly how is that supposed to work? He held out for eating fruit until we murdered His son? That's what sparked His forgiveness? No, God's forgiveness is a gift and Jesus' blood is a cleansing salve to wash away the stain of sin that is on our flesh. Christ died in our place, but not as an act of vengeance. Jesus took our prison of flesh that was bound to death, and exchanged it for His blood which is filled with life.

 

[timothyu]

When did the sin of disobeying God cease to be evil?

Who said that? Rephrase?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you feel God planned this whole scenario so we people would learn from it or is there a unknown consequence from The Fall that made God send His only Son as a ransom for this consequence? That is where my search is going.

It's a mystery some of which has been revealed and some is still secret, awaiting the resurrection when more, perhaps all, shall be revealed.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

it sounded to me like you were referring to the 'we are little gods' theory.

I cannot be responsible for what transpires in your mind

 

[YahuahSaves]

I cannot be responsible for what transpires in your mind

That's very true!
Sorry if I assumed wrongly

 

[bling]

Showing only the limitations of your understanding. . .

If you know of any recorded description of the "Ransom Theory of Atonement" where the Ransom goes to someone other than Satan please reference it, so I could learn of this?

Somewhat inadequate understanding of justice. . .no one is personally recompensed (made whole) by someone else's prison sentence.

Where are you finding your definition of Justice which includes justice being specifically paid anything? The civil debt is paid to society. Society is acting like the parent and disciplining their children, to help both the child and the other children.

I would Love to know: Do you personally feel grievous empathy, when you remember Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered on the cross because of your personal sins and to help you personally?

 

[Clare73]

Not to set this conversation in a different direction but in the real, scientific world darkness is the original state - until the sun and the stars were put into place

Which is why light had to be created.

And does not alter the fact that darkness is the absence of light.

I understand what you are saying but nature seems backward then, doesn't it? Continue on though, you are doing a pretty good job.

Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

This makes some sense but I'm a very "break it down to it's simplest form" type of person so let me step through how I perceive your statement. God creates (along with everything in the known universe) the angels and man (and woman). God's intentions all along are for angels and humans to be with Him in Paradise.

Assumptive, and limiting, on your part.
God could have a far more intricate and purposefuf plan than you imagine.

But the some of the angels rebel against God and the first humans disobeyed His rules. God still wanted humans to be with Him in Paradise (or someone or something) still wanted humans to be in Paradise. But God being a just God had to have someone pay the penalty (death?) for the disobedience to his rules. So God sent His only Son to be sacrificed (and Jesus chose this role freely) on the Cross so the debt for the penalty of disobedience (and evil) was paid. Humans could now be with God in Paradise (if they chose to).

Unless the helpless estate of humans, and God's one and only Son paying the price to redeem/ransom them from their helpless estate was an intricate and necessary part of the plan. (Ro 9:23).

Does this sound about right in a simplistic form?

Humanly simplistic.

 

[Clare73]

Agreed but sin was not the knowledge of evil, but of simply disobeying God. Putting our will ahead of God and not thinking of others others causes all the evils in this world.

A distinction without a difference.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not to set this conversation in a different direction but in the real, scientific world darkness is the original state - until the sun and the stars were put into place. I understand what you are saying but nature seems backward then, doesn't it? Continue on though, you are doing a pretty good job.

"...in the real, scientific world darkness is the original state"? What does "original" mean? Default? Something that was there when there was nothing? The default is God.

This temporal, "physical" or "material" existence of ours is the only one Science can study. It is only a vapor compared to the solid Spiritual World. I speak here as a human to a human: The fringes of understanding can't go where this goes, but we can make some statements to try to convey the worth of this or that. God had to 'invent' the nothingness for something to be in. God is subject to no principle from outside himself. Science doesn't have a clue about real. Only about logical and tangible, experimental evidence. So, to say darkness is the original state, seems to imply that God intruded into nature. Not so. It was not around. Nor was 'the way of things' as we know it.

Which is why light had to be created.

And does not alter the fact that darkness is the absence of light.

Thanks.