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Don't you dare ever even begin to think about "Pink Elephants", don't you dare...

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    This is a new post that is going to address the true nature of the OT Law Covenant, and any kind of list of do not's, and do not do's, and do not ever do's, or do not even ever dare even think about's or ever do's, etc, OK...?

    For example if I told you that thinking about "Pink Elephants" was very, very evil and wicked, and don't you dare ever even dare to ever think about "Pink Elephants" ever, etc, what would be the very first thing you would think about or that would come to your mind...?

    And then, what If added some "very intense fear" or told about a concept of "very big and bad, very great and very powerful, and oh so very high and very great above you Most High God" also, etc, but that as great and high as He was, was also here, with you, etc, and was always here and present with you wherever you go and follows you around, and knows all of every single one of your thoughts at all times, including if you ever even dare to think about evil "Pink Elephants" ever, etc, and was gonna "get you" and was always "out to get to get you" continually and always, etc, and then told you about Him or how that One was always going to always "punish" you always, and was always out just looking for the opportunity to punish you always, etc, and punish you and come down on you hard and bad if you ever even dare ever thought about evil "Pink Elephants", etc, and then I told you that He would burn you in a kind of great eternal torment and torture of a kind of very, very bad Hell and everlasting fire being burned alive forever, if you even ever thought about oh so very evil "Pink Elephants" even once ever, etc, and "don't you dare ever do it", etc...

    Anyway, ad that kind and great level of great fear and superstition to a list of do not ever do's or don't even ever dare think about's, etc, and what do you get...? And what if it makes you panic or panicky...? And what if then, you then think the "solution" is to always "rehearse over and over again in your mind" these ideas and concepts, etc, and always what your not supposed to do or ever even dare think about over and over again in your mind, so you don't ever do it or ever think about it ever, etc...? Like, "I'm not going to think of Pink Elephants", "I'm absolutely not going to think about Pink Elephants", "I'm not even going to ever even dare think about Pink Elephants", or a great big bad God is going to punish me and make me suffer both here and now in this life, and forever in eternity, etc, and knows all my thoughts all of the time, etc, follows me around, watching me and just always waiting to pounce, or is always out to get me, etc, and is going to punish me, and punish me bad in a life after this one, etc, and forever and ever in a/the life after this one, if I only even ever think about "Pink Elephants" only once, etc, etc, etc, and you play this "over and over and over again in your mind" to "keep yourself from doing and/or ever even thinking about it, "Pink Elephants", etc, anyway, what do you think is going to happen with that person...? Would they not just be constantly thinking about and be having lots and lots of problems with "Pink Elephants" all of the time, etc...?

    Is it not going to make the temptation to think about Pink Elephants very very bad and very very much more intense and even far very much more worse based on the level or fear involved, and and/or superstition involved as well, etc...?

    This is why the OC doesn't work and is monumental failure, if it was ever really even truly intended to ever really truly succeed, etc...

    But, Jesus flipped it on it's head, and instead of telling what "not to ever do or think about's", ever, etc, told us instead "what to do and/or think about and/or dwell on", etc, but "think about", etc...

    The two commandments of His that are wrapped up in one word, "Love", Love God with all you are, have, etc, and your neighbor or your fellow man as yourself, etc, are so very much more far superior to the OT Law Covenant, or strict list of do not do's by all powerful out to get you God, that there is just "no comparison", etc...

    And only very very good things should come from or should be associated with those words and with thinking about and /or dwelling upon them in our minds, instead of a whole list of do not dare ever do's, or don't even ever dare think about's, etc...

    And as you think about Love, and all the different kinds of Love, and what it means to truly Love, and have "Real True Love", etc, in "all kind of contexts with all kinds of different people", etc, only good should ever come of it and/or ever be associated with it ever, or come out of it ever, etc, (unless you have a very warped or distorted view of Love, or tie it too closely to lust in all contexts, etc, then you might have some problems with it for a time, etc), but other than that, if we really think about real Love and what true real Love is and means and in all kind of contexts and situations and circumstances, etc, nothing but only ever only good ever should ever always become of it ever, in the end most especially, etc...

