Don't be a monastic...

Gxg (G²)

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So the local Priest I have been talking to thinks I am only attracted to Orthodoxy for monastic reasons(I would love to eventually be a monk). After talking to my wife he seems to think I am using monasticism as an escape from householder reality. He said to embrace being a householder. But the reason I am looking into Orthodoxy is for monasticism so I am a bit conflicted?
If I may say,

I think the wisdom of your priest is profound - my priest (who used to be a monk himself) noted the same to me when it came to the way that others who often say they are seeking monasticism are actually seeking something much deeper than that....and they cannot realize how they didn't have to separate from where they were necessarily in order to do it. One can be a monk in various ways without necessarily living in a monastery - I've known others who used to be monks in Orthodox monasteries for a significant amount of time before choosing to leave and later become married. They never forgot their experiences nor did the impact of it become forgotten - for when it comes to the spirituality of the monks. it is a living expression that is not limited to one place.

What's interesting to consider is that within Celtic culture, there were many cases where the monks were married. That may be shocking to others - but it should always be kept in mind that Celtic monasticism was radically different than what occurred within the Roman Empire. For much of Ireland was influenced by the monks of the Eastern desert, particularly the writings of John Cassian. When this form or expression of the faith returned to Ireland, it blended in with other local cultural understandings and ways of doing things, just as it has whereever it is taken. Additionally, the Celtic notion of "monastery" was worlds different than the typical medieval monastery which existed in Europe. It was a village model, rather than one where there were huge buildings of stone - and due to the makeup of the orders being more extensive (as they went beyond the model of Bishop, priest and deacon), there was room for more categories. Because the entire village was essentially a "monastery" for the Irish, it was a community endeavor - and as another noted best, "It was precisely because the monastic communities were like loving families that they had such a long-lasting and complete influence on the Irish people as a whole. ..These schools were the seedbeds of saints and scholars: literally thousands of young men and women received their formation in these communities. Some of them would stay and enter fully into monastic life, while others would return to their homes, marry, and raise their children in accordance with the profound Christian way of life that they had assimilated in the monastery" - the Irish Orthodox Church is rather fascinating when seeing its history.

But with that said, the asceticism that is developed within the monastery life is something that married men and married women both can walk in - with monasticism being walked out in that sense while also walking out their marriage. As, "those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else." In the Desert (as it concerns the Desert Fathers and Mothers), the life of renunciation and simplicity was the message for all Christians, whether married and caring for families or single. And St. John of Chrysostom did note once that “When Christ orders us to follow the narrow path, he addresses himself to all...the monastic and the lay person must attain the same heights...those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else."

For a good review:




As said there (from a brief excerpt):


1) We need to distinguish asceticism from monasticism. Many converts, awash in the wonderful spiritual literature of the Orthodox tradition, like thePhilokalia, the Ladder of Divine Ascent or Unseen Warfare, receive the impression that only monastics are called to be ascetics. Nothing could be further from the truth. All Christians are called to the ascetic life. In Matthew 16, Jesus gives us the fundamental law of Christian discipleship: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it"(Mt.16:24-25). The essence of the ascetic life is precisely denying oneself for Christ's sake and taking up one's cross to follow Him. There is no other way to follow Christ; it is ascetic through and through and all Christians, monastic, clergy and laity have the same path.

To show the universal nature of Orthodox ascesis and its intimate union with noetic prayer, let us look at the ringing declaration of St. Simeon of Thessalonica about praying with the Name of Jesus Christ (Little Russian Philokalia, Vol.4, p.146):

Let every pious man continually repeat this Name as a Prayer in his mind and with his tongue. Let him always constrain himself to do this while standing, traveling, sitting, resting, speaking, and doing all things. Then he shall find great peace and joy, as those who have occupied themselves with it know from experience. This activity is both for those in worldly life and for those monks who are in the midst of turmoil. Each one must strive to occupy himself with this Prayer, even if to a limited extent only. All, clergy, monks and laymen, must have this Prayer as a guide, practicing it according to their ability.