    Jesus said they fulfilled the "true nature or true intentions of the Spirit behind the OT Law Covenant", and I think He was very much absolutely correct, how about you...?

    Can you not see how all the other ways, with a whole list of "do not's", and "do not you even ever dare think about's or do's", or rather "do not ever do's", etc, or your going to suffer greatly for it both here and also in a firey Hell for all eternity, etc, by a very big and extremely powerful big and bad-butt God if you ever do, etc...? Anyway, can't you just "see" how very "opposite" and how very truly "counterproductive" that all truly is, etc...?

    Jesus must have known this about the OT Law Covenant, and we know Paul did as well, and maybe some of the other apostles had it maybe, or were still trying to fully grasp it and latch onto it maybe, but maybe just were not fully "there yet" maybe, etc, but were in the process of "getting there", etc, maybe, etc, maybe...? some more or less so than others maybe, etc, about the OT Law Covenant, etc...

    But anyway, the old way, all of the old just do not's just do not work, and we need to give them up, cause they just make everything, "sin", etc, just a whole heck of a lot worse, etc...

    I think that's why God came to us a a man in the form of Jesus Christ, so we would no longer be so afraid, etc, and thinking He was always out to get us or was so very far high above us that He could never relate, or understand, or have compassion, etc... But Jesus was God in the form of a man, and tried to show us that "Hell" was not for people who could see Him as that man, or that kind of man, etc, but was more reserved for people who were very much more like the Pharisees, etc, than anyone else, etc, or common average everyday people, who had the best of intentions but would just sometimes sin still sometimes, etc, but had good hearts, hearts very much more better and much more loving and caring and kind and compassionate, than say, the "pharisitical" types, etc, who would not give up their list of "do not ever do's ot think about's", etc, nor "all the other old theories and ideas about God that I just described" either, etc, and would use that against the common people and sinners still, even after they were shown the truth and a "much better way", etc, they still would not give it/them up (the old ways) etc, and Jesus seemed to think "Hell" was very much more reserved for people like them and their types, much more so than anybody else, or anybody else's types, etc...

    Anyway, post is getting kind of long, but hopefully you get the point...?

    Discuss...?

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    And this person, if they were told about the Devil or Satan, would probably be going around "rebuking the Devil" all of the time for having constant thoughts about Pink Elephants in their head all of the time, when...?

    Well, when they themselves are the real true problem and the source of it all, etc... And when their "own theology" might be their one and only problem the whole time, etc...

    Anyway,

    God Bless!
     
  3. SarahsKnight

    SarahsKnight Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth. Supporter

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    Well said, Neogaia.
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Oh and, just as silly side note, that scene from "Dumbo" when I was young kid kind of traumatized me with all the Pink Elephants and the like, for a substantial period of time during my childhood, I even had nightmares about it for a while when I was a young kid, that didn't go away till I was about ten or twelve, etc, don't know why it freaked me out so bad, but it did...

    Anyway, just as a silly side note...

    God Bless!
     
  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Thanks,

    God Bless!
     
  6. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Probably for its sheer absurdity...? :elephant::elephant:
     
  7. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Member

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    Hi Neogaia! First of all let me say that there is no ill intent here in this response to your post.