The monks are dedicated, and have an indispensable obligation to do this...The clergy must be diligent in this Prayer as though it were apostolic work and Divine preaching ...Let those who are in the world work at this as a sealing of themselves, a sign of their faith, a protector, sanctification, and expeller of every temptation...let everyone devote time, according to his ability, and have a certain amount of this Prayer as an obligation.(Italics added).

Following this, it does not seem necessary to cite the multitude of possible patristic sources which would confirm our point in order to conclude that the Christian way of ascesis, the way of the cross, is not automatically monasticism, which is but one of its forms, though the preeminent one. Ascesis is required of all Orthodox Christians.

2) We need also to distinguish between the institution of monasticism and the 'monastic ideal'. According to St. Theophan the Recluse, the institution of monasticism consists of the monastic ranks (novice, ryassaphore, full tonsure, great Schema), the monastic rule (the major points of which are fasting, obedience, prayer) and the monastic forms (cenobitic, eremetic, sketic). This is the 'external image' of monasticism. But the 'internal image' of monasticism, its essence, according to St. Theophan, is "a perpetual labor of conquering passions and uprooting them in order that one may preserve oneself before the face of God in a pure and immaculate state". Clearly single and married non-monastics do not live according to monasticism's external order, but who would dare to say that non-monastic Christians do not also have the responsibility to labor perpetually to conquer passions in order to preserve themselves before God in a pure and immaculate state? As Theophan himself says, "There are lay women in light-colored dresses who are nuns in spirit and there are monastics in black mantles who are laywomen at heart" (Kindling the Divine Spark). From this perspective, lay people, according to St. Theophan the Recluse, need not feel themselves excluded from any spiritual possibility simply on the basis of their life amid the cares of the world.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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“Some people living carelessly in the world have asked me: ‘We have wives and are beset with social cares, and how can we lead the solitary life?’ I replied to them: ‘Do all the good you can; do not speak evil of anyone; do not steal from anyone; do not lie to anyone; do not be arrogant towards anyone; do not hate anyone; do not be absent from the divine services; be compassionate to the needy; do not offend anyone; do not wreck another man's domestic happiness, and be content with what your own wives can give you. If you behave in this way, you will not be far from the Kingdom of Heaven.’” - The Ladder of Divine Ascent
Indeed...
 
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SeventhValley

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Hey, I'm living a pseudo-monastic life (by circumstance, not choice) want to trade? ;)

Bring on the family life!

That depends have you found who you are and are you comfortable being alone with yourself. I did not become myself before marriage. So I have been trying to grow up myself while also raising kids. Also with kids all of your shortcomings are magnified 10x. Any failure you do is not just a failure for yourself but also for your wife and kids.
Yes there are great things about the family life but everything comes at a price.
 
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SeventhValley

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Seventh Valley - I don't think your concern is totally wrong here. St. Paul does say that those who marry have divided interests, which you are experiencing. But, nevertheless, this is the path you willingly chose and so you should trust that it is the path that will lead to your salvation.

I hope so. Maybe I am just in a slump. Plus my wife is a Baptist/attending a Methodist church and dose not share my interest in Orthodoxy. Advice by priest(only constant attendance of Liturgy while also attending whatever church wife is attending will win her over).
 
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ArmyMatt

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some Church Father once pointed out that Lot was saved in the city, but sinned in the desert as a warning for those who jump into the monastic life too fast.

I hope so. Maybe I am just in a slump. Plus my wife is a Baptist/attending a Methodist church and dose not share my interest in Orthodoxy. Advice by priest(only constant attendance of Liturgy while also attending whatever church wife is attending will win her over).

prayers for you man
 
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SeventhValley

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Gxg (G²);66210064 said:
If I may say,

I think the wisdom of your priest is profound - my priest (who used to be a monk himself) noted the same to me when it came to the way that others who often say they are seeking monasticism are actually seeking something much deeper than that....and they cannot realize how they didn't have to separate from where they were necessarily in order to do it. One can be a monk in various ways without necessarily living in a monastery - I've known others who used to be monks in Orthodox monasteries for a significant amount of time before choosing to leave and later become married. They never forgot their experiences nor did the impact of it become forgotten - for when it comes to the spirituality of the monks. it is a living expression that is not limited to one place.

What's interesting to consider is that within Celtic culture, there were many cases where the monks were married. That may be shocking to others - but it should always be kept in mind that Celtic monasticism was radically different than what occurred within the Roman Empire. For much of Ireland was influenced by the monks of the Eastern desert, particularly the writings of John Cassian. When this form or expression of the faith returned to Ireland, it blended in with other local cultural understandings and ways of doing things, just as it has whereever it is taken. Additionally, the Celtic notion of "monastery" was worlds different than the typical medieval monastery which existed in Europe. It was a village model, rather than one where there were huge buildings of stone - and due to the makeup of the orders being more extensive (as they went beyond the model of Bishop, priest and deacon), there was room for more categories. Because the entire village was essentially a "monastery" for the Irish, it was a community endeavor - and as another noted best, "It was precisely because the monastic communities were like loving families that they had such a long-lasting and complete influence on the Irish people as a whole. ..These schools were the seedbeds of saints and scholars: literally thousands of young men and women received their formation in these communities. Some of them would stay and enter fully into monastic life, while others would return to their homes, marry, and raise their children in accordance with the profound Christian way of life that they had assimilated in the monastery" - the Irish Orthodox Church is rather fascinating when seeing its history.

But with that said, the asceticism that is developed within the monastery life is something that married men and married women both can walk in - with monasticism being walked out in that sense while also walking out their marriage. As, "those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else." In the Desert (as it concerns the Desert Fathers and Mothers), the life of renunciation and simplicity was the message for all Christians, whether married and caring for families or single. And St. John of Chrysostom did note once that “When Christ orders us to follow the narrow path, he addresses himself to all...the monastic and the lay person must attain the same heights...those who live in the world, even though married, ought to resemble the monks in everything else."

For a good review:

As said there (from a brief excerpt):

1) We need to distinguish asceticism from monasticism. Many converts, awash in the wonderful spiritual literature of the Orthodox tradition, like thePhilokalia, the Ladder of Divine Ascent or Unseen Warfare, receive the impression that only monastics are called to be ascetics. Nothing could be further from the truth. All Christians are called to the ascetic life. In Matthew 16, Jesus gives us the fundamental law of Christian discipleship: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it"(Mt.16:24-25). The essence of the ascetic life is precisely denying oneself for Christ's sake and taking up one's cross to follow Him. There is no other way to follow Christ; it is ascetic through and through and all Christians, monastic, clergy and laity have the same path.

To show the universal nature of Orthodox ascesis and its intimate union with noetic prayer, let us look at the ringing declaration of St. Simeon of Thessalonica about praying with the Name of Jesus Christ (Little Russian Philokalia, Vol.4, p.146):

Let every pious man continually repeat this Name as a Prayer in his mind and with his tongue. Let him always constrain himself to do this while standing, traveling, sitting, resting, speaking, and doing all things. Then he shall find great peace and joy, as those who have occupied themselves with it know from experience. This activity is both for those in worldly life and for those monks who are in the midst of turmoil. Each one must strive to occupy himself with this Prayer, even if to a limited extent only. All, clergy, monks and laymen, must have this Prayer as a guide, practicing it according to their ability.

The monks are dedicated, and have an indispensable obligation to do this...The clergy must be diligent in this Prayer as though it were apostolic work and Divine preaching ...Let those who are in the world work at this as a sealing of themselves, a sign of their faith, a protector, sanctification, and expeller of every temptation...let everyone devote time, according to his ability, and have a certain amount of this Prayer as an obligation.(Italics added).

Following this, it does not seem necessary to cite the multitude of possible patristic sources which would confirm our point in order to conclude that the Christian way of ascesis, the way of the cross, is not automatically monasticism, which is but one of its forms, though the preeminent one. Ascesis is required of all Orthodox Christians.