    But it's a mixed bag in my opinion; the underlying thoughts of some of your material leads me to believe you were given bad teaching regarding the Old Testament, the law, and the present ministry of Jesus Christ. Before delving into those things, let me say that essentially - I agree that the phenomenon known as "white bear problem" in psychology is the wrong way to go about recovery. But I'm not convinced the God of the Old Testament is trying to give a "white bear" problem; in fact, I believe the God of the Old Testament is the exact same God of the New Testament with the now new blessing that He was willing to be incarnated fully as a Man, still fully God. In the present ministry of Jesus Christ, while it is true that the New Covenant seems to stand in contrast with the Old - it is because the Old demanded blood sacrifices that only Christ could fulfill. The demands of the law did not go away in the New Covenant; one might even argue that those demands were enhanced upon in the Sermon on the Mount. And quite clearly, Jesus said He also had 'commands' (“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15) and the Apostles reiterated that Christ had commands (Galatians 6:2).

    While I understand the nature of the commands are bound by love, I suggest that makes the case worse. If in the first instance we were not to commit adultery - that actually would be a better place to be. For I could probably control my body not to do so. But now that Christ has introduced this love aspect into it, He says that I ought not even "think" about committing adultery ... in fact one might wrongly argue that it is Christ bringing the Pink Elephant into the room.

    Some of my observations would be as follows:

    #1) To suggest the OT laws and regulations were merely do's and don't's (and I'm only claiming someone might misinterpret you as such) does not take into account the understanding of a Covenant.

    The people of Israel saw the other false gods around them and literally saw that the people had created sort of 'treaties' with their false deities. If you do this, then I will do so and so. And they also led to a kind of stability where they knew what was and was not expected of them.

    That is what Yahweh did for the people of Israel in the OT. Except that His covenant were eternal covenants. He told the people He would be their God and protect them, and they needed to obey His commands. (And not because he was a meany, but because those commands would keep them pure spiritually as well as physically and health wise.)

    But even in telling them to obey His commands, God *knew* they couldn't keep those commands. So what did He do in His graciousness? He provided the sacrificial system so that people could come with offerings and sacrifices through the priests and receive atonement for sin. Then once a year, the High Priest gave complete atonement for the sins of all the people. In this way, the people could remain a holy people and remain God's people.

    But alas the book of Hebrews tells us that these sacrifices in and of themselves were not the point; the point was that God would send a final sacrifice for sin so the people would not be burdened with having to offer sacrifices time and time again.

    #2) And the point of the regulations of the law were to keep God's people separate from the other nations around them, who had succumbed to pagan worship which involved gross immorality.

    #3) The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. We must be careful, for early heretics in the churches actually taught that the God of the Old Testament was a mean ogre who made these sorts of demands on people and the God of the New Testament was the merciful God. Two different gods in the heretics mind. We must be careful not to fall into this trap.

    This is the God of the Old Testament:

    "But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth." Psalm 86:15

    "All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies." Psalm 25:10

    #4) Hell is a real place; but it is not for those struggling with addictions (notice I use the word struggle). It is for those who have refused to accept the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. After all, if you say you don't want God - where else would God put us? We are at enmity with Him when we are born by our sin nature. We can all believe on Christ and avoid Hell; the Pink Elephant does not send us to hell. Our rejection of Christ does.

    #5) The Old Covenant was not a monumental failure; the monumental failure was that when the final sacrifice came, the Jews refused to believe Him. The OC was not based on fear, but rather on obedience. Failure to obey, struggles to obey, struggles to love God - this is not an OC thing. It is a human thing present in us no matter where on the timeline you find humans. Obedience, of course, presupposed you knew Yahweh as your God, not that you were trying to get into a relationship with Him through that obedience.

    Think about what is being said; if the OC was a monumental failure, this leads to all kinds of questions. Did God fail? Is God a failure? Can He not come up with something good and worthwhile? The OC did not fail.

    Part of the problem in my opinion is that we think 'Old' means outdated or inferior. Jews today call the Old Testament the First Testament.

    I'm not saying we should all want to live under the OC; I'm simply stating if it failed, it's not because God is a failure. Nor am I saying you are saying that, but it is a logical conclusion to the statement.

    #6) You are spot on, however, that there is a principle introduced to us in the New Testament of putting on and taking off. Putting on the old, putting on the new. Or Colossians 3 - set your mind on things above, not on earthly things. Or essentially, we start thinking good thoughts instead of evil thoughts.