2) We need also to distinguish between the institution of monasticism and the 'monastic ideal'. According to St. Theophan the Recluse, the institution of monasticism consists of the monastic ranks (novice, ryassaphore, full tonsure, great Schema), the monastic rule (the major points of which are fasting, obedience, prayer) and the monastic forms (cenobitic, eremetic, sketic). This is the 'external image' of monasticism. But the 'internal image' of monasticism, its essence, according to St. Theophan, is "a perpetual labor of conquering passions and uprooting them in order that one may preserve oneself before the face of God in a pure and immaculate state". Clearly single and married non-monastics do not live according to monasticism's external order, but who would dare to say that non-monastic Christians do not also have the responsibility to labor perpetually to conquer passions in order to preserve themselves before God in a pure and immaculate state? As Theophan himself says, "There are lay women in light-colored dresses who are nuns in spirit and there are monastics in black mantles who are laywomen at heart" (Kindling the Divine Spark). From this perspective, lay people, according to St. Theophan the Recluse, need not feel themselves excluded from any spiritual possibility simply on the basis of their life amid the cares of the world.


Thanks :)
 
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FireDragon76

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You can learn things from monastics without being a monastic.

At one time I hard my heart set on monasticism and was convinced that was where I "should" be... which was very strange as I grew up in a nominally Methodist home, and its not really part of Protestant culture. It came and went throughout my life, off and on. But that's only because that's what I thought intensely spiritually people had to do. Being a minister wasn't an option, after all, because I wasn't really a people person.

In reality, being married is quite a chore, and there is a lot of good to do and many temptations to overcome. Don't belittle it.
 
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InnerPhyre

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That depends have you found who you are and are you comfortable being alone with yourself. I did not become myself before marriage. So I have been trying to grow up myself while also raising kids. Also with kids all of your shortcomings are magnified 10x. Any failure you do is not just a failure for yourself but also for your wife and kids.
Yes there are great things about the family life but everything comes at a price.

It sounds like you already have your ascetic struggle. Be a better father and husband. Love more fully than you have been the day before. None of us become our true selves until we become Jesus Christ, whether we are married, single, or monastics. All of those are paths to salvation because all of those situations allow us opportunities to become Jesus Christ to those around us. It sounds like you are looking for an escape and you think that this monastic route will be the holier path, but have you considered the fact that your difficulties in your family life may be the cross that you bear that will save you? Have you considered your children, who need a father, not a monk?
 
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E.C.

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That depends have you found who you are and are you comfortable being alone with yourself. I did not become myself before marriage. So I have been trying to grow up myself while also raising kids. Also with kids all of your shortcomings are magnified 10x. Any failure you do is not just a failure for yourself but also for your wife and kids.
Yes there are great things about the family life but everything comes at a price.
Just see the last thread I made asking for prayers. Like I said, by circumstance not choice.

I'd take on the family life because when you're single anything you do wrong becomes "no wonder you haven't found someone yet", or "no wonder you're still single". Plus there is no one to keep a check and balance with so one's arrogance and ego tend to grow exponentially.

My intent is not to put you down, merely to tell you that the grass is not greener on this side! :D Be happy with what you have because I'll bet anything that your wife and kids love you unconditionally if not nearly unconditionally. You have people who are very close to you that love you whom you get to see day in and day out. The only ones who are close to me that I know love me unconditionally are my parents on the opposite side of the country whom I'm only able to see at most twice a year. The joy I experience when I see them is amazing and I can only imagine what that joy would be like (or something like it since spousal relations are different from parental relations) to experience everyday.

Look at your life and what you've been blessed with from a different angle because that is could be the angle that helps you reconcile your love of family with love of monasticism.
 
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SeventhValley

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It sounds like you already have your ascetic struggle. Be a better father and husband. Love more fully than you have been the day before. None of us become our true selves until we become Jesus Christ, whether we are married, single, or monastics. All of those are paths to salvation because all of those situations allow us opportunities to become Jesus Christ to those around us. It sounds like you are looking for an escape and you think that this monastic route will be the holier path, but have you considered the fact that your difficulties in your family life may be the cross that you bear that will save you? Have you considered your children, who need a father, not a monk?

Good advice. I'll contemplate that :)
 
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