    We concede that may not have been clear in the OT and most certainly, even if there are hints of it here and there - there was not an ever abiding Holy Spirit to aid in its prospect.

    #7) Again, I don't think the Old Testament is a "strict" list of do's and don'ts. The Pharisees, in their zeal to keep Torah and the Ten commandments, added a ton more commandments. While this was wrong, their original goal had a right heart intention. They didn't want to even come near disobeying God, so they figured the more commands they came up with, the more likely they would not disobey God.

    Remember also, not all the Pharisees were like Simon or Caiphas. We had Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. They believed Jesus, where the others did not.

    #8) And my final comments. The Old Testament was not bad, though the New Covenant is better not because it demands less than the OT - but because it provides more benefits that did not exist in the OT initially. Benefits such as the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the completed Bible, the fact that the Triune God of the universe comes and dwells inside of us, the New Man and New Nature that now *desires* to obey God in all of His ways, and the ever abiding Holy Spirit. And while it's true that a list of do's and don'ts do not have power to save us, I'm suggesting the OT should not be reduced to a list of do's and don'ts. It's a rich history of God's people along with their struggles; but OT Jews did not see God as a mean ogre making demands of them. They wanted to be in covenant with Him and saw the Law as a good and holy gift for them; their struggles with the law and failing to obey it, however, is a problem with their hearts and not a problem with the law itself.

    Here is the essential difference: the NT testament promise of a New Creation and a New Person and the Holy Spirit makes it that we can now obey God's law ... but we do not obey God's law by having phylacteries attached to our heads all day long. Instead, according to Paul in Galatians 5 - we do so by Walking in the Spirit ... then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, all of which are contrary to God's perfect law.

    Consider also that God's law opens up His heart so that we can see the true nature and character of who God is ... that is a PLUS because part of walking with Jesus Christ is understanding His character. We see God's character through Jesus' life (which was perfect obedience to the Law, by the way) *and* we see God's character through the perfection of the law. Again, why does He say we should not commit adultery? Because He Himself will always be faithful to us. Why again does He say do not kill? Because He Himself says He is Life ... and so forth ...

    In sum, the problem with the Old Covenant is not that God is a failure or that the OC is somehow a list of do's and don'ts given to us by a mean God; no, in fact. By itself, if we don't understand why God gave the law (to show us we are sinners), we could mistaken outer obedience to inner faith (the error of the Pharisee). No, the problem with the OC stems in our failure to keep it, not in His failure to be faithful or merciful. The NC has a greater demand than than the OC because it basically tells us our heart is the true breeding ground of sin, even if no one sees it. Thankfully, the same God of mercy of the OT has provided a Perfect Sacrifice so that those who believe on Him by faith (without works) will receive a new spirit, new nature, new desires, and the Holy Spirit all of which are keys to living a better victorious Christian life.


    God Bless![/QUOTE]

     
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    You're right, except Paul never did get with the program.
    He loved to point fingers at sinners and chatty women
    and blame others for problems.
     
  9. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 Member

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    Paul asked the women to be silent in the churches only because they followed an Old Synagogue tradition that men sit on one side and women sit on the other. Some of the women had questions and were shouting across the room to ask. It was chaotic; had nothing to do with the idea that women were whispering to their husbands, etc.

    As far as pointing fingers at sinners, could you provide an example?
     
  10. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When I turned on my computer and saw the title of this post, I burst out laughing. Dang it, now all day I'll be thinking about pink elephants!
     
  11. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    The “love your neighbor” is also in OT. And it includes the OT law, because if one loves, he doesn’t do anything wrong to others (murder, steal…).

    Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
    Romans 13:8-10

    I think your idea of “don’t even think…” is not what the Bible teaches. And I think it would be good to understand also these:

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23

    For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Mat. 5:20
     
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